Evidence for God from Science

When we have all these 'heretical' denominations of Christianity that have various beliefs about Jesus, we need to decide exactly what one needs to believe to be saved.

In John 3:16, it says "whoever believes in [the Son] shall be saved." However, here, believe does not merely mean acknowledge the existence. It more specifically means to put one's trust into Him. According to this measure of salvation, it appears there would be a lot more people following "Aberrant" forms of Christianity that would be saved because all they have to do is put their trust in the Son (it does not say that they need to believe the Son is God). The real question, however, is whether they are believing in the true Son and not just someone that shares the same name.

Romans 10:9 gives a few more details "that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

This says that you have to call Jesus "Lord." Whether this means Lord as in the LORD God or as in a lord or master, it does not specify. Also, in the first section, I notice it does not mention belief heart or mind, just the mouth. And then you have to believe in Jesus' resurrection by God. It seems possible that under these conditions, persons following the Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines or Mormon doctrines might be saved, unless there is something I don't know about their beliefs or some other requirement for salvation I'm unaware of in scripture.

Also, it's implied in 1 John 5 that people need to believe Jesus is Christ and/or the Son of God in order to "overcome the world." But I don't recall normally hearing this verse mentioned regarding salvation, though it may have been used out of my knowledge.

Right belief (faithing) on the right things.

Jesus said, whoever hears my message and believes Him who sent me......(John 5:24)
When I talk to kids in our ministry, I often say, "when you rightly trust in Jesus, who He is, what He said, and what He did."

Regardles of what steps we try to pluck out from Paul's writing in Rom. 10, the most important comment may be v.17. "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." Is the Word of Christ the Bible? Well, plenty of people were being saved before the bible was compiled. I don't say this to minimize the bible at all. I certainly consider it to be our God breathed, written revelation, of which the words within are a trustworthy guide to lead us into salvation. But when I was saved, it was not merely black ink on a white page. It was the word of Christ in my heart that showed me my need. It is no wonder that in the same discussion where Christ states 3:16, that He would also use the terminology, "born again." I mean, He could have just told Nicodemus John 3:16 and skipped all that spiritual stuff that cramped his brain. John 3:16 is truth. Yet, in and of itself it won't save a man. Yes He needs to believe on Jesus, but the verse in and of itself only gives a vague description of the Christ. He needs the revelation of who Christ is. He needs to be born again. John 3:16 was spoken in a context and we must always keep that context in mind. At twelve years old, I knew only the very basics, intellectually, of the bible and Christ. But I KNEW when Christ spoke to my heart. It wasn't because I intellectually ascended to a place, but that there was a spiritual awakening to a spiritual need. It is very difficult to describe, and my best efforts have always come short.

This truly shows that no one coms to faith apart from God first acting in their behalf. The Word of Christ must be heard in our hearts. In everyone's case God may use a variety of means. Could we call this a crisis of belief? I think Blackaby used this term. For some this can be a very intentional progressive process. For others, like me, it can be a very profound and marking moment.

You just can't reduce salvation down to an experience. I had a profound experience, which accompanied my faithing Christ. But the experience itself was not salvation. That is why we run into so many pitfalls when we try to add to right belief. I don't know that we can define saving faith by the words we use. Speaking of my own experieince, I knew there was a force at work within me. I can't do justice trying to explain it. I just knew that it demanded a response from me.

When I first started speaking with Jac on the subject, it was hard for me to define salvation in the absence of any life transformation. Even though I believed that it was by grace alone, through faith alone, it was hard to imagine people rightly saved who would never, not once, walk worthy of their calling. Because of the work that Christ has done in my life, I'd experienced Christ drawing me into repentance, and into ministry. I'd seen doors opened, thoughts changed, and the devine providence of God. And so a part of me thought, well it must be this way for every Christian. But mixed in with all that, there has also been rebellion, stumbling, and resistance on my part. Yet, I know through all this, that the Lord has kept me. Though I had broken my fellowship, I had not lost my salvation. I have come to simply trust this to Christ. I don't trust my salvation to my works, so why should I impose that on another. If I judge someone's salvation based on how they act, and what they do, then I must be prepared to have that measured unto me. And that is a scary thought. Because when I sin, and I do, I am not acting on what I KNOW to be the truth.

James 2:18-26 NIV wrote:But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God.
Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

So this seems to imply that true belief/faith is accompanied by something that makes faith alive vs. dead faith. One can claim Jesus left and right, call Him Lord and so on, but if there is no backing to that claim, that faith is dead.

2 Thessalonians 1:3 NIV wrote:We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more..."

Faith is growing? Don't we either have it or not?
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No faith is the state of enmity towards God. People with no faith come in a wide variety of religions or are atheists. These people all share a hatred of God and Jesus as revealed in the Bible.

Those with a saving faith have a favourable disposition towards God and Jesus; they are not in a state of enmity towards God.

As for this,

BavarianWheels wrote: One can claim Jesus left and right, call Him Lord and so on, but if there is no backing to that claim, that faith is dead.

Most people who claim Jesus are probably fakes, rest assured...at least that has been my experience. The proof you seek of another's salvation is unavailable to you and can be seen only by God.

I remember writing to you about Daniel, my coworker with the fried brain...do you not remember his case?

FL

Paul told the Phillipian jailer that all he had to do to be saved was "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Acts 16:31
When we read verses that use other wording or seem to include other things, we simply must look for the common denominator in them all which is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ".
However, it is expounded upon and elaborated in many other verses, such as Romans 10:9-10.
(BTW, it does say there that you have to believe with the heart).
To "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" a person must fully know and understand who He was and what He did and then believe on all of that.

Yes, James made it clear that "faith without works is dead being alone". That is because true faith or belief in the Lord Jesus Christ accesses the grace of God which irreversibly changes a person causing them to produce different works. If the works don't follow, the faith wasn't genuine.

So this seems to imply that true belief/faith is accompanied by something that makes faith alive vs. dead faith. One can claim Jesus left and right, call Him Lord and so on, but if there is no backing to that claim, that faith is dead.

What we have to ask, is what is the message James is trying to communicate, and to whom. To whom is clear from the opening statement.
Faith without works is dead. Does that mean that it isn't faith at all?
Everytime you or I do not walk in those things which God has prepared beforehand for us to walk in, guess what? Dead faith. James is the battleground for everyone who claims that works are necessary for salvation. If not rightly handled it could lead you to preaching a false gospel.

If you approach James from the wrong position, you will only find yourself with an interpretation that contradicts with various other parts of scripture, which speak specifically to salvation. There is only one correct interpretation, and if James is God-breathed (and I believe it is), then it must harmonize with the whole counsel. Based on examination of Arminianism, Calvanism, and dispensationalism there is only one way to rigthly divide and have James find its proper place within the cannon, and not contradict.

Paul rightly says to the believer, "knowing what you have, I implore you to walk worthy of your calling."
Why would Paul implore, urge, insist, if this were simply the natural by-product of saving faith?

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Most people who claim Jesus are probably fakes, rest assured...at least that has been my experience. The proof you seek of another's salvation is unavailable to you and can be seen only by God.

I agree to an extent. We cannot judge others faith or walk with Christ, but there are clues that can make our intelligent minds lean one way or another. In 1 Thessalonians 3:6 Timothy returns to Paul and gives good news of the faith of the new converts. How did Timothy come to this conclusion? Furthermore they were INSTRUCTED HOW TO LIVE IN ORDER TO PLEASE GOD! See 1 Thessalonians 4:1. Then mentions brotherly love...there is much "deeds" in true faith. Does anyone need more that shows faith works? See 2 Thessalonians 1:11 - "...acts prompted by your faith."

James calls them deeds (well according to the NIV translation) and clearly states "that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
It is clear to me that true faith manifests itself outwardly. One cannot have Jesus in their heart and not DO anything with Him. We have the parable of the Talents from the lips of Jesus that gives James the authority to say faith alone does not save. See Matthew 25:24-30
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Most people who claim Jesus are probably fakes, rest assured...at least that has been my experience. The proof you seek of another's salvation is unavailable to you and can be seen only by God.

I agree to an extent. We cannot judge others faith or walk with Christ, but there are clues that can make our intelligent minds lean one way or another. In 1 Thessalonians 3:6 Timothy returns to Paul and gives good news of the faith of the new converts. How did Timothy come to this conclusion? Furthermore they were INSTRUCTED HOW TO LIVE IN ORDER TO PLEASE GOD! See 1 Thessalonians 4:1. Then mentions brotherly love...there is much "deeds" in true faith. Does anyone need more that shows faith works? See 2 Thessalonians 1:11 - "...acts prompted by your faith."

James calls them deeds (well according to the NIV translation) and clearly states "that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
It is clear to me that true faith manifests itself outwardly. One cannot have Jesus in their heart and not DO anything with Him. We have the parable of the Talents from the lips of Jesus that gives James the authority to say faith alone does not save. See Matthew 25:24-30

What well meaning people do is go to the extreme either way. What I mean by this, is one extreme is easy believism and the other, works based salvation. These two points of view fight each other so much that rarely one can get a word in edgewise.

Look at what Romans 10:9-10 says and note it:

Romans 10:9, "...because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Romans 10:10, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

It is heart trust, totally persuaded, that is missing from both extremes. Therefore, that is what needs defined. The Heart as defined by AMG word Studies means:

kardí­a; gen. kardí­as, fem. noun. Heart. The seat and center of human life. In the NT, used only figuratively. As the seat of the desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, i.e., the heart or mind.

Therefore if one is completely persuaded, it will effect a person's desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, so much so that it will change your life course and actions. In other words, heartfelt believing results in learning to turn a 180 degree change in direction of one's desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, actions, manner of life: Being conformed into that reflection of Christ like character wherever one is at.

Jesus said to be the light of the world but easy believism results in dim bulbs and covered lamps. Simple believing is easy and is necessary for salvation. Remember we are saved from something, out of something, and to be something. If one does not have that life altering change and personal walk with the Lord where one learns from him, the question is — did they really believe from the heart or just from the head?

Heartfelt believing does give evidences that one is saved. However, this is seen more by God eyes than ours. Works do not keep us saved but a sold out heart to Jesus produces evidences through works that one belongs to Christ.

People like to toss in the scenario that one individual gets saved by believing then dies a few moments later. This is not true for the vast majority and serves merely as hyperbole. Only God knows the condition of the heart. The question should be directed to those remaining - do your truly believe from your heart that your very actions, deeds, desires, wants, feelings, affections, impulses, passions are being transformed out of darkness into His marvelous light?

Only the Lord can be final judge but there will be fruit…as Paul wrote

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

And James expounded: James 2:22, 23, 24, 25, 26

Abraham did not just sit in UR believing — true faith involves a journey. Its time Christians get up out of UR and get a move onward learning how to produce the fruit of the spirit instead of slumber.
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B. W. wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Most people who claim Jesus are probably fakes, rest assured...at least that has been my experience. The proof you seek of another's salvation is unavailable to you and can be seen only by God.

I agree to an extent. We cannot judge others faith or walk with Christ, but there are clues that can make our intelligent minds lean one way or another. In 1 Thessalonians 3:6 Timothy returns to Paul and gives good news of the faith of the new converts. How did Timothy come to this conclusion? Furthermore they were INSTRUCTED HOW TO LIVE IN ORDER TO PLEASE GOD! See 1 Thessalonians 4:1. Then mentions brotherly love...there is much "deeds" in true faith. Does anyone need more that shows faith works? See 2 Thessalonians 1:11 - "...acts prompted by your faith."

James calls them deeds (well according to the NIV translation) and clearly states "that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
It is clear to me that true faith manifests itself outwardly. One cannot have Jesus in their heart and not DO anything with Him. We have the parable of the Talents from the lips of Jesus that gives James the authority to say faith alone does not save. See Matthew 25:24-30

What well meaning people do is go to the extreme either way. What I mean by this, is one extreme is easy believism and the other, works based salvation. These two points of view fight each other so much that rarely one can get a word in edgewise.

Look at what Romans 10:9-10 says and note it:

Romans 10:9, "...because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Romans 10:10, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

It is heart trust, totally persuaded, that is missing from both extremes. Therefore, that is what needs defined. The Heart as defined by AMG word Studies means:

kardí­a; gen. kardí­as, fem. noun. Heart. The seat and center of human life. In the NT, used only figuratively. As the seat of the desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, i.e., the heart or mind.

Therefore if one is completely persuaded, it will effect a person's desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, so much so that it will change your life course and actions. In other words, heartfelt believing results in learning to turn a 180 degree change in direction of one's desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, actions, manner of life: Being conformed into that reflection of Christ like character wherever one is at.

Jesus said to be the light of the world but easy believism results in dim bulbs and covered lamps. Simple believing is easy and is necessary for salvation. Remember we are saved from something, out of something, and to be something. If one does not have that life altering change and personal walk with the Lord where one learns from him, the question is — did they really believe from the heart or just from the head?

Heartfelt believing does give evidences that one is saved. However, this is seen more by God eyes than ours. Works do not keep us saved but a sold out heart to Jesus produces evidences through works that one belongs to Christ.

People like to toss in the scenario that one individual gets saved by believing then dies a few moments later. This is not true for the vast majority and serves merely as hyperbole. Only God knows the condition of the heart. The question should be directed to those remaining - do your truly believe from your heart that your very actions, deeds, desires, wants, feelings, affections, impulses, passions are being transformed out of darkness into His marvelous light?

Only the Lord can be final judge but there will be fruit…as Paul wrote

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

And James expounded: James 2:22, 23, 24, 25, 26

Abraham did not just sit in UR believing — true faith involves a journey. Its time Christians get up out of UR and get a move onward learning how to produce the fruit of the spirit instead of slumber.
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B.W.
Nice to find someone on the same page of belief.
Easy believism is deadly and so is salvation by works.

B. W. wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Most people who claim Jesus are probably fakes, rest assured...at least that has been my experience. The proof you seek of another's salvation is unavailable to you and can be seen only by God.

I agree to an extent. We cannot judge others faith or walk with Christ, but there are clues that can make our intelligent minds lean one way or another. In 1 Thessalonians 3:6 Timothy returns to Paul and gives good news of the faith of the new converts. How did Timothy come to this conclusion? Furthermore they were INSTRUCTED HOW TO LIVE IN ORDER TO PLEASE GOD! See 1 Thessalonians 4:1. Then mentions brotherly love...there is much "deeds" in true faith. Does anyone need more that shows faith works? See 2 Thessalonians 1:11 - "...acts prompted by your faith."

James calls them deeds (well according to the NIV translation) and clearly states "that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
It is clear to me that true faith manifests itself outwardly. One cannot have Jesus in their heart and not DO anything with Him. We have the parable of the Talents from the lips of Jesus that gives James the authority to say faith alone does not save. See Matthew 25:24-30

What well meaning people do is go to the extreme either way. What I mean by this, is one extreme is easy believism and the other, works based salvation. These two points of view fight each other so much that rarely one can get a word in edgewise.

Look at what Romans 10:9-10 says and note it:

Romans 10:9, "...because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Romans 10:10, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

It is heart trust, totally persuaded, that is missing from both extremes. Therefore, that is what needs defined. The Heart as defined by AMG word Studies means:

kardí­a; gen. kardí­as, fem. noun. Heart. The seat and center of human life. In the NT, used only figuratively. As the seat of the desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, i.e., the heart or mind.

Therefore if one is completely persuaded, it will effect a person's desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, so much so that it will change your life course and actions. In other words, heartfelt believing results in learning to turn a 180 degree change in direction of one's desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, actions, manner of life: Being conformed into that reflection of Christ like character wherever one is at.

Jesus said to be the light of the world but easy believism results in dim bulbs and covered lamps. Simple believing is easy and is necessary for salvation. Remember we are saved from something, out of something, and to be something. If one does not have that life altering change and personal walk with the Lord where one learns from him, the question is — did they really believe from the heart or just from the head?

Heartfelt believing does give evidences that one is saved. However, this is seen more by God eyes than ours. Works do not keep us saved but a sold out heart to Jesus produces evidences through works that one belongs to Christ.

People like to toss in the scenario that one individual gets saved by believing then dies a few moments later. This is not true for the vast majority and serves merely as hyperbole. Only God knows the condition of the heart. The question should be directed to those remaining - do your truly believe from your heart that your very actions, deeds, desires, wants, feelings, affections, impulses, passions are being transformed out of darkness into His marvelous light?

Only the Lord can be final judge but there will be fruit…as Paul wrote

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

And James expounded: James 2:22, 23, 24, 25, 26

Abraham did not just sit in UR believing — true faith involves a journey. Its time Christians get up out of UR and get a move onward learning how to produce the fruit of the spirit instead of slumber.

It seems you're answering me in that something is wrong with my position. However when I read your post, it sounds like we totally agree.

Am I missing something here?
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Most people who claim Jesus are probably fakes, rest assured...at least that has been my experience. The proof you seek of another's salvation is unavailable to you and can be seen only by God.

I agree to an extent. We cannot judge others faith or walk with Christ, but there are clues that can make our intelligent minds lean one way or another. In 1 Thessalonians 3:6 Timothy returns to Paul and gives good news of the faith of the new converts. How did Timothy come to this conclusion? Furthermore they were INSTRUCTED HOW TO LIVE IN ORDER TO PLEASE GOD! See 1 Thessalonians 4:1. Then mentions brotherly love...there is much "deeds" in true faith. Does anyone need more that shows faith works? See 2 Thessalonians 1:11 - "...acts prompted by your faith."

James calls them deeds (well according to the NIV translation) and clearly states "that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
It is clear to me that true faith manifests itself outwardly. One cannot have Jesus in their heart and not DO anything with Him. We have the parable of the Talents from the lips of Jesus that gives James the authority to say faith alone does not save. See Matthew 25:24-30
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THe difference it seems rests upon why the good works are done.

Are the good works done as part of salvation? Incorrent. Works are not part of salvation!

Are the good works the result of salvation!? Yes...salvation brings about regeneration and will bring fruit. But the works are NOT part of salvation. The only thing required FOR salvation (justification) is belief in Christ. But that belief results in a relationship that comes from that salvation.

This seems pretty clear:

zoegirl wrote:Are the good works the result of salvation!? Yes...salvation brings about regeneration and will bring fruit. But the works are NOT part of salvation. The only thing required FOR salvation (justification) is belief in Christ. But that belief results in a relationship that comes from that salvation.

...and I agree with what Zoegirl said. I would just like to add that the most concise answer to the question posed, What needs to be done in order to be saved [?], is trust/faith in Jesus which results in a changed nature, period. Before faith, a person is at odds with God - hates God - and after faith a person wishes to do God's will.

From my own observation, few - very few - Christians will develop into a Mother Teresa or a John MacArthur. Most of us will have works but not on the level of these two. And if you start insisting that works are needed to confirm someone's salvation, who is to say your standard is sufficient to confirm salvation? Perhaps the correct measure is Rebirth+Works+Tongues. Or even better, Rebirth+BigWorks+Tongues+PersonalWealth+AngloIsraelism+BigTithing+CryingInPublicWhilePrayingToJeeeesus. If the last one is the measure of salvation, we'll be meeting in Hell.

The story of the crucified criminal who found faith and was promised a place in paradise by Jesus is there for a reason. It shows What needs to be done in order to be saved [?]. You may find it tasteless and tax it with ''easy believism'' but...there it is.

FL

This is true, but as CS Lewis likes to write in his Chronicles of Narnia series, it's not for us to know about another person's "story." That man couldn't help but die that day - who knows what he would have done with his faith if he had lived. There are other death bed conversions too, but those examples don't change how we are to live our own lives of faith. The parable of the field workers in Matthew 20 comes to mind, although I know it is commented on in other ways.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: The story of the crucified criminal who found faith and was promised a place in paradise by Jesus is there for a reason. It shows What needs to be done in order to be saved [?]. You may find it tasteless and tax it with ''easy believism'' but...there it is.

Well most of what you said is correct, and yes, works is a sign you were saved, but who are we to say what works are? That is only in the eyes of God, only He can determine what is considered works. From what I understand, witnessing is considered works, and the man on the cross next to Jesus, did just that. He confessed Christ and was saved, and then he said, in Luke 23:40-43: "But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, 'Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.' Then he said to Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.' And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.'"

Now like I said, we shouldn't judge what is works, but I believe this is works, or qualifies as it. He rebuked the other man, putting forth how Jesus (God) is blameless, which could be a kind of ministry. We are called to defend the faith after all. Now weather or not this seems like a stretch, (which it does not to me) it is not our place to judge. Just some speculation to think about. IMO a death bed confession is a form of ministry as well, that may actually touch someone to look into the Word more (Let's just say an agnostic) and through that prompting they find Christ.