Evidence for God from Science

I actually wanted to make up a whole fictional story about me being concerned christian soon-to-be parent, totally frustrated for having to raise my child in this "horrific secular world filled with anti-moral propaganda" (actually anti-moral propaganda is a part which i agree with, but i list broadcasts of Sunday mass as one of the leaders in that group). And then explain how i have decided to kill it when it arrives upon this planet, since that is, as stated on this website, one sure way to get my child in heaven. I have wanted to see your reactions to that claim, when proposed by someone you would have critical thought of. But the fact of the matter is - i couldn't , cause i find even lieing about child murder disturbing and alarming for my moral center, whatever good cause i had. So, how would you react to such a view? A christian believing this to be moral:

However, the Bible also indicates that children are incapable of making moral choices, so that they are automatically rewarded with heaven.11 So, in having babies killed, God is actually doing them a favor, since, if they had grown up opposed to God, they would have gone to hell.

and applying it to himself?

Do you also agree that Hitler saved a lot of Jewish children?

Do you think that god would accept such a christian in heaven? For doing absolutely the same thing as he did a while back? And, well, it definitely falls out of category of "don't kill, unless you have a reason" (and holy-moly are you serious?!), since there is a "reason"? And, it really is the same, those children murdered by god also had a chance during their life to change religions, especially if all of their parents were killed and they upbrought by jews. Or just accepted god when he appears to them, since he had tendency to do it back then.

This site gives me goosebumps, it scares the hell out of me. Manipulating pseudo-scientific data like that, showing research done by religious groups as relevant and unbiased, intentionally obfuscating and choosing only parts of data, going to such stretches of imagination, picking only supportive quotes, giving justification for murder with vaguely describing it with "if you have good reason", with knowing that everyone thinks their reasons are good, and so many more atrocities.

btw. - i've put this thread in this category because it criticizes the web page (and this part of forum seems to be most visited, so i am more likely to get an answer here).

Thank You,

Your profile says you are Christian but you write like an agnostic atheist, sometimes like a theistic atheist with agnostic tendencies. So...tell us what you really are.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Thank You,

Your profile says you are Christian but you write like an agnostic atheist, sometimes like a theistic atheist with agnostic tendencies. So...tell us what you really are.

FL

I am sory, i have updated it now. As i said, i wanted to increase the impact of post by lieing to be a hard core christian (i still believe that this way you will manage to somehow blur the lines of this atrocity, and i do believe that all of you are essentialy good, or believe to be (but definitely want to be), so that, in real light you would condemn this to hell and back).

I am agnostic when it comes to variable* definition of god - energy, creator, etc... (*by variable i mean - something a bit more realistic and intelligent than "old man" seeking praise and killing all others).

i am an atheist when it comes to organized religions which i have studied - mainly christianity (i was raised as christian, got all sacraments, i even wanted to be altar boy) , but also judism and islam.

btw. - i have picked exceptionally dumb screen name, so lets agree to write ThankYou when trying to say - hey you (infidel), and thank you (with space), when you want to thank me (though i doubt that one will be used too much )

OK...thanks ThankYou for setting things straight.

ThankYou wrote:i do believe that all of you are essentialy good, or believe to be

No one here is essentially good. Any who believe themselves «essentially good» are wrong.

Child murder: abortions are performed every day in this country and I'm sure in yours as well. I don't see too many secular people (some of my friends, that is) getting upset about child murder. Drowning kittens is probably seen as a greater evil than aborting babies!

Your first post shows a misunderstanding of what Christianity is. If you stick around, you'll be able to learn from us. We will not learn much from you because some of us have been far worse people than you can ever be.

Can you handle that?

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: No one here is essentially good. Any who believe themselves «essentially good» are wrong.

By that i meant - having tendency to try and act according to our moral beliefs. Which i honestly do believe majority of people have.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Child murder: abortions are performed every day in this country and I'm sure in yours as well. I don't see too many secular people (some of my friends, that is) getting upset about child murder. Drowning kittens is probably seen as a greater evil than aborting babies!

Well, maybe they are just trieing to secure their child's heaven position. Or, more probable - because aborting isn't actually killing a child, to characterize it that way would be the same as saying that eating an egg is same as eating a chicken. Besides, that is beyond the point here, i don't find abortion as quite the nicest of acts (though i find it much more moral than raising a child in a horrible environment, i for one don't believe that rapist should be allowed to marry the woman he raped (as repent for what he did), as suggested by the bible). And , one horrible act does not justify the other. As a matter of fact, how do you explain killing born babies good, but killing sperm in a cell bad?

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Your first post shows a misunderstanding of what Christianity is. If you stick around, you'll be able to learn from us.

I always love to learn, and i would love that to be the case .

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: We will not learn much from you because some of us have been far worse people than you can ever be.

well, maybe someone will

how about we quit beating around the bush and someone answers my question from first post?

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Child murder: abortions are performed every day in this country and I'm sure in yours as well. I don't see too many secular people (some of my friends, that is) getting upset about child murder. Drowning kittens is probably seen as a greater evil than aborting babies!

You're avoiding his questions. It doesn't matter what secular people think about child murder. Even if all of them think child murder is just fine, you still haven't answered, say, the following question:

Did Hitler do good by killing children, just as God had once done?

I'm really interested in what the position of Christians on this is. If God sends children to heaven and saves them by killing them, why is it wrong for a human being to do the same?

dirt-in-your-fries wrote:

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Child murder: abortions are performed every day in this country and I'm sure in yours as well. I don't see too many secular people (some of my friends, that is) getting upset about child murder. Drowning kittens is probably seen as a greater evil than aborting babies!

You're avoiding his questions. It doesn't matter what secular people think about child murder. Even if all of them think child murder is just fine, you still haven't answered, say, the following question:

Did Hitler do good by killing children, just as God had once done?

I'm really interested in what the position of Christians on this is. If God sends children to heaven and saves them by killing them, why is it wrong for a human being to do the same?

Do you or did Hitler know what the children who died under the Jackboot would have grown into?

DannyM wrote: Do you or did Hitler know what the children who died under the Jackboot would have grown into?

well, they had exactly the same chance to grow up as jews, as did those poor kids (to grow up as infidels) from bible. Their parents were most likely jewish as well. Saying that one of them would turn to christianity is just like saying that one of those babies would - it's very probable (with exception that they actually could get a chance to see god, since he wasn't so shy back then).

But it really doesn't make a difference does it? They could turn to christianity, or they could turn to atheism or perhaps even satanism, by killing them he ensured that they get to heaven, he took the same chance as god did (saying that god knew what they would turn into is wrong, because, as repeatedly stated here - free will 'n stuff).

Oh, and hitler wasn't omnipotent, so it's hard to imagine him securing resources for adopting all jewish children, and divinely teaching them the right path with a snap of his fingers.

ThankYou wrote:

DannyM wrote: Do you or did Hitler know what the children who died under the Jackboot would have grown into?

well, they had exactly the same chance to grow up as jews, as did those poor kids (to grow up as infidels) from bible. Their parents were most likely jewish as well. Saying that one of them would turn to christianity is just like saying that one of those babies would - it's very probable (with exception that they actually could get a chance to see god, since he wasn't so shy back then).

But it really doesn't make a difference does it? They could turn to christianity, or they could turn to atheism or perhaps even satanism, by killing them he ensured that they get to heaven, he took the same chance as god did (saying that god knew what they would turn into is wrong, because, as repeatedly stated here - free will 'n stuff).

I asked a question - you didn't answer it. Do you or did Hitler know what the children who died under the Jackboot would have grown into?

I also think you are confusing yourself by linking prior knowledge with a negation of free will. This is common so you're not alone.

I'm really interested in what the position of Christians on this is. If God sends children to heaven and saves them by killing them, why is it wrong for a human being to do the same?

First. Do you really not understand the difference between God and man? Let's just suppose that God exist, for the sake of discussion. Do you honestly think that man and God are equals? Do you really thing that the decisions of the uncreated, creator are able to be rightly judged under your scrutiny?

2ndly: Who said God would kill children just to send them to heaven? On what basis are you making this argument?

I have to question the sincerity and sanity of anyone who would ask if Hitler did good, and then compare him to God.

Ding Ding!
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DannyM wrote:I asked a question - you didn't answer it.

Well, you actually asked me, not him. ^^

DannyM wrote:Do you or did Hitler know what the children who died under the Jackboot would have grown into?

It's obvious we don't know that. But yes, I see your point.

For the sake of argument, imagine Hitler had prior knowledge that a child would grow up to be an atheist homosexual shoplifter paedophile. Would killing that child be acceptable then?

I also think you are confusing yourself by linking prior knowledge with a negation of free will. This is common so you're not alone.

If it's common, can you explain to me why one does not negate the other?

How does prior knowledge not negate free will? Surely if God knows even before I'm born that I'll become an attorney at the age of 26, that is exactly what will happen. Are things not predetermined then? If things are predetermined, surely I only have the illusion of free will?

DannyM wrote: I asked a question - you didn't answer it. Do you or did Hitler know what the children who died under the Jackboot would have grown into?

I also think you are confusing yourself by linking prior knowledge with a negation of free will. This is common so you're not alone.

I'm sure he thought he did. I am sure i don't.

And, i think you are failing to link prior knowlede with a negation of free will (this is common so you're not alone)

Genesis 5-8
5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

This is a very clear account, but definitly not the only one, god was mad on many occasions, it would be kind of impossible (and without even starting to think that something so perfect would get mad because of our poor actions), or a bit nuts to get mad for something you knew that was gonna happen, before the time even began (as a matter of fact, even better, to get mad at something you created and had definitive knowledge of its courses of action), right?

jlay wrote:
First. Do you really not understand the difference between God and man? Let's just suppose that God exist, for the sake of discussion. Do you honestly think that man and God are equals? Do you really thing that the decisions of the uncreated, creator are able to be rightly judged under your scrutiny?

I honestly think that it couldn't. I also honestly think that i couldn't find logic and definitive holes in HIS argumentation/actions/thinking. I also think he would never write a bible and so on, since it's so fundamentally wrong, even by understanding of our puny minds.

jlay wrote: 2ndly: Who said God would kill children just to send them to heaven? On what basis are you making this argument?

On basis of being written on this web page, here is a link and a quote:

very moral christian page wrote:In some instances, God ordered the killing of entire populations, presumably including the killing of babies and children. Isn't God unrighteous in killing these innocent little ones? First of all, the Bible indicates that all people are sinners,8 including babies,9 and worthy of judgment.10 However, the Bible also indicates that children are incapable of making moral choices, so that they are automatically rewarded with heaven.11 So, in having babies killed, God is actually doing them a favor, since, if they had grown up opposed to God, they would have gone to hell.

link: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/killergod.html (love the name, "killergod", suits him well)

jlay wrote: I have to question the sincerity and sanity of anyone who would ask if Hitler did good, and then compare him to God.

I have to question the morality and critical thinking skill of anyone considering child murder to be - something a perfect and omnipotent god would do to save them (in a book called divine, by someone saying to us - "this is divine book, blesses be those who believe but don't see, now give us 10%"). and that someone being the church (brrrr).

jlay wrote:First. Do you really not understand the difference between God and man? Let's just suppose that God exist, for the sake of discussion. Do you honestly think that man and God are equals? Do you really thing that the decisions of the uncreated, creator are able to be rightly judged under your scrutiny?

No, God and man are not equals.

So, God can do whatever he wants and we're not really allowed to consider his actions good or bad?

If you do not allow me to judge his actions, then at least you must allow me to think of him as a very conflicted entity by human standards. Doing one thing, then saying another. (If the Bible is to be taken as his word and its contents true, which is the basis of our discussion here.)

2ndly: Who said God would kill children just to send them to heaven? On what basis are you making this argument?

On a text I've read at godandscience.org, here. Here it is:

godandscience.org wrote:In some instances, God ordered the killing of entire populations, presumably including the killing of babies and children. Isn't God unrighteous in killing these innocent little ones? First of all, the Bible indicates that all people are sinners, including babies, and worthy of judgment. However, the Bible also indicates that children are incapable of making moral choices, so that they are automatically rewarded with heaven. So, in having babies killed, God is actually doing them a favor, since, if they had grown up opposed to God, they would have gone to hell.

He is killing them out of mercy. If he let them grow up, it seem they would've gone to hell. (I imagine all of them would, because if there was just a single baby out there who would've grown up to be not a sinner, God would surely tell the baby to flee before burning the city to the ground. Allow me a single joke in poor taste. ^^)

I have to question the sincerity and sanity of anyone who would ask if Hitler did good, and then compare him to God.

Surely you don't think I actually consider Hitler to be good, or a God. I was merely stating these things for the sake of argument. When we must compare man to God, why not choose one whom others consider a monster? Especially when the topic is mass murder.

dirt-in-your-fries wrote:Well, you actually asked me, not him. ^^

I asked you - he answered me - I never said I asked him the question; I said I asked a question - he didn't answer it. I think everything is present and correct

dirt-in-your-fries wrote:For the sake of argument, imagine Hitler had prior knowledge that a child would grow up to be an atheist homosexual shoplifter paedophile. Would killing that child be acceptable then?

You cannot imagine such a thing. Hitler is merely a man. Your question is useless. I'll ask you if you can imagine something relevant: do you imagine Hitler would have such 'honourable' motives?

dirt-in-your-fries wrote:If it's common, can you explain to me why one does not negate the other?

It is common among irrational atheists - I do not know what you are yet.

dirt-in-your-fries wrote:How does prior knowledge not negate free will? Surely if God knows even before I'm born that I'll become an attorney at the age of 26, that is exactly what will happen. Are things not predetermined then? If things are predetermined, surely I only have the illusion of free will?

No. If God knows you'll choose to become an attorney this simply means he knows how you will choose. He knows you may go through many aqn agonising choice; but him knowing this does nothing to hinder your free will in choosing whatever you choose to do with your life.

If my girlfriend gets offered 1 million pounds a year to stay on in her high-powered job, I know she'll resist the advances of the Headhunter and stay on in her job. Is her free will somehow negated simply because I know what she'll do?

Did God create the best possible world for his intentions? Does God foreknowing the choices of every individual negate their free will? If yes then can you show me how?