Evidence for God from Science

I am asking this question because I am starting to doubt the Trinitarian theory. When I was younger (i.e. younger than 12), I had never heard of the concept of the Trinity. I have only known the idea for about four years and as I read the Bible, I read verses that tell me that Jesus, while being the Son of God, imply that he is not God Himself.

I know that such a question I pose you is not for humans to answer, but for God to, but I would like to hear some of your opinions regarding the matter.

Hey Telstra, didnt you read what B.W. posted in your last topic? im pretty sure everyones jaw dropped LOL well thats what happened to me at least ... but yeah that topic that B.W. posted in yours pretty much deadset proves the Trinity is real and alive.

I read BW's topic, but it didn't really prove it in my eyes. Well, it did, for a moment, but then I was reading the Book of John and I read John 3:16. You didn't really answer my question. I wasn't asking if it was real, but asking your opinions on whether or not non-trinitarians go to heaven.

Sorry i didnt answer your question. Well for me im not sure because if you dont believe in the Son of God then you are in trouble, i mean even Jesus stated in the Gospels that he is in the Father and the Father is in him, plus the Son begat from the Father which means he was not made like us or the angels but its more like we begat sons and daughtes and we make statues. Plus another thing you have to take into account is what Jesus did, He never sinned! no other prophet or anyone has done that, who could ever fulfills ones rules but the person who made the rules. Ummm im not sure that answered your question but could you at least give a scenario e.i. a non trinnitarian that still believes in what Jesus did. <<< if that was the case im not sure how to answer your question.

Ah, but here is what I know:

- Jesus is the Son of God.
- Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus.
- Jesus was begotten of God, his only begotten son.
- John 3:16 appears to state that Jesus was requested by God to do what he did, or he was a gift of sorts from God and from himself.
- Jesus died on the cross so our sins would not be counted against us.

I never once considered Jesus a mere prophet.

If someone had this ideology, what do you think would happen?

Whether or not you have formulated your concept of God and Jesus into a Trinitarian model (and you should), what you must believe about this particular topic to be saved is in Jesus' divinity. If you do not believe that He is God, you do not believe God's testimony concerning Jesus, and thus, you deny the Gospel (see John 3:33 on the relationship between believing God's testimony and believing in Jesus; cf. Gen 15:6).

So, for example, I would have no reason to doubt the salvation of Modalists, but Arians clearly do not believe the Gospel. The question is not whether or not Jesus is God. That is a given and part of the Gospel. The question is how to reconcile the fact that Jesus is God and yet there is only one God. The Trinity does that remarkably well, taking both Scripture and reason into account.

I would like to point out, though, that any Theistic conception of God must contain an idea of plurality within the persons of the Godhead if you don't want to be self-contradictory, which excludes Modalism from being a rational choice. This is because God cannot be dependent on anything and still be God. I'm sure you would agree that if He lacks anything, then He really isn't God at all, because He would not be the First and the Last--take that something away from Him, and you defeat God, which destroys His omnipotence; it also would imply that He isn't perfect, as a perfect thing can't lack anything. However, once you posit that God is perfect, lacking nothing, you must recognize the fact that God loves. But if that is true, then you have the problem of who does God love? He cannot love Himself only, as that would contradict the notion of love--love is always others-oriented. That is, love puts the needs of others before itself. Without others, there is no real concept of love at all. And while God loves His creation, you cannot say that is the only thing He loves or even the reason He created, because that would imply that God NEEDS us to be able to express His love, which means He lacks something without us, meaning that He is not perfect and therefore not God. Thus, there must be a plurality of persons within the Godhead itself. That is, there must be someone else within God for Him to love. Maybe there are two . . . maybe two hundred. This argument, so far as it goes, doesn't necessarily demand an answer; it only demands that there be a plurality. Of course, this is exactly what the Trinity is, so why should we be surprised to find the Bible teaching it? And why, then, should we deny it?

Trinitarianism is the logical extension of Biblical revelation. However, it is not independently a filter for salvation. If it were, it could be argued that the Christian faith began with it's formal formulation in the 3rd century and not with Christ himself. (it would also call into question every OT figure who weren't trinitarians.)

Whether anyone goes to heaven is based upon what God does on our behalf (grace). We can argue the mechanics (and we often do.) That to me is more a reflection of the influence of Greek Philosophy and Roman Law than it is the direct revelation of God.

So to answer your question directly as best I can; I believe some non-trinitarians will indeed go to heaven and I also believe there are some professed trinitarians who may have their hopes pinned on right belief (almost like a form of gnosticism) and who do not know Christ personally. Beyond that I say no more. God is the judge in terms of individuals and not me.

Jac3510 wrote: I would like to point out, though, that any Theistic conception of God must contain an idea of plurality within the persons of the Godhead if you don't want to be self-contradictory, which excludes Modalism from being a rational choice. This is because God cannot be dependent on anything and still be God. I'm sure you would agree that if He lacks anything, then He really isn't God at all, because He would not be the First and the Last--take that something away from Him, and you defeat God, which destroys His omnipotence; it also would imply that He isn't perfect, as a perfect thing can't lack anything.

Why would a non-biblical god necessarily need to be "perfect"?

Believe what you like about the three persons of the godhead, just be sure you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour...

Romans 10:8-13 "But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Belief in the truth of the resurrection is of paramount importance here. Be in no doubt.

I'd like to thank you all for not answering my question . In truth, an answer was not necessary, as I converted back to trinitarianism when I went to bed (i.e. before I read these posts).

I certainly have many more questions though. Here are some I'd like to shoot. If you have answers, please give them:

- The terms "father" and "son" imply a relationship between God and Jesus that one is older, or greater than the other. Why does God use these terms?
- God constantly says that Jesus is begotten of him, as if he created him, or Jesus did not exist until his conception. How can someone exist for ever, and be begotten? (please none of that stuff about being "eternally begotten")

Telstra Robs wrote:- The terms "father" and "son" imply a relationship between God and Jesus that one is older, or greater than the other. Why does God use these terms?

I'm still trying to figure that one out myself. Jesus said that He and the Father are One (John 10:30), and that the Father is greater than He (John 14:28, although Jesus' divinity was still concealed at this point). Jesus is also called Father in Isaiah 9:6. According to Paul, the nature of Jesus' relationship to the Father, at least in full, is beyond human conception (Phil. 2:6).

Telstra Robs wrote:- God constantly says that Jesus is begotten of him, as if he created him, or Jesus did not exist until his conception. How can someone exist for ever, and be begotten? (please none of that stuff about being "eternally begotten")

Christ is the Only Begotten Son in that He alone was begotten by the Holy Spirit within Mary's womb.

Asking this question is akin to asking how Jesus could be both fully God and fully man. It is logically impossible from a human standpoint, but God can make it happen, even if we rack our brains trying to understand how...

God is truly incomprehensible. The Bible is not meant to be fully understood, nor is God. That is what I have come to realise. I have come to believe that while the Trinity exists, God will not hold it against us if we do not understand who He is. If we understand the sacrifice of Jesus and that Jesus is the only begotten Son Of God, and we accept Him into our heart, our sins will be forgiven. I believe God understands that His nature is not comprehensible for us mere humans and if we cannot fully understand him, God would not hold it against us.

Is there even a hell in the first place? Why worry, I don't.

The11thDr. wrote:Is there even a hell in the first place? Why worry, I don't.

So, are you looking forward to oblivion?

Telstra Robs wrote:God is truly incomprehensible. The Bible is not meant to be fully understood, nor is God. That is what I have come to realise. I have come to believe that while the Trinity exists, God will not hold it against us if we do not understand who He is. If we understand the sacrifice of Jesus and that Jesus is the only begotten Son Of God, and we accept Him into our heart, our sins will be forgiven. I believe God understands that His nature is not comprehensible for us mere humans and if we cannot fully understand him, God would not hold it against us.

I disagree. God's nature is revealed to us by none other than God Himself through His self-revelation,

Exodus 33:18-20 "18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.” 19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Exodus 34:6-7 "And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”"

While we can not know everything about God, He has undoubtedly given us some compelling snippets of information about His nature.