Evidence for God from Science

I know the issue of fitting Matthew 12:40 into a Friday/Sunday period has been discussed before, but does anyone have any historical documentation that shows that the phrase 3 days AND 3 nights was ever used to delineate a period of time which absolutely did not include at least parts of 3 light periods and least parts of 3 dark periods?

rstrats wrote:I know the issue of fitting Matthew 12:40 into a Friday/Sunday period has been discussed before, but does anyone have any historical documentation that shows that the phrase; “ 3 days AND 3 nights”, was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English?

You should find some answers you are looking for at http://www.christian-thinktank.com/q3rdday.html

In looking for an explanation that has the greatest explanitory power, what alternative would you propose which plausibly explains the following?

1) Why the written accounts of Jesus' life have these errors, if they are indeed errors?
2) Why no early writings exist from opponents pointing out this conundrum?
3) Why the Apostle Paul made use of the Jesus' resurrection, appealing to Scripture, desite the error? (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
4) Why the tomb was found empty?
5) Why the disciples were so convinced of this event that they were willing to testify even when faced with death?

Kurieuo,

re: “You should find some answers you are looking for at http://www.christian-thinktank.com/q3rdday.html“

I’m afraid I don’t find where the link provides an instance from the first century where the phrase “three days and three nights” is applied to a situation where it HAS to mean a length of time that doesn’t include at least parts of 3 light periods and at least parts of 3 dark periods.




re: “In looking for an explanation that has the greatest explanitory power, what alternative would you propose which plausibly explains the following?

1) Why the written accounts of Jesus' life have these errors, if they are indeed errors?
2) Why no early writings exist from opponents pointing out this conundrum?
3) Why the Apostle Paul made use of the Jesus' resurrection, appealing to Scripture, desite the error? (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
4) Why the tomb was found empty?
5) Why the disciples were so convinced of this event that they were willing to testify even when faced with death?”


I’m afraid I don’t see the relevance of the questions to the OP. I wonder if you might elaborate?

Kurieuo,

You have a question directed to you in post #3.

Rstrats,

I'm not sure if Kurieuo still posts here. You might want to try pming him.

Since its been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some documentation.

rstrats wrote:Kurieuo,

re: “You should find some answers you are looking for at http://www.christian-thinktank.com/q3rdday.html“

I’m afraid I don’t find where the link provides an instance from the first century where the phrase “three days and three nights” is applied to a situation where it HAS to mean a length of time that doesn’t include at least parts of 3 light periods and at least parts of 3 dark periods.

I thought this article was quite thorough personally.

rstrats wrote:

K wrote:In looking for an explanation that has the greatest explanitory power, what alternative would you propose which plausibly explains the following?

1) Why the written accounts of Jesus' life have these errors, if they are indeed errors?
2) Why no early writings exist from opponents pointing out this conundrum?
3) Why the Apostle Paul made use of the Jesus' resurrection, appealing to Scripture, desite the error? (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
4) Why the tomb was found empty?
5) Why the disciples were so convinced of this event that they were willing to testify even when faced with death?”

I’m afraid I don’t see the relevance of the questions to the OP. I wonder if you might elaborate?

Don't know if I jumped the gun in assuming what you believed with my response some years ago (probably not since you list yourself as a non-Christian), but is not your ultimate goal to try and fault the 3 days and nights? You may find fault with them, but there are still accepted facts amongst scholars that need explaining.

Kurieuo,

re: “...is not your ultimate goal to try and fault the 3 days and [3] nights?”

I think that Matthew 12:40 is to be taken literally - that at least parts of three light periods and at least parts of 3 dark periods are intended by the prophecy. I am not aware of any scripture or extra Biblical first century document that uses the phrase where it can only mean a length of time that doesn’t include at least parts of 3 light periods and at least parts of 3 dark periods. If there is such a scripture or document, I would like to see it. That is my purpose for starting this topic.

Since it has been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some documentation.

rstrats wrote:Since it has been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some documentation.

"three days and three nights" is a Hebrew idiom for any part of three days and three nights. IOW's any part of a day is counted as a day and a night. Jesus died on Friday before Saturday began = 1 day and 1 night, He was in the earth all of Saturday = 1 day and 1 night. He rose from the dead after 6PM on Saturday = 1 day and 1 night = 3 days and 3 nights.

christian2,

re: “‘three days and three nights’ is a Hebrew idiom for any part of three days and three nights.”

As asked in the OP, do you have any historical documentation from the first century or before, that shows that the phrase “3 days AND 3 nights” was ever used to delineate a period of time which absolutely did not include at least parts of 3 light periods and least parts of 3 dark periods?


re: “IOW's any part of a day is counted as a day and a night.”

As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when “nights” is added to “days” to yield the phrase “3 days AND 3 nights” it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where “day” refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and “night” refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase “ 3 days AND 3 nights” was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English. Again, if you have such documentation, I would very much like to see it.


re: “Jesus died on Friday...”

If by Friday you mean the 6th day of the week, Luke 24:21 indicates that the crucifixion could not have occurred any later than the 5th day of the week.

Jesus died before the Sabbath and his body had to be removed because the Sabbath was the next day, hence he died on Friday and was removed BEFORE the sunset on that day.
As for the Jonah quotation, it seems that the early church fathers didn't have any issues with this "possible contradiction", probably because they had frist hand account by the people that were there as to when it happened and how long Jesus was in the grave" and probably because they didn't read that passage in a literal AND concrete fashion, but simply in the light of the events as they KNEW had happened.
In short, I don't think THEY though that when Jesus mentioned that verse that Jesus was setting a PRECISE chronology of how long he was gonna be in the grave, but simply making a theological statement comparing what happened with Jonah and would happen to him.
By focusing on the "time frame" we are focusing on the wrong part of what was said, the wrong meaning as it were.

Read this for more on the Hebrew expression '3 days and 3 nights'.

rstrats wrote:christian2,

re: “‘three days and three nights’ is a Hebrew idiom for any part of three days and three nights.”

As asked in the OP, do you have any historical documentation from the first century or before, that shows that the phrase “3 days AND 3 nights” was ever used to delineate a period of time which absolutely did not include at least parts of 3 light periods and least parts of 3 dark periods?


re: “IOW's any part of a day is counted as a day and a night.”

As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when “nights” is added to “days” to yield the phrase “3 days AND 3 nights” it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where “day” refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and “night” refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase “ 3 days AND 3 nights” was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English. Again, if you have such documentation, I would very much like to see it.


re: “Jesus died on Friday...”

If by Friday you mean the 6th day of the week, Luke 24:21 indicates that the crucifixion could not have occurred any later than the 5th day of the week.

Try think link:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APConte ... rticle=756

Clip: The Scriptures contain several examples which clearly show that in Bible times a part of a day was often equivalent to the whole day.

According to Genesis 7:12, the rain of the Noahic Flood was upon the Earth “forty days and forty nights.” Verse 17 of that same chapter says it was on the Earth for just “forty days.” Who would argue that it had to rain precisely 960 hours (40 days x 24 hours) for both of these statements to be true?

In Genesis 42:17 Joseph incarcerated his brothers for three days. Then, according to verse 18, he spoke to them on the third day and released them (all but one, that is).

In 1 Samuel 30:12,13, the phrases “three days and three nights” and “three days” are used interchangeably.

When Queen Esther was about to risk her life by going before the king uninvited, she instructed her fellow Jews to follow her example by not eating “for three days, night or day” (Esther 4:16). The text goes on to tell us that Esther went in unto the king “on the third day” (5:1, emp. added).

Perhaps the most compelling Old Testament passage which clearly testifies that the ancients (at least occasionally) considered a portion of a twenty-four hour period “as the whole of it” is found in 2 Chronicles 10. When Israel asked King Rehoboam to lighten their burdens, he wanted time to contemplate their request, so he instructed Jeroboam and the people of Israel to return “after three days” (2 Chronicles 10:5, emp. added). Verse 12, however, indicates that Jeroboam and the people of Israel came to Rehoboam “on the third day, as the king had directed, saying, ‘ Come back to me the third day’ ” (emp. added). Fascinating, is it not, that even though Rehoboam instructed his people to return “after three days,” they understood this to mean “on the third day.”

From Acts 10, we can glean further insight into the ancient practice of counting consecutive days (in part or in whole) as complete days. Luke recorded how an angel appeared to Cornelius at “about the ninth hour of the day” (approximately 3:00 p.m.; Acts 10:3). “The next day” (10:9) Peter received a vision from God and welcomed visitors sent by Cornelius. “On the next day” (10:23) Peter and the servants of Cornelius departed for Caesarea. “And the following day they entered Caesarea” where Peter taught Cornelius and his household the Gospel (10:24). At one point during Peter’s visit,Cornelius spoke about his encounter with the angel of God. Notice carefully how he began the rehearsal of the event. He stated: “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour…” (10:30, NASB, emp. added). Although the event actually had occurred only 72 hours (or three literal days) earlier, Cornelius spoke of it as taking place “four days ago to this hour.” Why four days instead of three? Because according to the first-century method of reckoning time, a part of the first day and a part of the fourth day could be counted as whole days. Surely one can see how this information aligns itself perfectly with Jesus’ burial taking place on Friday and His resurrection occurring on Sunday. A part of Friday, all day Saturday, and a part of Sunday would be considered three days in ancient times, not one or two.

PaulSacramento,

re: “Jesus died before the Sabbath...”


How can you be absolutely certain that it wasn’t an annual sabbath which can fall on any day of the week?