Evidence for God from Science

why not?

I asked a member of clergy and he seemed to have no problem with the idea, I've become incredibly sceptical over the last two years, is that part of becoming 21?

So do you have to believe in God/supernature to be a follower of Jesus?

Heres another way of thinking about it, What if there was a person who lived as though god existed and did not believe in him and another who believed in god and lived a "godless" life...Who is being more moral? (by human standards and not some divine ultra strict unfair godly gold standard!)

Aren't actions more important than what we believe? This is why I like the shorter gospel of Mark, because its about Jesus' actions, in my mind it paints a more human picture than the other gospels especially John's(too much embellishment?)

S0 let us reason.

Cactus wrote:why not?

I asked a member of clergy and he seemed to have no problem with the idea, I've become incredibly sceptical over the last two years, is that part of becoming 21?

there's nothing wrong with examination and even skepticism, Thomas doubted and wanted evidence and was given it. But skepticism cannot be the end of the journey, it should only fuel us finding the solution.

So do you have to believe in God/supernature to be a follower of Jesus?

Heres another way of thinking about it, What if there was a person who lived as though god existed and did not believe in him and another who believed in god and lived a "godless" life...Who is being more moral? (by human standards and not some divine ultra strict unfair godly gold standard!)

The key to following Jesus is the fact that He *is* divine, that He is fully God and fully man, this is key to being a christian. It is His identify that allows Him to be the atoning sacrifice, to live the perfect life, die, and resurrect. That is the foundation of Christian beliefs.

And the two scenarios you present are certainly not the only ones out there and in themselves incomplete. In the first scenario, the person is certainly not a Christian and in the second, the person who deliberately lives a godless life doesn't really believe in God.

Aren't actions more important than what we believe? This is why I like the shorter gospel of Mark, because its about Jesus' actions, in my mind it paints a more human picture than the other gospels especially John's(too much embellishment?)

S0 let us reason.

But what you believe about Christianity is incomplete and missing some key concepts. We cannot be reconciled just by thinking that Christ is a good person, we cannot be reconciled to God by being a *relatively* moral person (by whose definition? how moral?) . Beliefs are important and it's why you must allow your skepticism to prompt digging through this and not resting. Because if you truly reject Christ's atoning work and identity, then stop calling yourself a Christian.

And if we truly believe there isn't God, why in the world do you care about morality anyway? Other to be a *relatively* moral person (which certainly means that you can cheat, lie, and lust all you want as long as no one finds out or you are clever enough about it)

zoegirl wrote: there's nothing wrong with examination and even skepticism, Thomas doubted and wanted evidence and was given it. But skepticism cannot be the end of the journey, it should only fuel us finding the solution.

Being Critical has lead me to reject god, but not to reject the value of following the way of Jesus. If at a later date it means the opposite, that I accept god but not Jesus would I be better off or worse of? This story I would like much more if Jesus said that Thomas was blessed for "enquiring", rather than people who believe without seeing(Thomas got the evidence according to the story, which kind of makes him a lucky git)

zoegirl wrote:
The key to following Jesus is the fact that He *is* divine, that He is fully God and fully man, this is key to being a Christian. It is His identify that allows Him to be the atoning sacrifice, to live the perfect life, die, and resurrect. That is the foundation of Christian beliefs.

How far does the mythology of the bible go? Is it just the poetical stories that are myths? Was there a Gideon? a Noah? If you could look at the world and say, oh the real world is probably that way instead, why not adjust a good belief to the reality rather than adjust the reality to what you believe?

zoegirl wrote: And the two scenarios you present are certainly not the only ones out there and in themselves incomplete. In the first scenario, the person is certainly not a Christian and in the second, the person who deliberately lives a godless life doesn't really believe in God.

But what you believe about Christianity is incomplete and missing some key concepts. We cannot be reconciled just by thinking that Christ is a good person, we cannot be reconciled to God by being a *relatively* moral person (by whose definition? how moral?) . Beliefs are important and it's why you must allow your skepticism to prompt digging through this and not resting. Because if you truly reject Christ's atoning work and identity, then stop calling yourself a Christian.

I wouldn't like to offend, if you find the idea of a "Christian Atheist" to be one that upsets you, Then how about I disassociate the oxymoron and just say instead "Atheist who follows Jesus", is that enough for you to tolerate or am I not even allowed to mix such "godlessness" with what you would call a "divine" person.

zoegirl wrote: And if we truly believe there isn't God, why in the world do you care about morality anyway? Other to be a *relatively* moral person (which certainly means that you can cheat, lie, and lust all you want as long as no one finds out or you are clever enough about it)

Sure you can lie. Why do you ABSOLUTELY need to be honest 100% of the time? Even the "prophets" knew that lying can be a Virtuous or Noble action. Elijah(?) For instance saves a cave full of 100 of the "prophets of the lord" by lying that he is the "last one left", there are situations where a flexible morality is what is called for? The Books of proverbs even says that there is a "time for war" and a "time for killing"

Why do I need the promise of heaven and the threat of hell? Does Humanity still need carrots and sticks? I would of thought that most sane people would think that the promise of a better Earth and the continuation of the human species are factors in morality, God doesn't need to factor into this. People used to use god to Justify terrible deeds, why does this need to continue to happen? At times it has been perfectly acceptable to "torture" even to bring people to god? Yea why worry about the present when you have a future eternal life to worry about? also why worry about the Environment when you have been commanded to "go forth and multiply" and "you have dominion" etc

Cactus wrote:

zoegirl wrote: there's nothing wrong with examination and even skepticism, Thomas doubted and wanted evidence and was given it. But skepticism cannot be the end of the journey, it should only fuel us finding the solution.

Being Critical has lead me to reject god, but not to reject the value of following the way of Jesus.

What is the "way of Jesus"? An accurate understanding of this I think would necessitate belief in God.

I suppose that being a follower of the "Way" would mean in essence trusting what Jesus said, even if he was Just a "Man."

Really we can boil the world down to some sort of horrible Hopeless Atheistic landscape, but if we realised who we are then there would be a bit more hope in the world. I can not box my Mind, I would want it to flow at least like a fluid. Rigidly following dogma or a world view leaves you unopened to alternatives.

If I was really a huge fan of Evolutionary Biology, then:

Man would just be a species of Ape,
Man would also just be a Animal.

But we aren't are we? We are more than the sum of our biological parts, something special. I disagree with many of the ideas in the bible when I actually bother to think about it. But it does have a brighter side too, so if there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow why shall you stop me?

Also pick up the origin of species its a funny book LOL.

PS. Humans evolved, there are "transitional" forms its a fact. What god had to "create" would require an interesting answer.

Cactus wrote:I suppose that being a follower of the "Way" would mean in essence trusting what Jesus said, even if he was Just a "Man."

.

This is not something you can compromise on. Trusting in what AJesus said means believing/trusting that HE IS FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN, as He himself says in scripture.

I.E. Following CHrist means accepting what HE said about Himself, believing it, otherwise, CHrist is a liar! You cannot compromise on this. Either what He said about himself is true or He is a lunatic (mad, delusional, whatever you call someone who claims He is God1), lied about it to ALL of His followers, essentially misleading them to their deaths (you really want to follow someone who deceived His own followers?), or He is who He said He was.

TO follow Him means accepting Him as LORD!

Actually this is something I can "compromise" on. Is this you telling me that I am not free to believe what I want to believe? I suppose you live in America and think that freedom of religion only applies to one rigid thing, Is it possible for you to think? The bible is a work of man. Men are prone to corruption. Jesus could of very well of been just a good person.

So why not, Jesus and NO Christ? Why do adults insist on removing their own responsibility. Its okay, whenever you do something wrong its not your fault. Its Satan's fault! Its the pixies fault! Magic sky daddy is to blame!(ok this might be taking it a little to far)

Here is something for you to think about, is Satan REALLY evil? Read the book of Job, he seems to work WITH god and not against him. Was Judas betraying Jesus for a mere 30 shekels or was when Jesus saying that he was going to betray him not a prophesy that he would but more of a command to do just that...Its very possible that a man can be vilified but be a exceptionally good individual(Jesus himself for instance).

I want to know, who is being flexible here, me or you? I can imagine a world without and with a god. My reason tells me which reality to accept right now, are you listening to your emotions or your reason?

If you want to interpret scripture that way, that is your prerogative. I am simply saying that, by Christ's OWN words, he is not just a man. So you cannot in one breath say you want to follow Christ and WHO HE IS, when in scripture Christ establishes His own deity.

If you can, through scripture, show that Christ was not proclaiming His deity, then go right ahead.

Cactus wrote:I suppose that being a follower of the "Way" would mean in essence trusting what Jesus said, even if he was Just a "Man."
...
I disagree with many of the ideas in the bible when I actually bother to think about it. But it does have a brighter side too, so if there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow why shall you stop me?

Well, I never wanted to stop you.

You previously stated that you reject God but follow the way of Christ, so you must have some good reasons for believing "the way of Christ" is not contradictory to "excluding God's existence" given Christ's teachings about God and that He was a rabbi.

So perhaps you did not really mean to say you follow the way of Christ? If I understand your further words correctly, perhaps what you really meant is that the "brighter side" (hopefulness?) of Christ's message appeals to you, even if everything is ultimately hopeless. Sadly, appeal doesn't have much bearing on truth. Truth is something Christ was most interested in, even declaring Himself to be the way, the truth and the life.

While there may be hopelessness in Atheism, I can see major perks. For one, if true, Atheism is very freeing to the point nothing I do will ultimately matter. Whether I am like Hitler or a Mother Teresa, both meet the same end and when our universe burns out in a cold death nothing will be remembered. Realising this, I should do away with my moral conscience as it is simply a hindrance to living my life the way I want to. There is also some relief in thinking I will never wake once dead, especially to be judged by someone like God who holds my eternal destiny in His hands.

So I am not sure whether the attraction of Christianity outweighs the attraction of Atheism when it comes to living this life.

oh dont make the mistake that if you don't have an eternal life and judgement after this one then what you do doesn't matter. It does matter.(your impact on the world certainly matters!)

If we live in a Decent manner as Jesus prescribes and trust that there is either no god Or a Benevolent one...Then how can That being eternal torture us? How is Hell merciful? If the overwhelming evidence for god comes after death. If there is no god and we live in a way that fits A faithful life full of virtue then we have made the world a better place, but if there is a kind and merciful god waiting for us, I am sure he would be able to heal us even despite our flaws.

I love the way the old testament God seems to abhor hatred(lol!). He hates it when people kill each other so much that he must eliminate them so they cant do it. The images of god you get from the old testament make you think...how did people fall for these other people who was just out to manipulate them?(that is if miracles really can't happen)

zoegirl wrote:
The key to following Jesus is the fact that He *is* divine, that He is fully God and fully man, this is key to being a christian. It is His identify that allows Him to be the atoning sacrifice, to live the perfect life, die, and resurrect. That is the foundation of Christian beliefs.

Zoegirl has a point. If you only believe that Christ was a good teacher and taught good morals, you're not a Christian by Christ's definition (and, since you are following what He taught, wouldn't you use his definitions?).

Think about it this way: if you use the logic of calling yourself a follower of what someone SAYS, not who someone IS, then you could easily accept teachings of the Buddha, the Bhagavad Gita, or any other religion out there. Picking and choosing from what "sounds good" will result in a mixed salad of morals that will serve no other purpose than making you feel good about yourself for living a moral life. Essentially, if you are going to say you belong to a faith because of a few things you agree with, why confine yourself to one? This is why it doesn't make sense to say you a Christian because you agree with some things Christ said. I am a Christian and I agree with some of Buddhism's morals (like their treatment of material possessions), but that doesn't make me Buddhist.

I'll keep you in my prayers. It sounds like you're trying to make Christianity a "mind" thing when it's really a "spirit" thing.

How do you know that Christ in the bibles definition is the same as the real Jesus' Definition? Are you certain or is this just something you believe?

You have yet to show where in scripture it declares that Christ isn't Lord!!

You have already shown disdain for the Old testament and now you essentially, willingly, gladly, throw the new testament conveniently under the bus because you happen to not want to believe in it. Nice cherry-picking....why in the world would you even *want* to be called a Christian?!??! You have such disdain for the scripture!

So all of the evidence that shows that Christ HIMSELF declares His deity are discarded in favor of some vague ambiguous statement that what he said wasn't really what He said.

So do you also willingly disregard eyewitness testimony in a trial just because you don't want to accept what the testimony proclaims???

Either proudly wear your atheist title and reject Christianity as lovely made up stories, or embrace Christianity. You cannot be an atheist and a Christian. Shoot, you already reject scripture, why even bother? You can happily accept what most atheists proclaim (erroneously), that Jesus was a good teacher but not God.

But what you cannot do is claim that scripture says this, or else provide evidence form scripture.

as Jesus prescribes

Ah yes, so you are willing to accept what Christ said about behavior but not about what He said about Himself....again, nice cherry picking....

Here's what Christ said (according to the Bible, which you at least agree with somewhat in order to believe He preached the morals that He did) about following Him:

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples." (John 8:31) And what did He teach?

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."" (John 14:6)

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."" (Matthew 16:24)

"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." (John 8:24)

"A large crowd was following Jesus. He turned around and said to them, “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple.
“But don't begin until you count the cost. For who would begin construction of a building without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it? Otherwise, you might complete only the foundation before running out of money, and then everyone would laugh at you. They would say, 'There's the person who started that building and couldn't afford to finish it!'
“Or what king would go to war against another king without first sitting down with his counselors to discuss whether his army of 10,000 could defeat the 20,000 soldiers marching against him? And if he can't, he will send a delegation to discuss terms of peace while the enemy is still far away. So you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything you own."" (Luke 14:25-33, NLT)

From these verses, you can see what Christ means when He says "follow Me." It requires self-sacrifice, forsaking of sin, and faith.

zoegirl wrote:
So do you also willingly disregard eyewitness testimony in a trial just because you don't want to accept what the testimony proclaims???

Chinese whispers and Corrupt Collaborative Data Manipulation. The writers of the new testament were trying to make an interesting story more than they was trying to record the truth. It certainly is a interesting story of men and mankind, where do gods factor in if that extra devine dimension of the story could of been added in later? Compare the gospels of Mark and John.

Its funny that the person who told me that Christ could very well of been a confidence trickster...was a member of clergy. So don't just believe everything without question, ask yourself...God are you REALLY there. Is it a voice in your head that responds? If so then that is your own inner voice and not the voice of god.

and for_narniaaa I do not see how those verses help, you have to ask: was this man Right? if you can say "i believe" he was then you are sane...But if you say "I know he is" then that is a serious delusion. Men are flawed, is it such a destructive idea for Jesus of just to have been a man?