Evidence for God from Science

Could someone explain to me how his death is really a sacrifice? What did he have to lose? He was God. I could see it being a sacrifice if God suffered in hell for eternity for all of us to go to heaven. But he didn't. He only spent one day there? Maybe I'm missing something.

CS Lewis wrote:I have heard some people complain that if Jesus was God as well as man, then His sufferings and death lose all value in their eyes, "because it must have been so easy for Him": Others may (very rightly) rebuke the ingratitude and ungraciousness of this objection; what staggers me is the misunderstanding it betrays. In one sense, of course, those who make it are right. They have even understated their own case. The perfect submission, the perfect suffering, the perfect death were not only easier to Jesus because He was God, but were possible only because He was God. But surely that is a very odd reason for not accepting them? The teacher is able to form the letters for the child because the teacher is grown-up and knows how to write. That, of course, makes it easier for the teacher; and only because it is easier for him can he help the child. If it rejected him because "it's easy for grown-ups" and waited to learn writing from another child who could not write itself (and so had no "unfair" advantage), it would not get on very quickly. If I am drowning in a rapid river, a man who still has one foot on the bank may give me a hand which saves my life. Ought I to shout back (between my gasps) "No, it's not fair! You have an advantage! You're keeping one foot on the bank"? That advantage-call it "unfair" if you like--is the only reason why he can be of any use to me. To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself?

http://www.philosophyforlife.com/mc09.htm

The wages of sin is death, spiritual death, separation from God.
Jesus paid that bill for all so that whoever believes in Him should get free from sin and be united with God forever.

He gave everything but until you receive it by receiving His Spirit you cannot appreciate it properly.

TallMan wrote:The wages of sin is death, spiritual death, separation from God.
Jesus paid that bill for all so that whoever believes in Him should get free from sin and be united with God forever.

He gave everything but until you receive it by receiving His Spirit you cannot appreciate it properly.

That's not gonna convince a non believer. You can look at it and say its not much of a bill he had to pay. What did Jesus lose in this sacrifice? If I was immortal and jumped off a bridge to save a falling child is it really sacrifice knowing the consequences of that action? Sure he sacrificed his mortal life but he is God. He had nothing to fear. He had nothing to lose. He had the comfort of all knowing and all power.

Now a sacrifice would be if God gave up his sinless nature by taking on our sins.

Swimmy wrote:That's not gonna convince a non believer. You can look at it and say its not much of a bill he had to pay. What did Jesus lose in this sacrifice? If I was immortal and jumped off a bridge to save a falling child is it really sacrifice knowing the consequences of that action? Sure he sacrificed his mortal life but he is God. He had nothing to fear. He had nothing to lose. He had the comfort of all knowing and all power.

I think that analogy works better if you say you are immortal but can still be injured and still feel pain. That way, after you jump off the bridge, you know you're going to live, but you'll also have to spend quite a bit of time in the hospital recovering. The fact that you would survive after hitting the ground, and the child wouldn't, is the only thing that makes you of any use to the child. Let's also say you are an exceptionally good (morally) person, for the sake of argument. What would be the better (morally) thing to do: jump off the bridge to save the child knowing you'll survive; or stand by and watch because you know you would survive if you jumped to save the child, but you'd rather not have to spend some time in the hospital.

Jesus was fully man, as well as fully God. Some people it seems have trouble understanding the 'fully man' part. Jesus had feelings, emotions - he felt pain and misery just like the rest of us. Have you read the passage about Jesus in Gethsemane? Jesus was overwhelmed with painful emotions because he knew he was going to die, regardless if he knew he was going to be brought back.

They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch." Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." (Mark 14:32-36)

Jesus was deeply disturbed by the thought of his coming death, he practically begged God to find another way. But he knew there was no other way, so he went through with it because he loves us. He admitted everything is possible for God, but he still wanted to find an easier way. The only explanation is that he knew that the pain, although temporary, would be very real. Not just the physical pain of being beaten, whipped, and hung on a cross, but also the emotional pain of all his beloved children mocking him and spitting on him.

OK, so Jesus had real emotions and felt real pain. But his trial/execution lasted, what? A few hours? Not even a couple days for sure. God is eternal, why would He care about a couple days? Here's where we get to that CS Lewis quote I posted above. God is greater than pain, greater than death, has the power to erase both of those at His will. We are not. The wages of sin is death, both physical and spiritual. Jesus died a physical death for sure, and because he took on all our sins and God can not come in contact with sin, I don't think it would be too farfetched to say he died a spiritual death too. The point is he came back from both of those, defeated them. That's why you are saying his sacrifice wasn't really worth anything. But on the contrary, that's the only reason his sacrifice was worth anything.

If Jesus (as fully God) did not conquer death, did not come back from the grave, where would our hope be? If God could not even conquer death, how could we, being infinitely less powerful than Him, have any hope of doing so? Jesus promise to us is that he will raise us from the dead and give us eternal life for believing in him. If he did not raise from the dead, why would we believe he could raise us? His promise would be unfulfillable, a lie.

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15: 13-19)

Notice that last verse especially. If our hope in Christ is only useful in this life, we are to be pitied more than all men. Pretty harsh, I'd say. But true. And that's exactly why Christ's ability to raise himself from the dead is what makes his sacrifice matter. God is greater than us, greater than death. That doesn't makes his sacrifice useless, it's the only thing that makes it useful.

Swimmy wrote:Now a sacrifice would be if God gave up his sinless nature by taking on our sins.

That would definitely make Christ's sacrifice useless. God requires absolute perfection; no sin can be brought into His presence. If Christ had sinned even once, He'd be no different than the rest of us, and thus unfit to be the sacrifice that redeems us before God.

Now a sacrifice would be if God gave up his sinless nature by taking on our sins.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God
2 cor. 5:21

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: - Colossians 1:14

and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. - 1 John 1:7b

There is little question as to whether Jesus death was a sacrfice. I think the real question you are expousing is whether it has meaning. Personally, I think it is a silly question, but yes I can see how it would be a point of contention for some.
The real question is, "does it have value?"
Yes, God foreknew that Jesus would rise again. It was going to be. There wasn't any question on God the Father's part as to whether Jesus would rise again. Does this fact negate the 'sacrifice?' I say no. If the Blood of Jesus pays the penalty of sin, it pays the penalty of sin. The sacrifice is effectual. Jesus was real, as was His death, and resurrection.
Your conditions are simply that, your conditions. You are saying that your standards are what makes Jesus' sacrifice have merit. That Jesus would have to suffer eternity in Hell for His sacrifice to mean anything to you. That would make you God. FWIW, I don't think Jesus spent one day in Hell, and I challenge you to find a scripture that says so.

I see little evidence in your claim, other than, "the sacrifice isn't a sacrifice, because I say so."

You either trust Jesus is who he says He ways, did what He did, and was who He was, or you don't. If He is, then His sacrifice truly will cleanse you and make you fit for His Kingdom. Period. And therein lies the value.

Swimmy wrote:That's not gonna convince a non believer. You can look at it and say its not much of a bill he had to pay. What did Jesus lose in this sacrifice? If I was immortal and jumped off a bridge to save a falling child is it really sacrifice knowing the consequences of that action? Sure he sacrificed his mortal life but he is God. He had nothing to fear. He had nothing to lose. He had the comfort of all knowing and all power.

Now a sacrifice would be if God gave up his sinless nature by taking on our sins.

It does convince many non-believers, and they are all now God's witnesses against you!

You say he didn't suffer enough to be taken seriously, others say what kind of God requires any suffering at all...

All the physical, mental & spiritual pain in the world is due to sin, man not living God's way, so not having the "glory" (nature) of God.
This is the consequence of sin so for Jesus to "become sin for us" he had to suffer physically mentally & spiritually ... more than you understand, but he overcame that temporary suffering through believing in His Father's plan.

If you study the gospel accounts you will begin to apppreciate what rejection, mocking, mis-understanding by friends & family, fear & foreboding, torture, sorrow etc he went through and overcame through faith.
He went through all that in a sense unjustly because he himself didn't deserve any of it, but he was motivated by perfect love.

Now, you can have that some faith and love if/when you freely receive His Spirit.

You will suffer in this life, you choose what type of sorrow you get:
" godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death"

You will be a vistim of your own and other people's sins (whether people in your personal life, or governments who tax you and send you to fight their wars, or bad driovers & local yobs etc), or you will be a victor having the love, joy and peace that only the living God can give.

Swimmy wrote:Could someone explain to me how his death is really a sacrifice? What did he have to lose? He was God. I could see it being a sacrifice if God suffered in hell for eternity for all of us to go to heaven. But he didn't. He only spent one day there? Maybe I'm missing something.

Both the Father and the Son suffered loss. The Son was separated from the Father for a couple of days. I don't think any of us can comprehend how much this separation cost both of them.

Maybe this article will help you.

Good question...if Jesus didn't stay dead, how could His death have been a REAL sacrifice?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/2littlepain.html

Could someone explain to me how his death is really a sacrifice? What did he have to lose? He was God. I could see it being a sacrifice if God suffered in hell for eternity for all of us to go to heaven. But he didn't. He only spent one day there? Maybe I'm missing something.

Here's a curve ball from New Zealand; Yeshua was a man born of woman and fathered by man! Yep his father was Joseph the son of Heli, though Joseph the son of Jacob was his father or step father by marriage.

As a man Yeshua sacrificed his worldly life for the fulfillment of his destiny to revolutionize man-kinds relationship with God. His death was that of his spiritual or Christ/God spirit, which came upon him in bodily form seen by all as symbolized by the dove (The messenger to God), and ascended in the same form. His crucifixion was a spiritual crucifixion! His resurrection was a spiritual resurrection! His spiritual journey for his entire life was a walk on water (knowledge rained down from heaven)
The blood shed was of the fruit of the true vine nourished of the waters from God. This is the water turned into wine!

Swimmy wrote:Could someone explain to me how his death is really a sacrifice? What did he have to lose? He was God. I could see it being a sacrifice if God suffered in hell for eternity for all of us to go to heaven. But he didn't. He only spent one day there? Maybe I'm missing something.

Jesus could not suffer in hell because the very nature of hell is to suffer from the presence of God.
Those in eternal Paradise will rejoice in the presence of God and experience His presence as love, light, and joy. Those who are in eternal hell will experience this same presence of God, but His love and light will burn them {figuratively} and they wll hate it because they "loved darkness rather than light." Because Jesus is God, it would be impossible for Him to suffer in this manner.

The fact that He came for us at all shows His great Sacrifice, and the love and mercy of God. He let His creation beat Him bloody, whip Him, spit on Him, laugh at Him, mock Him, and nail Him to a tree between two criminals. Because of His Crucifixion He condemned sin in the flesh; because of His Death He fully identified with humankind; by His Resurrection He defeated Death and Hades, and by His Ascention to the Father He saved all creation.

The Sacrifice is that He did come from the glory of heaven and allowed Himself to be treated this way for our sakes, so that He may save us.