Evidence for God from Science

This post is on behalf of my wife, whom I adore with all my heart but despair about, or possibly envy, the simplicity of her theology.

She asked me if animals go to heaven within the Christian framework. I said no. So she asked the minister at the local church. She also said no. She has said in no uncertain terms that her holding any value in Christianity is dependent upon this.

My biblical knowledge is poor, though improving. I have said that neither my comment nor that of the minister holds any ground without scriptural basis. And whilst the minister may have sound scriptural backing, which weren't mentioned, my comments are based on rough conjecture.

So

Can you shed some light upon this?

Proinsias wrote:This post is on behalf of my wife, whom I adore with all my heart but despair about, or possibly envy, the simplicity of her theology.

She asked me if animals go to heaven within the Christian framework. I said no. So she asked the minister at the local church. She also said no. She has said in no uncertain terms that her holding any value in Christianity is dependent upon this.

My biblical knowledge is poor, though improving. I have said that neither my comment nor that of the minister holds any ground without scriptural basis. And whilst the minister may have sound scriptural backing, which weren't mentioned, my comments are based on rough conjecture.

So

Can you shed some light upon this?

In Revelation 19:11, Jesus is riding on a some kind of horse out from heaven - so there would be animals there. Next if God wants animals there - why not?

I would be hard to image heaven without some sort of animals in it...

Interesting is Rev 19:4 -- living creatures or beast are there - hmmmm....???? These Maybe the ones mentioned in Ezekiel 1:5 but I'm unclear if this is so as the Greek text uses the word for animal, beast and the Hebrew uses a word that denotes some sort of living creature most often refers to animals or can refer to a beastly looking being as Ez 1:5 does.

Anyways - for some odd reason, it is people's opinions that rule out animals in heaven. Other than Elijsha see chariots of fire 2 Kings 6:17 pulled by horses that came from heaven and what Revelations decribes Jesus riding on a white horse out from heaven and Isaiah 66:15 descibes chariots from heaven - must be pulled by something there does appear that there are some type of animals in heaven.

Psalms 50:10 states all the animals belong to God and since this is so - it would be hard to image heaven without what God owns in it... If God wants animals in heaven - why not our pets. Love the day to see my dogs again!

Don't let the naysayers get your wife down...

Lastly, I cannot find any bible verses that actually state this: There are no animals in heaven maybe I haven't found the verse but can't find one. However I find references to some sort of animals being in heaven...
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Well I personally believe I will get to see my pets alongside me in heaven.

CS Lewis made mention somewhere that he wouldn't be surprised if like on account of Christ we inherit eternal life, so too on account of us and our knowing them in this life animals can also be resurrected into eternal life.

Note, this is nowhere mentioned in the Bible. However, if one believes animals possess souls (albeit not to the extent of human beings), then it stands to reason animals too could be resurrected.

Proinsias wrote:She asked me if animals go to heaven within the Christian framework. I said no. So she asked the minister at the local church. She also said no. She has said in no uncertain terms that her holding any value in Christianity is dependent upon this.

My biblical knowledge is poor, though improving. I have said that neither my comment nor that of the minister holds any ground without scriptural basis. And whilst the minister may have sound scriptural backing, which weren't mentioned, my comments are based on rough conjecture.

I love animals, especially dogs, cats and horses. But I fear the animals of this world, not just our own pets (seems a little selfish just to worry about our own animals), will not make it to heaven. God did not reconcile Himself to cats by becoming a cat. To think that cats might be saved would seem to me to be to misunderstand what salvation is all about. Not even some very nice humans will make it to heaven, so how we can think cats might is a little beyond me.

I'd love to be wrong on this.

"She has said in no uncertain terms that her holding any value in Christianity is dependent upon this."

May I ask, is your wife really serious when when she says this? Is she actually willing to forsake eternity with you for the sake of this?

But we will be in a new creation and a new earth, so in that regard I would think that there would be some other life besides humans....

Just because they wouldn't be redeemed per se doesn't rule out there being either pets or animals and plants (or something like entirely) in the new creation.

I tend to like these verses..

Romans 8:21 the creation (meaning all of creation, animals, etc.) looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

Let's not forget what Isaiah said about animals in paradise too..

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Also... I've heard of people who have died and gone to heaven and have seen animals up there, including all nations of people.. Blacks, whites, asian, and the list goes on...

I agree Zoe. I think the new order will have all of that.

zoegirl wrote:But we will be in a new creation and a new earth, so in that regard I would think that there would be some other life besides humans....

Just because they wouldn't be redeemed per se doesn't rule out there being either pets or animals and plants (or something like entirely) in the new creation.

Quite true... In fact I think God will honor our hearts.. Whatever our hearts desire.. And if it includes animals. So be it... They are God's creations too..

It's beautiful.. No more death!!

There is an interesting book out there for anyone interested called "heaven in not my home" which sounds like an awful title but focuses on the idea that we are not meant to be some ethereal beings floating on clouds. Rather we are mean tto be redeeming creation and preparing for a new earth.

He compares the wrong theology and image of heaven to that of a lifeboat, whereas the more accurate version should be that of Noah's ark, of saving part of creation for the new earth.

I'm probably not doing the greatest job summarizing it bu that's at lesat some of the ideas presented in the book.

Gman wrote:

zoegirl wrote:
Quite true... In fact I think God will honor our hearts.. Whatever our hearts desire.. And if it includes animals. So be it... They are God's creations too..

It's beautiful.. No more death!!

Gman, a Christian neighbour once said to me that he really hoped God would permit his Muslim friend into heaven. I can say that his heart desired this. He asked me what I thought and I told him that I seriously doubted his Muslim friend would be saved...Was I wrong?

An animal is quite different from a human.

I would say that including animals of some sort and plants would be for the same reason God did so for this creation.

DannyM wrote:

Gman wrote:

zoegirl wrote:
Quite true... In fact I think God will honor our hearts.. Whatever our hearts desire.. And if it includes animals. So be it... They are God's creations too..

It's beautiful.. No more death!!

Gman, a Christian neighbour once said to me that he really hoped God would permit his Muslim friend into heaven. I can say that his heart desired this. He asked me what I thought and I told him that I seriously doubted his Muslim friend would be saved...Was I wrong?

Well.. I think that might be a bit different with humans than with animals that have no morality. Animals can't sin and are not judged like humans are...

But then there is this verse in the Bible that shows that the believer in a family can sanctify another member who is an unbeliever. I don't think this can pertain to a neighbor however..

1 Corinthians 7:14

Again, I really don't know how God is going to judge all this.. Can a Muslim make it to heaven? While I would say no, there might be some Muslims that are living more of a Godly life than a Christian. Who am I to judge? But their doctrine IS corrupt. Just like the Mormon doctrine or any other doctrine outside of Christ's. But when it get's to the person, we need to be very careful how we judge others. It could actually be that THEY are saved... Let God be the judge of that...

Gman wrote:

DannyM wrote:
Gman, a Christian neighbour once said to me that he really hoped God would permit his Muslim friend into heaven. I can say that his heart desired this. He asked me what I thought and I told him that I seriously doubted his Muslim friend would be saved...Was I wrong?

Well.. I think that might be a bit different with humans than with animals that have no morality. Animals can't sin and are not judged like humans are...

But then there is this verse in the Bible that shows that the believer in a family can sanctify another member who is an unbeliever. I don't think this can pertain to a neighbor however..

1 Corinthians 7:14

Again, I really don't know how God is going to judge all this.. Can a Muslim make it to heaven? While I would say no, there might be some Muslims that are living more of a Godly life than a Christian. Who am I to judge? But their doctrine IS corrupt. Just like the Mormon doctrine or any other doctrine outside of Christ's. But when it get's to the person, we need to be very careful how we judge others. It could actually be that THEY are saved... Let God be the judge of that...

I can't really disagree with you. The only thing I have trouble with is seeing how felix the cat will meet his owner in heaven. I certainly see plenty of animals in the new creation - your previous verses pretty much wrap that up - but I see this as a being very much a new creation with regards to animals, and not animals from this life... Again, I'd very much like to be wrong on this...

DannyM wrote:I can't really disagree with you. The only thing I have trouble with is seeing how felix the cat will meet his owner in heaven. I certainly see plenty of animals in the new creation - your previous verses pretty much wrap that up - but I see this as a being very much a new creation with regards to animals, and not animals from this life... Again, I'd very much like to be wrong on this...

Well don't get too discouraged.. If it can happen with an unbeliever, perhaps it can happen with other things too..

There is hope..

1 Corinthians 2:9

Thanks for the info. Just what I was looking for.