Evidence for God from Science

First i want to say that God new that he was going to die on the cross, because he told us so in thesilonians, which means he new that Adam was going to eat of the fruit. Now in Adams defense I want to say that he had already decided not to eat of the fruit. And God new that Adam would not eat of the fruit of his own volition. so he needed a little push. ie, Satan. So God allowed Satan to trick Adam. Come on guys don't tell me that God who is all knowing did not know What Satan was going to do. So that means that he allowed it. I know , I know a lot of you guys believe that evil must be in the world so that we can have free will, however there is no scripture to back that up. The theory that without evil there is no free will is ridiculous, remember Adam had already decided not to eat of the fruit, so was that free will when Adam decided not to eat of the fruit on his own? I will put it to you this way, if I did to my child what God did to Adam I would be strapped down in a maximum security prison waiting for the lethal injection fluid to course through my veins. Its like telling my 5 year old daughter she can have all the milk she wants, but if you drink this chocolate milk you will surely die. And being a obedient child she decides to listen to her dady. However i then leave her with a child molester who convinces her to drink it, does this sound familiar. So either God is not all knowing and perfect and can make a mistake, or he is insane. I am looking forward to hear what you have to say. P.S I'm not a atheist. I pray in the spirit.

osirisravanz wrote:First i want to say that God new that he was going to die on the cross, because he told us so in thesilonians, which means he new that Adam was going to eat of the fruit. Now in Adams defense I want to say that he had already decided not to eat of the fruit. And God new that Adam would not eat of the fruit of his own volition. so he needed a little push. ie, Satan. So God allowed Satan to trick Adam. Come on guys don't tell me that God who is all knowing did not know What Satan was going to do. So that means that he allowed it. I know , I know a lot of you guys believe that evil must be in the world so that we can have free will, however there is no scripture to back that up. The theory that without evil there is no free will is ridiculous, remember Adam had already decided not to eat of the fruit, so was that free will when Adam decided not to eat of the fruit on his own? I will put it to you this way, if I did to my child what God did to Adam I would be strapped down in a maximum security prison waiting for the lethal injection fluid to course through my veins. Its like telling my 5 year old daughter she can have all the milk she wants, but if you drink this chocolate milk you will surely die. And being a obedient child she decides to listen to her dady. However i then leave her with a child molester who convinces her to drink it, does this sound familiar. So either God is not all knowing and perfect and can make a mistake, or he is insane. I am looking forward to hear what you have to say. P.S I'm not a atheist. I pray in the spirit.

Of course God knew. God knowing does not mean that God is responsible. God might not have created us at all, but He did. And I doubt He did this only for people to ungratefully turn around and say he is either inept or insane. God cannot do a logical contradiction. Have you considered that this world is the best possible world for God's intended purpose? Did Adam die on the day he ate of the fruit? No. But he did learn a valuable lesson about the benefits of obedience, while silmultaneously becoming aware of good and evil. This is the founding of consciousness. So, you may look at the story as a negative 'thing', but I see it as fundamental in giving us the 'instructions' for life.

You need to show that God is being logically inconsistent if you are to have a case. And I'm afraid you will not be able to show this.

Everything i said in my post was either factual or logical , based on the laws of deductive reasoning or biblical evidence. However your comment was pure conjecture.

osirisravanz wrote:Everything i said in my post was either factual or logical , based on the laws of deductive reasoning or biblical evidence. However your comment was pure conjecture.

Come on then, dismantle my post...I dare ya!

dude you sound like a petulant child. I dare you! grow up. At the least can u site any biblical references for your arguments?

osirisravanz wrote:dude you sound like a petulant child. I dare you! grow up. At the least can u site any biblical references for your arguments?

Hey, 'dude,' I'm still waiting for you to show me how my post was "pure conjecture", and how your post was, ahem, "logical'... Your OP was a complete waste of time. Why would I cite the bible when I'm merely interpreting the bible? Grow up? Says the child who spells you as "u"...? You say you're a Christian, but you're not really, are you? Now, be a good little soldier and try to address my response to your post. A word of warning: try aquainting yourself with basic Christian theology before you come onto a Christian site and engage with Christians. God knew what 'satan' would do, but you need to try to explain how God was wrong in allowing Adam to eat of the fruit. Show me where the contradiction lies...?

osirisravanz wrote:dude you sound like a petulant child. I dare you! grow up. At the least can u site any biblical references for your arguments?

Strong come back... Like watching the road from a helicopter, it's easy to see what lies ahead for a driver of a car. Obstacles, other paths and what not, and ultimately the helicopter pilot can see what's ahead for the driver of the car. It doesn't mean that the helicopter pilot programmed the driver, like a robot, to run into a wall however. The driver is still the driver of his car and can listen to the helicopter pilot or not for the best trip. Ultimately, however, the pilot can foresee what paths the car driver will face, and the decisions he/she will have to make and the choices that others have made that put him into his predicament. Why? Because the pilot can see everything whats up ahead, including what choices others have made in the past that effects our history today.

And sometimes the pilot has to intervene too...

More here...
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/p ... QaWSrKO6VT

osirisravanz,
You said

Now in Adams defense I want to say that he had already decided not to eat of the fruit.

I missed reading that in scripture. Can you give me the verse?

And God new that Adam would not eat of the fruit of his own volition. so he needed a little push. ie, Satan.

Here you make it sound as if God wanted to cause Adam to sin. That is not scriptural. By the way, Satan did not trick Adam. He "tricked" Eve (Gen. 3:1-6; 1 Timothy 2:14). Adam listened to Eve, not Satan.

So God allowed Satan to trick Adam. Come on guys don't tell me that God who is all knowing did not know What Satan was going to do. So that means that he allowed it.

Yes, God allowed it. So?

I know , I know a lot of you guys believe that evil must be in the world so that we can have free will, however there is no scripture to back that up. The theory that without evil there is no free will is ridiculous, remember Adam had already decided not to eat of the fruit, so was that free will when Adam decided not to eat of the fruit on his own?

Again, where did you read that Adam had decided not to eat the fruit? To have freedom of choice, there needs to be a choice. They had the choice to obey or disobey God. Evil did not exist when Satan chose to sin (Is. 14:12-17; Ezek. 28:12-19). Because of pride, Satan wished to take God's place.

I will put it to you this way, if I did to my child what God did to Adam I would be strapped down in a maximum security prison waiting for the lethal injection fluid to course through my veins.

Really? Do you have children? If so, then you give them the choice to obey or disobey you all the time. You tell them what the consequences will be for disobedience. If they disobey, you dish out those consequences. But God had set up, ahead of time, a way to remove the ultimate consequence (eternal separation from Him). Adam and Eve received spiritual death (separation from God relationally), but God allowed physical death (removed them from the tree of life) so that they had a way of redemption through the death of Jesus (Gen. 3:22-23; 1 Cor. 15:20-22).

Its like telling my 5 year old daughter she can have all the milk she wants, but if you drink this chocolate milk you will surely die. And being a obedient child she decides to listen to her dady. However i then leave her with a child molester who convinces her to drink it, does this sound familiar.

Actually you should have said murderer, not child molester, since Satan is a liar and murderer. But then again this is a bad analogy, because we are talking about adults, not children. The murderer would need to convince the one adult who had not heard the instructions, from some higher authority, to drink the milk and then that person convince the adult, who had directly received the instructions, that drinking it will be fine.

So either God is not all knowing and perfect and can make a mistake, or he is insane.

Neither one follows. Then all parents would be insane, because we know that much of the time our children will choose to disobey. Yet, we still punish them. Lock me up, I'm guilty.

osirisravanz wrote:Now in Adams defense I want to say that he had already decided not to eat of the fruit.

Can you show us how this is so?

osirisravanz wrote:And God new that Adam would not eat of the fruit of his own volition. so he needed a little push. ie, Satan. So God allowed Satan to trick Adam.

Yep, He knew this would happen.

osirisravanz wrote:Come on guys don't tell me that God who is all knowing did not know What Satan was going to do. So that means that he allowed it.

Yep.

osirisravanz wrote:The theory that without evil there is no free will is ridiculous

Do you imagine that because you say something is ridiculous then that makes it so? Can you show how it is ridiculous?

osirisravanz wrote:remember Adam had already decided not to eat of the fruit

Did he? Where does Adam affirm this?

osirisravanz wrote:so was that free will when Adam decided not to eat of the fruit on his own?

When did Adam "decide not to eat of the fruit on his own"?

osirisravanz wrote:I will put it to you this way, if I did to my child what God did to Adam I would be strapped down in a maximum security prison waiting for the lethal injection fluid to course through my veins. Its like telling my 5 year old daughter she can have all the milk she wants, but if you drink this chocolate milk you will surely die.

But Adam did not die! So what's your point?

osirisravanz wrote:And being a obedient child she decides to listen to her dady. However i then leave her with a child molester who convinces her to drink it, does this sound familiar. So either God is not all knowing and perfect and can make a mistake, or he is insane. I am looking forward to hear what you have to say.

There's not alot to say - you're terribly confused.

osirisravanz wrote:P.S I'm not a atheist. I pray in the spirit.

Is that right?

Do you know what it means to pray in the spirit? How would a atheist know what that means? I pray in the spirit. Lets see do atheist know what it really means "by his stripes we are healed" no they don't. We are healed from Sin. Would an atheist know what faith really is? No. I'm going to do you a favor and give you what God gave to me about faith. I am going to break down this scripture for you. "faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen" the first question is what is the substance of something? for example what is the substance of bread or something less complicated like a table. basically what it is made of or its main ingredient. So now the next question is what is the substance of hope? simple the substance of hope is desire or want. Now we need to know what is evidence. Sounds simple right? it is. proof. Evidence is reality, facts or proof. So what could be the evidence of things not seen? ie. the air we breath. So in short faith is having a desire for something and knowing that it is real. Now can I please fit into your category of a Christian?

osirisravanz wrote:Do you know what it means to pray in the spirit? How would a atheist know what that means? I pray in the spirit. Lets see do atheist know what it really means "by his stripes we are healed" no they don't. We are healed from Sin. Would an atheist know what faith really is? No. I'm going to do you a favor and give you what God gave to me about faith. I am going to break down this scripture for you. "faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen" the first question is what is the substance of something? for example what is the substance of bread or something less complicated like a table. basically what it is made of or its main ingredient. So now the next question is what is the substance of hope? simple the substance of hope is desire or want. Now we need to know what is evidence. Sounds simple right? it is. proof. Evidence is reality, facts or proof. So what could be the evidence of things not seen? ie. the air we breath. So in short faith is having a desire for something and knowing that it is real. Now can I please fit into your category of a Christian?

Faith can mean a number of things. Faith affects the whole of man's nature. Your definition is far too narrow.

"Faith commences with the conviction of the mind based on adequate evidence: it continues in the confidence of the heart or emotions based on conviction, and it is crowned in the consent of the will, by means of which the conviction and confidence are expressed in conduct."

Anglican theologian, W.H. Griffith-Thomas

Your poor grasp of the basics of 'the Fall' simply leaves me reeling ...

look all i want is for u guys to back up your theories with scripture not some anglican theolosian

Some questions have been asked of you as well regarding scripture.

May I ask what you think constitutes becoming a Christian?

if my definition of faith is so narrow how is it that Hebrews 11:1 confirms it

New International Version (©1984)
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Faith assures us of things we expect and convinces us of the existence of things we cannot see.

osirisravanz wrote:First i want to say that God new that he was going to die on the cross, because he told us so in thesilonians, which means he new that Adam was going to eat of the fruit. Now in Adams defense I want to say that he had already decided not to eat of the fruit. And God new that Adam would not eat of the fruit of his own volition. so he needed a little push. ie, Satan. So God allowed Satan to trick Adam. Come on guys don't tell me that God who is all knowing did not know What Satan was going to do. So that means that he allowed it. I know , I know a lot of you guys believe that evil must be in the world so that we can have free will, however there is no scripture to back that up. The theory that without evil there is no free will is ridiculous, remember Adam had already decided not to eat of the fruit, so was that free will when Adam decided not to eat of the fruit on his own? I will put it to you this way, if I did to my child what God did to Adam I would be strapped down in a maximum security prison waiting for the lethal injection fluid to course through my veins. Its like telling my 5 year old daughter she can have all the milk she wants, but if you drink this chocolate milk you will surely die. And being a obedient child she decides to listen to her dady. However i then leave her with a child molester who convinces her to drink it, does this sound familiar. So either God is not all knowing and perfect and can make a mistake, or he is insane. I am looking forward to hear what you have to say. P.S I'm not a atheist. I pray in the spirit.

Regarding choice - ability to reason and think independently is well attested in the bible. For example:

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Joshua 24:15 -And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Job 34:4 - Let us choose justice for ourselves; Let us know among ourselves what is good.

Job 34:33 - Should He repay it according to your terms, Just because you disavow it? You must choose, and not I; Therefore speak what you know.

Proverbs 1:29 - Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD,

Proverbs 3:31 - Do not envy the oppressor, And choose none of his ways;

Isaiah 56:4 - For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,

AMG word studies defines choice as used in Old Testemant:

bāḥar: A verb whose meaning is to take a keen look at, to prove, to choose. It denotes a choice, which is based on a thorough examination of the situation and not an arbitrary whim. Although this word rarely means to prove, it does communicate that sense in Isa_48:10, where it describes the way God tested Israel in order to make a careful choice: "I have tested you in the furnace of affliction." In most contexts, the word suggests the concept to choose or to select. It can designate human choice (Gen 13:11; Deu 30:19; Joshua 24:15; Jdg 10:14) or divine choice (Deu 7:7; 1Sa 2:28; Neh 9:7; Psa 135:4); however, in either case, it generally has theological overtones. This word can also have the connotations to desire, to like, or to delight in. A good example is Isa_1:29, where the word is in synonymous parallelism with ḥāmaḏ (H2530), meaning to desire or take pleasure in.

Eph 5:15, 16, 17, 18 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit....

Denotes choice that you can either walk circumspectly or not, be a fool or wise, redeem the time or not, be unwise or understand what the will of the Lord is, get drunk or not...

Romans 6:11, "So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

Romans 6:15, 16 - "What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" ESV

Romans 6 likewise denotes choice…

Jesus said in John 3:16 those that believe in him denotes choice that there will those that do and those that will not.

If God denies choice — how can he be truly just?
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