Evidence for God from Science

Hi guys, these are some questions that I've had trouble with ever since studying apologetics, in my studies I haven't encountered any good answers or hardly any discussion on these topics. I hear them thrown around like crazy at the church I attend but since many average church goers have no solid intellectual background in apologetics and philosophy (nor are many of them engrained in good Christian doctrine) I can't really get a full grasp on how to get good answers to some of these somewhat basic questions so without further mention, here are the questions...


How does the overall case for Christian theism stand up against the case for atheistic naturalism?

Do you believe in a rewards system for believers in heaven? Or do you believe that everyone will have the same and be treated the same in heaven?

What is God the Father like? Is He in human form or spirit form or both, or neither, or is it too ambiguous for us to understand currently?

When bad things happen to Christians, how do we find out whether or not it is from A. satan B. God as a means of punishment, C God using this as a way to test our faith, endurance, or some other quality or virtue, D. God as means of doing the greater good or for his glory, or E. none of the above ie just a random incident with the blame being merely on the person or no one?

What about the issue with the ammlekites? How do you respond to atheist claims about God's nature being inconsistent in that regard? Inconsistent in the sense that He's not all loving or all knowing.

Are all sins equal as far as the amount of punishment or are certain sins recieve more wrath than others?

Is hell a literal place of firey torment or do you think the torment will be in other forms and not necessairly from the flames if there are any flames?

From what you have studied, is it a sin for a Christian to committ suicide? Do they immediately go to hell for doing so or is it possible to recieve forgiviness for it in the afterlife?

What are Christian intllectuals take on angels, ie do they sometimes come to earth in human form to help people especially other Christians out, or do they just reside only in God's kingdom?


Anyway these are the primary questions I currently have been pondering, I hope I haven't overwhelmed anyone with these. This should not only help me but help other people like myself get good answers to important questions such as these. Cheers!

Um . . . you are really coming off as an atheist here, to me. But I'll try to answer some or all of your questions. It'll take a little time since I want to get verses, and I need to run for a few minutes.

I'll take a crack at the questions!

I'm surprised you haven't seen any good answers to these questions, many of these are fairly common and well-answered in my experience. I'll try to answer what I can, but some of these questions will get you different answers from different Christians.

cubeus19 wrote:
How does the overall case for Christian theism stand up against the case for atheistic naturalism?

Assuming you mean how "well" it stands up, I would say it stands up very, very well. In fact, the cumulative case is what convinces me the most. The argument from fine tuning is strong enough to give any sincere skeptic real doubt. From what I've seen atheists don't have a real answer for consciousness (the best answer they have that I've seen is Dennett's idea that consciousness is an illusion, but I can't imagine that anyone TRULY can believe that) or for free will or the cosmological argument. The evidence for Biblical accuracy, especially the strong evidence for Christ's resurrection, is very convincing. The fact that many, many sane, rational people throughout history believe that God spoke to them personally and have completely changed lives to show for it is very striking. When you put these arguments (and even more) all together, you have a very, very strong case. Atheistic naturalists, on the other hand, despite so many of them being arrogantly condescending (especially in recent years), will admit when you corner them that there really isn't much, if any, proof AGAINST God (when I first got into apologetics I found this very surprising, I expected to be overwhelmed with complex arguments... that didn't happen). The best that most come up with is that God is an unnecessary concept and there's no actual evidence for his existence, something that I strongly disagree with seeing all the great evidence theologians have been showing for years. So a long reply here, but theism stands up great.

cubeus19 wrote: Do you believe in a rewards system for believers in heaven? Or do you believe that everyone will have the same and be treated the same in heaven?

What is God the Father like? Is He in human form or spirit form or both, or neither, or is it too ambiguous for us to understand currently?

I believe there will be different rewards in heaven yes. As far as what the "system" actually is, I'll know when I get there.

God the Father isn't a human body floating out there in space, no. It's really a big question that no one on earth could possibly answer completely. We can see parts of him, but He's something that's beyond our understanding (and really, we'd expect them to be.

cubeus19 wrote: When bad things happen to Christians, how do we find out whether or not it is from A. satan B. God as a means of punishment, C God using this as a way to test our faith, endurance, or some other quality or virtue, D. God as means of doing the greater good or for his glory, or E. none of the above ie just a random incident with the blame being merely on the person or no one?

E. will never be completely true. Some events do "just happen", but God can use anything to His greater glory, and Christians can use any circumstance to grow in Him. You need to be close to God to know these things and allow His Spirit to lead you. Sometimes more than one of your options can be true, a person has to be digging in God's Word and in prayer, or he won't know which it is.

cubeus19 wrote: What about the issue with the ammlekites? How do you respond to atheist claims about God's nature being inconsistent in that regard? Inconsistent in the sense that He's not all loving or all knowing.

This (like the question above) is a question that is answered over and over by theologians, pastors, and the like. I find it very hard to believe that you couldn't find a good answer to this. Personally, I've always found claims that God's nature is "inconsistent" in the Bible to be off-base. I just don't see it. What did God do that would show that he's not all-knowing or all-loving? We can't forget that he's perfectly just as well, that all of us, including every OT nation, deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth. As far as the Amalekites go, we literally "can't" know God's reasoning completely. Really, how could we? We're human. We have to trust Him. A theologian could answer better, but here's a section from an article on it.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanites- ... ation.html

"Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God's orders, the Amalekites would come back to “haunt” the Israelites again and again. Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men's families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see the book of Esther). So, Saul's incomplete obedience almost resulted in Israel's destruction. God knew this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time."

That may not be a complete answer, but it does show a bit of the picture. God did love all of those people AND he had plans for Israel. Some more articles may be of more help on this question.

cubeus19 wrote: Are all sins equal as far as the amount of punishment or are certain sins recieve more wrath than others?

Is hell a literal place of firey torment or do you think the torment will be in other forms and not necessairly from the flames if there are any flames?

From what you have studied, is it a sin for a Christian to committ suicide? Do they immediately go to hell for doing so or is it possible to recieve forgiviness for it in the afterlife?

What are Christian intllectuals take on angels, ie do they sometimes come to earth in human form to help people especially other Christians out, or do they just reside only in God's kingdom?

Trying to shorten these since this is a very long reply.

We know all sins are... well... sins, and there's no excuse for even what may seem to be a "small" sin. According to Romans 6:23, every sin will lead to eternal condemnation. I'm not certain if the Bible addresses levels of punishment, but I tend to think that it will all be equally bad down there.

I'm tend to think that the descriptions of hell are metaphorical, so no literal flames. Real hell though.

Suicide is definitely completely wrong. I don't believe a Christian can lose his/her salvation. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”.

The Bible has several accounts of angels coming down to earth for various reasons, and I and probably most other Christians believe that they still do.

cubeus19 wrote:How does the overall case for Christian theism stand up against the case for atheistic naturalism?

This is just a very odd question for this board. Of course we think Christian theism stands up very well . Have you read The Case for Christ, or other apologetical works?

Do you believe in a rewards system for believers in heaven? Or do you believe that everyone will have the same and be treated the same in heaven?

Yes to the first question. Matt 16:27; Eph 6:8; 1 Cor 3:15 (it isn't just about being saved in this verse, but losing and gaining). If I did more of a study, I'm positive I'd find more about this.

What is God the Father like? Is He in human form or spirit form or both, or neither, or is it too ambiguous for us to understand currently?

The Bible says He's spirit. John 4:24.

What about the issue with the ammlekites? How do you respond to atheist claims about God's nature being inconsistent in that regard? Inconsistent in the sense that He's not all loving or all knowing.

Why did God command the extermination of the Canaanites, women and children included?

Did God Commit Atrocities by Ordering the Killing of Entire Cities of People?

So obviously you've been reading some atheistic things. It's good and fine to ask questions, sure, but if you're at an atheist board or something, you could say. There's a whole section on the main site about answering atheist's questions. I'll try to answer more later, but maybe some others will answer you too. Oh, I'm glad to see Narnia answering you so much! LOL, I thought you weren't going to post much?

Sorry, I guess I just can't help it! Lol. Writing stuff like that is also a nice way to get my thoughts in order.

narnia4 wrote:Sorry, I guess I just can't help it! Lol. Writing stuff like that is also a nice way to get my thoughts in order.

Ha ha, yes, it definitely helps in one's own learning, to answer questions like this.

What are Christian intllectuals take on angels, ie do they sometimes come to earth in human form to help people especially other Christians out, or do they just reside only in God's kingdom?

If I answer this, will that make me an intellectual? See Hebrews 1:14, 13:2.

cubeus19 wrote:Hi guys, these are some questions that I've had trouble with ever since studying apologetics, in my studies I haven't encountered any good answers or hardly any discussion on these topics. I hear them thrown around like crazy at the church I attend but since many average church goers have no solid intellectual background in apologetics and philosophy (nor are many of them engrained in good Christian doctrine) I can't really get a full grasp on how to get good answers to some of these somewhat basic questions so without further mention, here are the questions...


How does the overall case for Christian theism stand up against the case for atheistic naturalism?

Do you believe in a rewards system for believers in heaven? Or do you believe that everyone will have the same and be treated the same in heaven?

What is God the Father like? Is He in human form or spirit form or both, or neither, or is it too ambiguous for us to understand currently?

When bad things happen to Christians, how do we find out whether or not it is from A. satan B. God as a means of punishment, C God using this as a way to test our faith, endurance, or some other quality or virtue, D. God as means of doing the greater good or for his glory, or E. none of the above ie just a random incident with the blame being merely on the person or no one?

What about the issue with the ammlekites? How do you respond to atheist claims about God's nature being inconsistent in that regard? Inconsistent in the sense that He's not all loving or all knowing.

Are all sins equal as far as the amount of punishment or are certain sins recieve more wrath than others?

Is hell a literal place of firey torment or do you think the torment will be in other forms and not necessairly from the flames if there are any flames?

From what you have studied, is it a sin for a Christian to committ suicide? Do they immediately go to hell for doing so or is it possible to recieve forgiviness for it in the afterlife?

What are Christian intllectuals take on angels, ie do they sometimes come to earth in human form to help people especially other Christians out, or do they just reside only in God's kingdom?


Anyway these are the primary questions I currently have been pondering, I hope I haven't overwhelmed anyone with these. This should not only help me but help other people like myself get good answers to important questions such as these. Cheers!

I think Narnia covered that very well.

cubeus19 wrote: How does the overall case for Christian theism stand up against the case for atheistic naturalism?

Very well.

Do you believe in a rewards system for believers in heaven? Or do you believe that everyone will have the same and be treated the same in heaven?

Only in a small way. All believers are saved by GRACE (it is equally undeserved) and will be equal in their inheritance as children of God. However, Jesus said that if someone built upon the foundation "wood, hay and stubble" it would be burned and lost, but if a person built upon the foundation "gold, silver, and precious stones" it would remain forever.

What is God the Father like? Is He in human form or spirit form or both, or neither, or is it too ambiguous for us to understand currently?

God is a Spirit - John 4:24

I'm out of time, but will answer the rest later.

When bad things happen to Christians, how do we find out whether or not it is from A. satan B. God as a means of punishment, C God using this as a way to test our faith, endurance, or some other quality or virtue, D. God as means of doing the greater good or for his glory, or E. none of the above ie just a random incident with the blame being merely on the person or no one?

When bad things happen to Christians it is never God punishing you. Jesus took all of your punishment. Isn't that wonderful?
When a Christian is tempted or tested by a trial, it is never directly from God. James 1:13
However, nothing can happen to a Christian unless God allows it, and everything that God allows to happen to a Christian whether it was Satan who caused it, natural disaster or sickness, or evil perpetrated by another human being, God allowed it only because in the overall picture (or as we say "in the long run") it works together with other factors to accomplish eternal good or gain. Romans 8:28

What about the issue with the ammlekites? How do you respond to atheist claims about God's nature being inconsistent in that regard? Inconsistent in the sense that He's not all loving or all knowing.

Although Amalek was a son of Esau and they were related to Israel, they went out of their way to try to destroy Israel, the people whom God had specially chosen and blessed. Exodus 17:8-16
Amalek had apparently adopted the ways of the Canaanites and was essentially part of them. Numbers 13:29
God is not only all knowing and all loving, He is also judging and just. Deuteronomy 32:4
Love is the value placed upon something. When Amalek perpetrated such evil, God rightfully judged them and they lost their value: He know longer loved them, but in justice and judgment condemned them to death.

Are all sins equal as far as the amount of punishment or are certain sins recieve more wrath than others?

Eternally, the penalty for all sin is death (Romans 6:23). However, on earth some sins are worse than others and carry the death penalty, while others are lesser and do not. (see the book of Deuteronomy)

Is hell a literal place of firey torment or do you think the torment will be in other forms and not necessairly from the flames if there are any flames?

Jesus said that hell (hades) was a place of literal torment in fire (Luke 16:19-25)
Also, in the Revelation the lake of fire (gehena) is a place of literal torment (Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10-15) however, because it is eternal, it cannot be identical with temporal torment and flame. We cannot fully comprehend it.

From what you have studied, is it a sin for a Christian to committ suicide? Do they immediately go to hell for doing so or is it possible to recieve forgiviness for it in the afterlife?

Suicide is a form of murder: it is murder of ones' self. No true Christian (one who has truly trusted in Jesus Christ who died and paid the penalty for all of their sin) can go to hell since Jesus paid the penalty for all of his sins, including suicide.

What are Christian intllectuals take on angels, ie do they sometimes come to earth in human form to help people especially other Christians out, or do they just reside only in God's kingdom?

We do not really appeal to Christian intellectuals: we are all limited and imperfect. We appeal to the Bible.
The Bible indicates that angels are all around us but we cannot see them normally (2 Kings 6:17).
Angels do help us out (Psalms 91:11) I believe we can describe them as administering God's protection of all of His children.
We sometimes call them "guardian angels"

Hope this helps.
God bless you in your walk.

A few additional points I'd like to make.

On the rewards in heaven. Being taught about this by modern day evangelicalism, I was under the impression that you either got material gain in heaven or you were closer to and or had more direct access to God for eternity and what got you the rewards were by either remaining as sinless as possible from the time you received Christ until death or by the number of people you successfully lead to Christ. If this is indeed the way the system is going to be, I personally will not like it since it will give all the top rewards to popular evangelists like Billy Graham who were able to 'win' millions of souls by looking pretty and pontificating what I call the 'instant gospel' and leave real Christian teachers like the Christian apologists, Christian intellectuals, and teachers of proper Christian doctrine with less reward simply because the masses just aren't attracted to the heavy lifting of apologetics or readjusting their lives to proper Christian doctrine. I hope that isn't the case because since I"m personally not a big 'people person' and I hate socializing with people out in public, I just am not good at winning souls. I currently really like Christian apologetics and working behind the scenes so to speak. I'm afraid if I go and try to witness to people (in this day and age) since many are now militant atheists I'll be sent into martyrdom (which I guess will get you alittle bit as far as reward in heaven but maybe not near as much if you are able to win millions of people to Christ, which again is extremely hard to do now versus ten, twenty, or thirty years ago when you didn't have the Internet and you didn't have the countless number of hateful ruthless atheists wanting to tear your head off at the very mention of anything to do with God). So if there is any way I can find some more info on the reward system in heaven by top and reputable Christian scholars let me know I'll greatly appreciate it.

I also want to quickly touch on my question about God the Father and the specifics of what that Person of the Trinity is like. Since someone on this thread mention (and many Christians like to point) to the verse that says God is Spirit, well that's correct, the Holy Spirit, which is God and a Person of the Trinity is indeed a spirit, just like Jesus is God and is the "God the Son" Person of the Trinity. Now then, what are the specifics of God the Father? We know that God the Father is God and He is another Person of the Trinity. If no one else here can offer anything additional. I guess the answer offered by Narnia4 is more than sufficient in that we just currently don't know or can't know in this life. Up until now I was under the impression that God the Father was somewhat like Christ in the sense He is in human form (I thought He was much like what is depicted of Him in many famous paintings like what's displayed on the Godandscience.org homepage). But if He's not and or something we can't currently comprehend I'm more than ok with coming to terms on that for this life.

But anyway, another thing I want to point out the question about a Christian who commits suicide. Up until recently, I was taught by evangelicals that if a Christian commits suicide or anyone commits suicide they immediately go to hell, and because (in their line of reasoning) suicide is killing and therefore since the Bible says "thou shalt not kill" if you claim to be a Christian and commit suicide since you won't have no time to confess that sin to God and get forgiveness for it, immediately after you die, you automatically go to hell, no questions asked. But not only from you all who differ from that idea, I saw this article on a popular apologetics web site...http://www.carm.org/questions/other-que ... l-forgiven

So according to that article the sin of suicide is covered, but it's also interesting to note that evangelicals also like to say that God will never let a Christian's life get so out of hand that he or she might commit suicide but since I can and many other people can bring up cases where people they know who thought they were Christian at the very least ended up committing suicide. I know it's very questionable then, if these people really were truly Christian to begin with but I guess that brings up a whole other topic.

Let's the last point I want to bring up is the thing about bad things happening to Christians. Being taught by evangelicals for years I was under the impression that God does punish Christians when they fall either into bad sin or if they commit the same sin consistently over time. Doesn't it say in the scriptures that God chastises us? Now granted, I"m also under the impression that God lets Satan tempt and torment us and God can and does use a lot of it for the greater good. But can we clearly establish whether or not God punishes believers either for sin or for not doing His will or doing His will properly ie not witnessing to enough people and so forth? If we can establish that He does, with that in mind, I personally have had a lot of bad things happen to me, mostly little things, but consistently, over the past few weeks and months. And I wonder if it's due to a sin problem that I'm either not aware of or am failing to overcome or just because I'm not as intellectually sharp or I am failing at being a soul winning champ that God wants me to be at this point of my life. I mean, if God has serious problems and issues with you or me, how do we find out, A, if He does for certain, B, what those specific problems are, and C, what can be done to resolve them?

Let's see that's all I've got for now, if I can think of some things related to these questions I'll post them. This has been a FANTASTIC dialogue so far, I hope people can lean more from these at the very least, and at the very least get somewhat closer to the truth. But anyway,God bless.

Regarding the rewards in heaven, cube, there's no reason to believe that evangelists like Billy Graham have the opportunity to get "more" in heaven than anyone else. There isn't a tally system, where each soul you get buys you extra stuff. That would be like Chucky Cheese of Heaven! :p

Yet the Bible very, very clearly speaks of rewards. It is one of (not the only) motivating facts in living the Christian life. Your rewards are not based on a competitive system. They are based on one thing and one thing only: did you do the works to which you were assigned--to which you were saved for (Eph 2:8-10)? In the parable of the ten talents, Jesus gave to each according to their ability. He didn't expect the one with five talents to produce twenty. He expected him to produce ten, which he did. He didn't expect the one with only one talent to produce ten. He expected two, but received none.

People misunderstand rewards because they misunderstand works in general. Even Christians have the audacity to think that they can do anything for God. It's absolutely mindblowing the number of Christians I meet who recognize that they can't be saved by works, but that think that somehow they can impress God with all of their good works . . . look, God doesn't need any of us to accomplish anything He is doing. He is going to do what He is going to do. He just gives you the option of being a part of some of it. To the degree that you take advantage of those opportunities to work with Him is the degree that you are rewarded in heaven.

Note, to, that you can lose rewards. Falling away, living a life of sin . . . such things won't cause you to lose your salvation, but they will certainly cause you to be less honored by God than had you persevered to the end.

So, yes, there are lots of rewards that can be gained or lost in heaven. They are not, however, based on how you lived as compared to how anyone else lived. They are strictly and totally based on how you live the life that God has called you to live.

Jac3510 answered the question on rewards pretty well. Remember, the goal in life is to become holy and righteous like Jesus Christ, but it is only achieved by grace (Ephesians 1). Life is like a race running towards that goal (Hebrews 12:1-2) The real question we all should be asking is, "how much like Christ have I become?". When we get to heaven, we will all gladly give all credit for any good done to Christ. He deserves all glory, honour and praise.

cubeus19 wrote:I also want to quickly touch on my question about God the Father and the specifics of what that Person of the Trinity is like. Since someone on this thread mention (and many Christians like to point) to the verse that says God is Spirit, well that's correct, the Holy Spirit, which is God and a Person of the Trinity is indeed a spirit, just like Jesus is God and is the "God the Son" Person of the Trinity. Now then, what are the specifics of God the Father? We know that God the Father is God and He is another Person of the Trinity. If no one else here can offer anything additional. I guess the answer offered by Narnia4 is more than sufficient in that we just currently don't know or can't know in this life. Up until now I was under the impression that God the Father was somewhat like Christ in the sense He is in human form (I thought He was much like what is depicted of Him in many famous paintings like what's displayed on the Godandscience.org homepage). But if He's not and or something we can't currently comprehend I'm more than ok with coming to terms on that for this life.

When it says that "God is a Spirit", it applies to all 3 persons. It is just that Jesus took upon Himself a human body and so is also human. The eternal realm in which God dwells is a spiritual realm (or dimension) and God and the angels all live and act in the spiritual realm, as do those who die and go to heaven.

But anyway, another thing I want to point out the question about a Christian who commits suicide. Up until recently, I was taught by evangelicals that if a Christian commits suicide or anyone commits suicide they immediately go to hell, and because (in their line of reasoning) suicide is killing and therefore since the Bible says "thou shalt not kill" if you claim to be a Christian and commit suicide since you won't have no time to confess that sin to God and get forgiveness for it, immediately after you die, you automatically go to hell, no questions asked. But not only from you all who differ from that idea, I saw this article on a popular apologetics web site...http://www.carm.org/questions/other-que ... l-forgiven.
So according to that article the sin of suicide is covered, but it's also interesting to note that evangelicals also like to say that God will never let a Christian's life get so out of hand that he or she might commit suicide but since I can and many other people can bring up cases where people they know who thought they were Christian at the very least ended up committing suicide. I know it's very questionable then, if these people really were truly Christian to begin with but I guess that brings up a whole other topic.

Yes, suicide is killing. It is murder of one's self. Yes, it is possible for a Christian to commit suicide. However, when Jesus died and paid the penalty for sin, he did so by paying the price for all sin. Since sin came into the world through Adam, Jesus came as the 2nd Adam and paid for all sin committed by Adam and his descendants, replacing Adam with a new perfect sinless race: all who receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Since Jesus paid for all of their sins and in resurrection gave them His eternal life and His righteousness, they are never charged with sin or punished for sin. (Romans 5-8; 1 John 2-3)
I think the confusion arises because people think murder is the "worst" sin (if there is such a thing). Murder is not the "worst" sin. In the 10 commandments the 1st four commandments address sins directly against God: those sins would be worse than murder which is a sin against a human.

Let's the last point I want to bring up is the thing about bad things happening to Christians. Being taught by evangelicals for years I was under the impression that God does punish Christians when they fall either into bad sin or if they commit the same sin consistently over time. Doesn't it say in the scriptures that God chastises us? Now granted, I"m also under the impression that God lets Satan tempt and torment us and God can and does use a lot of it for the greater good. But can we clearly establish whether or not God punishes believers either for sin or for not doing His will or doing His will properly ie not witnessing to enough people and so forth? If we can establish that He does, with that in mind, I personally have had a lot of bad things happen to me, mostly little things, but consistently, over the past few weeks and months. And I wonder if it's due to a sin problem that I'm either not aware of or am failing to overcome or just because I'm not as intellectually sharp or I am failing at being a soul winning champ that God wants me to be at this point of my life. I mean, if God has serious problems and issues with you or me, how do we find out, A, if He does for certain, B, what those specific problems are, and C, what can be done to resolve them?

Again, God's children are never charged for sin because Jesus paid for their sin: He took their punishment. Then Jesus gave them His righteousness by grace. (Romans 8:33)
Chastisement is different from punishment. Punishment is much more severe: the punishment for sin is death.
Yes, God does chasten (chastise, discipline) His children. (Hebrews 12:6) God loves His children and disciplines them to help them put off their old nature (old man) and put on their new, Christ-like nature, but He is very gentle and only disciplines with the right measure necessary.
God also allows many difficult things to happen to his children to exercise them so they will become stronger. Whatever happens in your life, know that God is your perfect, loving Father and knows everything about you and is working in your life to make you like Christ. You can totally trust Him without fear or reservation.
If there is a particular sin in your life that God is dealing with, He knows what He is doing and will speak to you about it. Read your bible, pray to God, and listen...

Here is my take in brief as I can be…

cubeus19 wrote:How does the overall case for Christian theism stand up against the case for atheistic naturalism?

Christian theism offers choice - atheistic naturalism does not. According to atheistic naturalism you must follow the party line or be ostersized, made fun of, ridicule, mocked, and scorned. Christian theism offers a simple choice — freedom of thought — grace.

cubeus19 wrote:Do you believe in a rewards system for believers in heaven? Or do you believe that everyone will have the same and be treated the same in heaven?

What is God the Father like? Is He in human form or spirit form or both, or neither, or is it too ambiguous for us to understand currently?

According to the bible, there will be different rewards in heaven. These rewards produce no haughtiness or envy but all will celebrate the goodness of God shown through people.

Bible teaches — God is spirit. His eternal make —up is, well, unfathomable to us mortals.

cubeus19 wrote:When bad things happen to Christians, how do we find out whether or not it is from A - satan B -God as a means of punishment, C -God using this as a way to test our faith, endurance, or some other quality or virtue, D - God as means of doing the greater good or for his glory, or E - none of the above i.e. just a random incident with the blame being merely on the person or no one?

Through discernment which comes through prayer and reading the scriptures. Somethings maybe the result of a random incident; however, Romans 8:35, 36, 37, 38, 39 speaks of this and from there we learn how God works through all things…

cubeus19 wrote:What about the issue with the ammlekites? How do you respond to atheist claims about God's nature being inconsistent in that regard? Inconsistent in the sense that He's not all loving or all knowing.

As another pointed out this link: http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanites- ... ation.html and quote:

"Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God's orders, the Amalekites would come back to “haunt” the Israelites again and again. Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men's families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see the book of Esther). So, Saul's incomplete obedience almost resulted in Israel's destruction. God knew this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time."

Add to this the religious arts practiced by these people and others involving blood sacrifice to attain power, infant burning, bestiality, worship of idols (demons) invoked, directly challenging/manipulating grace, etc and etc, and you may uncover another reason as well: a people whose progeny was beyond all redemption. In order to protect Israel — what other choice was left before God to handle this?

As I study it more, I see how satan captured culture / people in order to entrap God to act unjustly in some manner so as to usurp God. If the devil could make God act contrary to himself (nature — character - word) what would that do, if successful (which it cannot be)? Then to capture people to behave in such manner to live challenging God, manipulating God's goodness/grace, to cause him to act unjustly is one of the devil's ploys. Look around at what atheistic naturalism and paganism does — insults god to react.

Fact is, God will never act unjustly or be unjust or act contrary to himself. When compiling the evidence of the Amalekites as well as ancient Canaanites, what they did to each other, religious crafts practice, they lived mocking God. So after a long period of time, evidence is compiled so God is justified in his actions taken to stop this. He is patient too, enduring insults, for eons. Love rightly (righteously) angered none can endure that kind of just wrath.

cubeus19 wrote: Are all sins equal as far as the amount of punishment or are certain sins receive more wrath than others?

There is no such thing as finite sins where one sin worse than another. Sin is likened to a single cancer cell that multiplies through corrupting ruin, killing off all healthy life, producing death. Death in relationships, friendships, psychical death, etc…

Sin is rebellion and involves the act of rebelling in which it seeks to tempt God to act contrary to himself. Test and mocks God in order to prove that he is unable to keep his word, purposes, promise, goals, plans, pursuits, etc, so as to over throw Yahweh (God) and take control of being god, governing through use of ruin, taking, destroying to maintain power, governing not by means of grace, mercy, fairness, justice as Yahweh does, but by central control of force- slavery.

That is but one reason why sin is so abhorrent before God as it is an affront to His very pure, just, Holiness. Jesus said in John 8:12, 34, 35, 36 — he came to set the captives free. He came as a light, presenting a just choice before all, when before there was none, only slavery to keep rebellion alive.

Jac can add more on this too if he like and go into greater detail…

Also Read John 8:28 and John 3:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21

cubeus19 wrote: Is hell a literal place of fiery torment or do you think the torment will be in other forms and not necessarily from the flames if there are any flames?

There will be fire in hell as well as fire is metaphorical. Job 26:5-6 point to the principle that in both the current hell (Isaiah 24:22) and the hell of the lake of fire to come (Revelation 20:14, 15) ones sin nature, rebellion is exposed — uncovered as sheol has no covering implies. There real person, thoughts, deeds, are uncovered.

The rebellion one loves more than God is is being uncovered revealed by how one lived a life tempting God in such manner to cause God to act contrary to himself. How? Living manipulating God's love, grace, patience, kindness as legal license to live in sin by testing, mocking, God in order to prove that he is unable to keep his word, purposes, promise, goals, plans, pursuits through various ways and means. Think about it…

So Hell is where one's own torment torments and punishes (Job 34:11,12) oneself causing one to see what they thrown away, how far one fell, how one chose separation — banishment from God. How can I make people see this — to see how they tossed and spurned the liquid love of God and chose pig slop?

cubeus19 wrote: From what you have studied, is it a sin for a Christian to committ suicide? Do they immediately go to hell for doing so or is it possible to recieve forgiviness for it in the afterlife?

Christians do not condone this act. So if we say it is possible to receive forgiveness for this act, we may justify someone reading this to do so. So this puts us in a difficult position to answer. Yes, God can and does forgive — he is the final judge on this manner. Question — to the person thinking this — God has a better plan than this act — it is not as hopeless as you think. Cry out to the Lord. Seek help. Don't throw away your life as you will and can be a blessing to another.

cubeus19 wrote: What are Christian intellectuals take on angels, ie do they sometimes come to earth in human form to help people especially other Christians out, or do they just reside only in God's kingdom?

I'll defer this answer to other Christians as basic answer would be yes…
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B. W. wrote: Christian theism offers choice - atheistic naturalism does not. According to atheistic naturalism you must follow the party line or be ostersized, made fun of, ridicule, mocked, and scorned.

Now that's just wrong. Where did you get this idea from?

Certainly, there are naturalists who think that way, but you're simply guilty of a gross Hasty Generalization here.

And even if it were right, you could also say that according to Christian theism, you must follow the party line or burn in Hell forever. Fantastic "freedom of choice".

Note - I have to emphasize that I'm not a naturalist. Although I may look like one because I defend their arguments frequently. And I hope no one is offended by it.

smiley wrote:

B. W. wrote:Christian theism offers choice - atheistic naturalism does not. According to atheistic naturalism you must follow the party line or be ostersized, made fun of, ridicule, mocked, and scorned.

Now that's just wrong. Where did you get this idea from?

Certainly, there are naturalists who think that way, but you're simply guilty of a gross Hasty Generalization here.

Atheistic naturalism offers no other choice other than - absolute certaincy that there is no god - so the only choices that it offers are ones leading to that conclusion. It not that such are totally devoid of choice, it is that it only offers choices that agree with its purposed conclusions.

Same with the system that this world operates under: Only one way to go — teach kindergarten kids sex Ed, being bad is glorified and being good scorned, grab all the gusto and can all you can get, justified stealing under the disguise of social justice, unbridled tolerance is a must except an opposing view can't be tolerated; it is like awakening to a great emptiness nothing can fill and where one has no way out as there is no point to any of it (life) at all. Only one conclusion Atheistic naturalism offers — no God and in God's place — the State supreme!

If you want a more descriptive picture to understand try this analogy: only productive members of the Borg Collective can be allowed — all must think, do, act only for the state collective….others must not be tolerated, all that is useful to the collective allowed, all other — eliminated. Choice? Where?

smiley wrote:And even if it were right, you could also say that according to Christian theism, you must follow the party line or burn in Hell forever. Fantastic "freedom of choice".

Note - I have to emphasize that I'm not a naturalist. Although I may look like one because I defend their arguments frequently. And I hope no one is offended by it.

Christianity offers liberty and grace — one can decide to accept or reject the message of Christ — which is that we need God as savior to save and restore us back into fellowship with God escaping the narrow minded one-wayness of the collective system the world offers.

It speaks the simple truth and allows you the right to decide. It will tell you of hell and the reason for its existence and leaves you with the right to decide your course. Christianity offers a new way to be able to live and the means to be able to live it. It offers freedom from the hoplessness that atheistic naturalism ultimately leads too.

You see, Christ offers freedom from living slavery. It offers a simple choice — remain as you are — you have that right or trust in Christ. Simple message that seeks to persuade, not by force, not by government, not by coercion but by reason alone thus violating no gift God gave you. And for this, atheistic naturalist and the world seek to silence, ridicule, mock us — why? What are you afraid of — Choice — true choice? Return to God or remain as you are?

Atheistic naturalism on the other hand, seeks to persuade by force, by government, by coercion and not by reason thus violating God's gift of intelligence he gave you. You really have no choice and any choices and use of reason you may think you have must reach the same conclusion as atheistic naturalism (world system too) leads thus providing only the allusion of choice when no choice is really permitted at all. Atheistic naturalism allows no intellectual honesty, and is devoid of real tolerance.

Don't believe me? Be a Christian on a secular college campus and express yourself to a professor during class.

You who are atheistic are sadly mistaken. Like so many, to believe the anti-Christian propaganda. Christianity allows grace, permits choice, and forces no one to turn or burn. We just offer a choice between two views and seek to persuade through use of reason a person can accept or reject. The responsibility is on you, the hearer, to make a choice and the consequences for making error in your choice is made known as well too, as Christianity simply reveals the truth where error leads.

It is the atheistic naturalist and worldly system people need to fear more than Christians. After all, when you are no longer of material use to the state — the state will have no material use for you. Atheistic naturalism is devoid of hope, choice, and true everlasting freedom…

Atheistic naturalist try to point out horror stories of how Christians oppress people. Any religion can be hijacked for political purposes as has happened in the past with Christianity and for that it was purged of this political hijacking until truth was restored by an unseen hand of correction and will happen again if it strays.

Atheistic naturalism lacks that unseen hand of correction as does Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, paganism, etc, which all are more adaptive to such political oppressive hijackings. Without Christianity one would not understand the grace of freedom from tyranny. Think about it…
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