Evidence for God from Science

Just read the "What Will Heaven be Like" page on the main site. Some of it I agree with, some of it I'm not sure on yet.

Some things I'd like to be made clear:

- The New Earth will have no sea (Revelation 21:1): Is this to be taken literally? I for one like Earth's oceans... From John's position on Patmos, the Aegean Sea would have obstructed him from the churches in Asia Minor, so by "no more sea", John may have ment "no more obstacles".

- No more Sun or Moon: We are told that the Sun and Moon will be no more (Isaiah 60:19, 20). However, we are also told that all things will be restored (Acts 3:21). In Isaiah 24:23 and Revelation 21:23, the Sun and Moon's brightness will be completely eclipsed by God's glory. In the latter passage we read that the eclipsing is limited to the New Jerusalem, and not the entire New Earth. We are also told that there will be no more day or night (Revelation 22:5), but again, this might be exclusive to the City.

- Human Gender and Physical Traits: We will not marry in Heaven, as we will be like the angels (Matthew 22:30). We will have One who is our spiritual husband (2 Corinthians 11:2). Given this, will we still have our genders and physical characteristics we're born with? Even after His Resurrection, Jesus is still Jesus, fully God and fully Man, so wo'nt we still look like ourselves? Also, angels as spirit beings are inherently genderless to begin with.

Thoughts?

Samuel wrote:The New Earth will have no sea (Revelation 21:1): Is this to be taken literally? I for one like Earth's oceans... From John's position on Patmos, the Aegean Sea would have obstructed him from the churches in Asia Minor, so by "no more sea", John may have ment "no more obstacles".

Okay so for this I agree that it was symbolic. I am not sure what it means though, so not sure if it does mean "no more obstacles".

Samuel wrote: - Human Gender and Physical Traits: We will not marry in Heaven, as we will be like the angels (Matthew 22:30). We will have One who is our spiritual husband (2 Corinthians 11:2). Given this, will we still have our genders and physical characteristics we're born with? Even after His Resurrection, Jesus is still Jesus, fully God and fully Man, so wo'nt we still look like ourselves? Also, angels as spirit beings are inherently genderless to begin with.

As for this I think that we will have a spiritual personifications of our gender. Like we won't be that gender per se, but we will still seem like we do. okay I am seriously going nuts trying to put this in right words... I have done it before.... um.... so there ya go! My thoughts! By the way.... um.... yeah could you help me put that in better words... my brain needs a break! Sorry I am not so helpful right now bro!

Gabrielman wrote:

Samuel wrote: - Human Gender and Physical Traits: We will not marry in Heaven, as we will be like the angels (Matthew 22:30). We will have One who is our spiritual husband (2 Corinthians 11:2). Given this, will we still have our genders and physical characteristics we're born with? Even after His Resurrection, Jesus is still Jesus, fully God and fully Man, so wo'nt we still look like ourselves? Also, angels as spirit beings are inherently genderless to begin with.

As for this I think that we will have a spiritual personifications of our gender. Like we won't be that gender per se, but we will still seem like we do. okay I am seriously going nuts trying to put this in right words... I have done it before.... um.... so there ya go! My thoughts! By the way.... um.... yeah could you help me put that in better words... my brain needs a break! Sorry I am not so helpful right now bro!

So we won't really have genders, but it will still "feel" like we do, at least from our and others' perspectives, like how the Lord is often ascribed masculine characteristics, despite Him being essentially genderless?

I guess I could live with that.

I have read before that "sea" was symbolic to Jews of chaos and bad things, so it could be that it is used symbolically like that there.

I'm going to look some of these things up, since I'm interested somewhat - I had looked some up in the past and it's generally pretty mysterious (as I'm sure you imagine).

It's hard to say about the genders, although my impression is that we will look somewhat like we do now, but modified to look less like the sex we are. That's just my opinion, based on what I've read and by experiences. Now Jesus was a man when people say Him again, yet to some of His followers He was unrecognizable until He chose to make Himself known. If we are going to be like Him, then we will either be able to change our appearance, or alter other's perception of us.

Samuel wrote:Just read the "What Will Heaven be Like" page on the main site. Some of it I agree with, some of it I'm not sure on yet.

Some things I'd like to be made clear:

- The New Earth will have no sea (Revelation 21:1): Is this to be taken literally? I for one like Earth's oceans... From John's position on Patmos, the Aegean Sea would have obstructed him from the churches in Asia Minor, so by "no more sea", John may have ment "no more obstacles".

- No more Sun or Moon: We are told that the Sun and Moon will be no more (Isaiah 60:19, 20). However, we are also told that all things will be restored (Acts 3:21). In Isaiah 24:23 and Revelation 21:23, the Sun and Moon's brightness will be completely eclipsed by God's glory. In the latter passage we read that the eclipsing is limited to the New Jerusalem, and not the entire New Earth. We are also told that there will be no more day or night (Revelation 22:5), but again, this might be exclusive to the City.

- Human Gender and Physical Traits: We will not marry in Heaven, as we will be like the angels (Matthew 22:30). We will have One who is our spiritual husband (2 Corinthians 11:2). Given this, will we still have our genders and physical characteristics we're born with? Even after His Resurrection, Jesus is still Jesus, fully God and fully Man, so wo'nt we still look like ourselves? Also, angels as spirit beings are inherently genderless to begin with.

Thoughts?

I don't think that any of this is symbolic at all... The New Jerusalem city, a 1500 mile high and wide cube (about half the size of the U.S.), will come to earth but not descend directly to earth. Instead it will hang out in space like the moon. Our new bodies will be able to go in and out of this vessel as the gates will be open at all times Revelation 21:25. The new earth and heavens will also be present for us as for travel as well according to Revelation 21:1.

It's interesting that Revelation 21:24-25 records that all nations will be present there. Does that mean that we will be able to see our skin colors and body structures? It is possible, however, like the scripture says we will be all genderless Matthew 22:30. Interesting huh? It just goes to show you that God could care less about one's gender...

Gman wrote:It is possible, however, like the scripture says we will be all genderless Matthew 22:30.

Not sure if that is what that verse is getting at, but I agree, we will not have a gender. I do however think we will have the appearance of genders, or be able to control how we look. Either way, I can't wait to see the new heaven and new earth!
However I do not know about the seas. I mean it would be nice to walk on the shore and enjoy the glory of God's creation, so I think that He will destroy the old seas, but make new ones, or something along those lines. Some safer, then again we will not be able to die, so not sure why that would be an issue to begin with. However like Vicki said I think that the sea was symbolic to the Jews, and that is what will be gone, the chaos.

Gabrielman wrote:

Gman wrote:It is possible, however, like the scripture says we will be all genderless Matthew 22:30.

Not sure if that is what that verse is getting at, but I agree, we will not have a gender. I do however think we will have the appearance of genders, or be able to control how we look.

Yes... I would agree with that. In fact the disciples could discern Christ's resurrected body (being male). This is the same body we will have 1 John 3:2.

Gabrielman wrote: Either way, I can't wait to see the new heaven and new earth!
However I do not know about the seas. I mean it would be nice to walk on the shore and enjoy the glory of God's creation, so I think that He will destroy the old seas, but make new ones, or something along those lines. Some safer, then again we will not be able to die, so not sure why that would be an issue to begin with. However like Vicki said I think that the sea was symbolic to the Jews, and that is what will be gone, the chaos.

The sea could in fact be similar to the "water of life" in the New Jerusalem city which flows from the throne of God. It is most likely not real water however but as bright as crystal.. Revelation 22:1



I kind of like this view of the new city.. They say that if every citizen had a cubic mile all to himself in the New Jerusalem, the city could hold more than 3 billion people..

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=07KFi2lZbsc&feature=related

Gman wrote:

Samuel wrote:Just read the "What Will Heaven be Like" page on the main site. Some of it I agree with, some of it I'm not sure on yet.

Some things I'd like to be made clear:

- The New Earth will have no sea (Revelation 21:1): Is this to be taken literally? I for one like Earth's oceans... From John's position on Patmos, the Aegean Sea would have obstructed him from the churches in Asia Minor, so by "no more sea", John may have ment "no more obstacles".

- No more Sun or Moon: We are told that the Sun and Moon will be no more (Isaiah 60:19, 20). However, we are also told that all things will be restored (Acts 3:21). In Isaiah 24:23 and Revelation 21:23, the Sun and Moon's brightness will be completely eclipsed by God's glory. In the latter passage we read that the eclipsing is limited to the New Jerusalem, and not the entire New Earth. We are also told that there will be no more day or night (Revelation 22:5), but again, this might be exclusive to the City.

- Human Gender and Physical Traits: We will not marry in Heaven, as we will be like the angels (Matthew 22:30). We will have One who is our spiritual husband (2 Corinthians 11:2). Given this, will we still have our genders and physical characteristics we're born with? Even after His Resurrection, Jesus is still Jesus, fully God and fully Man, so wo'nt we still look like ourselves? Also, angels as spirit beings are inherently genderless to begin with.

Thoughts?

I don't think that any of this is symbolic at all... The New Jerusalem city, a 1500 mile high and wide cube (about half the size of the U.S.), will come to earth but not descend directly to earth. Instead it will hang out in space like the moon. Our new bodies will be able to go in and out of this vessel as the gates will be open at all times Revelation 21:25. The new earth and heavens will also be present for us as for travel as well according to Revelation 21:1.

It's interesting that Revelation 21:24-25 records that all nations will be present there. Does that mean that we will be able to see our skin colors and body structures? It is possible, however, like the scripture says we will be all genderless Matthew 22:30. Interesting huh? It just goes to show you that God could care less about one's gender...

I think we just need to look to the symbol here. There are many important numbers mentioned, which some Bible translations sadly convert into measurements we better understand today.

Dale Tooley (who once posted here, but passed away several years ago) once had on his website:

Three will be seen as the number for God (He is after all, Three in One) and four is the number for the earth. The Bible often speaks of the "four corners" or "four portions" of the earth. Twelve represents God working in the earth. Hence twelve Tribes and Twelve Apostles. The number ten is Scripture always speaks of completeness. Completeness can be cubed to absolute completeness (height, width and depth). This gives us the figure 1000. God working with one complete symbolic tribe is therefore represented by 12000. Twelve such tribes gives us the figure 144,000.

Given this interpretation, we read in Revelation that the city was foursquare with twelve gates, "and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel." (Rev 21:12) The city when measured is 12,000 furlongs. (Rev 21:16) Thus, 12 * 12,000 = 144,000.

Also, reflect this figure upon the numbers in Revelation 7:

• 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

Only those who are in the Book of Life enter into this kingdom. (Rev 21:27) The number 144,000 here symbolises those who are apart of God's kingdom. The cube therefore represents not a physical object, but rather those who comprise God's kingdom of which Christ's twelve apostles are the foundation. (Rev 21:14)

Kurieuo wrote: I think we just need to look to the symbol here. There are many important numbers mentioned, which some Bible translations sadly convert into measurements we better understand today.

Dale Tooley (who once posted here, but passed away several years ago) once had on his website:

Three will be seen as the number for God (He is after all, Three in One) and four is the number for the earth. The Bible often speaks of the "four corners" or "four portions" of the earth. Twelve represents God working in the earth. Hence twelve Tribes and Twelve Apostles. The number ten is Scripture always speaks of completeness. Completeness can be cubed to absolute completeness (height, width and depth). This gives us the figure 1000. God working with one complete symbolic tribe is therefore represented by 12000. Twelve such tribes gives us the figure 144,000.

Given this interpretation, we read in Revelation that the city was foursquare with twelve gates, "and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel." (Rev 21:12) The city when measured is 12,000 furlongs. (Rev 21:16) Thus, 12 * 12,000 = 144,000.

Also, reflect this figure upon the numbers in Revelation 7:

• 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

Only those who are in the Book of Life enter into this kingdom. (Rev 21:27) The number 144,000 here symbolises those who are apart of God's kingdom. The cube therefore represents not a physical object, but rather those who comprise God's kingdom of which Christ's twelve apostles are the foundation. (Rev 21:14)

That is quite interesting K.. Thanks for posting that. Many people also argue that the foundation of the New Jerusalem city is symbolic based on Ephesians 2:19-22 where we are in it's foundation also..

I think it's hard however where to say revelation is symbolic then changes to literal like the millennium temple and Antichrist. I've seen it debated back and forth either way..

Ok. I'm new here, and rather young and therefore extremely wise (and assuredly not taken to sarcasm at all)...

So please take anything I say with a grain of salt.

The article posted on the main site that Samuel linked in the first post is one the articles that factored into me joining the discussion forum--its explanation wasn't enough for me. My interest in heaven is decidedly selfish--what's in it for me? Why should I believe these things; is there a reward? What is at the end of the tunnel?

It appeared in my view, that heaven was a place where the chosen were to simply worship God all day everyday. There was no sea, laws of thermodynamics, gravity, etc... Essentially heaven was defined as being completely different from this world.

Some of this to me I could see as reasonable. There is no doubt that this world is not perfect, and therefore the next must be different. Also, He created us, gave us life, and rescued us. It is fitting that we love Him for that and truly appreciate everything He has done for us.

However, it makes no sense to me that He would take so many things away for this version of heaven, or "perfection."

In this world, I am able to take pleasure in watching the sunset over the trees on the lake. I can marvel and be truly happy with my family and friends watching such things. Why would God take away this? It makes no sense to me that He created the world and allowed us to see its splendor, but would then take all of it away. A place without lakes, oceans, mountains, forests, plains, fields...just does not seem like an ideal world to me.

As for the other part about us worshipping Him all day, I am currently unable to accept this. In my own mind, I see an analogy of a parent and a child. The child should love and appreciate everything the parent has done, but the parent should also accept that the child does not follow them around everyday with praise. Indeed, a parent normally takes joy in other activities or pursuits of their child. Why would God create so many things we enjoy in this life, only to take them away in the next?

So that was my thinking. However, reading through the rest of this thread, it seems like "heaven" referred to in the bible is actually just a city? Not the entire new world, but just one city in it? This is taken mainly from the image of the cube floating above the ground and Kurieuo's post about how believers would be able to move in and out of the city at will. If the city was all that was heaven, how would that be possible? Where else would they go?

So my next assumption must be...I've missed something big somewhere. Any help you could give would be appreciated.

slackcountry wrote:Ok. I'm new here, and rather young and therefore extremely wise (and assuredly not taken to sarcasm at all)...

So please take anything I say with a grain of salt.

Welcome slackcountry!

slackcountry wrote:The article posted on the main site that Samuel linked in the first post is one the articles that factored into me joining the discussion forum--its explanation wasn't enough for me. My interest in heaven is decidedly selfish--what's in it for me? Why should I believe these things; is there a reward? What is at the end of the tunnel?

Currently, other than eternal life with Christ and any amount of treasure we store up for ourselves in Heaven, I really have no idea.

'But as it is written:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."*

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.' (1 Corinthians 2:9-10, NKJV)

*Isaiah 64:4

slackcountry wrote:It appeared in my view, that heaven was a place where the chosen were to simply worship God all day everyday. There was no sea, laws of thermodynamics, gravity, etc... Essentially heaven was defined as being completely different from this world.

Some of this to me I could see as reasonable. There is no doubt that this world is not perfect, and therefore the next must be different. Also, He created us, gave us life, and rescued us. It is fitting that we love Him for that and truly appreciate everything He has done for us.


However, it makes no sense to me that He would take so many things away for this version of heaven, or "perfection."

In this world, I am able to take pleasure in watching the sunset over the trees on the lake. I can marvel and be truly happy with my family and friends watching such things. Why would God take away this? It makes no sense to me that He created the world and allowed us to see its splendor, but would then take all of it away. A place without lakes, oceans, mountains, forests, plains, fields...just does not seem like an ideal world to me.

I mentioned earlier on that I believe that the "no more sea" may be purely symbolic. Like ourselves, Earth will one day be delivered from the curse of sin and death (Romans 8:19-20, 21-22). The earth will be resurrected (made new) Acts 3:21; Revelation 21:5, and the nations of the earth will still exist (Revelation 21:26, 22:2). Therefore I imagine that, just as our resurrection bodies may in the end closely resemble our current bodies, the New Earth may in fact look enough like our current Earth for us to know that it is Earth.

slackcountry wrote:As for the other part about us worshipping Him all day, I am currently unable to accept this. In my own mind, I see an analogy of a parent and a child. The child should love and appreciate everything the parent has done, but the parent should also accept that the child does not follow them around everyday with praise. Indeed, a parent normally takes joy in other activities or pursuits of their child. Why would God create so many things we enjoy in this life, only to take them away in the next?

Worshiping God does'nt necessarily have to be church-style worship. The word worship means "to declare worth", so it can be anything you enjoy doing with Him in mind. Please understand that we will likely be working a lot in Heaven, not out of obligation, but because we will want to do it. Our manner of work may depend on the treasures we store up, our behavior in this life, or both.

The Sabbath may also still be in effect, so we'll have free time too.

slackcountry wrote:So that was my thinking. However, reading through the rest of this thread, it seems like "heaven" referred to in the bible is actually just a city? Not the entire new world, but just one city in it? This is taken mainly from the image of the cube floating above the ground and Kurieuo's post about how believers would be able to move in and out of the city at will. If the city was all that was heaven, how would that be possible? Where else would they go?

So my next assumption must be...I've missed something big somewhere. Any help you could give would be appreciated.

Actually, the New Jerusalem is just Heaven's capital city. When the earth is cleansed and remade, it will be compatible with Heaven once again, and by moving the the New Jerusalem to the New Earth, Earth will become Heaven and Heaven will become Earth. Not only because of that, but Heaven is wherever God chooses to dwell, and because He will come down to live on the New Earth with us for eternity (Revelation 21:3), the entire New Earth (and I guess by extension the new heavens) is by default Heaven.

I actually recommend the book Heaven by Randy Alcorn, if you're really wanting to know more about what Heaven may be like. That book is what got me interested in it, and it is supported by the verses I've listed and then some.

Hope this helped.

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My opinion on this is that heaven will be much like we know earth to be now, but without sin. My basis of this belief (while I'm sure I don't have the market cornered on this subject) is simple. Creation.

If God made Adam and then he made Eve...and in this perfect garden they worked the earth and multiplied (or were to multiply) and they visited with God daily (or vice versa), why would the future heaven be any different? I realize the scripture mentions there will be no giving in marriage, but I wonder if that means marriage as we know it or if it means something different? Not only this but God also gave us a brain in which we are able to reason, think, marvel, appreciate beauty, symmetry...and a longing to understand. Will science cease to exist and will we have all understanding on everything? I have a feeling God may leave many things unanswered so that we search for the answer(s) ourselves.

I think I've mentioned in this forum before, but in heaven, I plan on doing many things I didn't get a chance to do here now or things I am too chicken to attempt. Sky dive, deep sea diving, ...

As for the -there will be no sea- thing, I look at that point with this explanation in mind: Revelation 17:15 where the angel explains that the waters in his vision represent peoples, nations, languages. The NIV Bible Commentary says this about verse 15,

NIVBC wrote:On first reading, this verse seems out of place. However, closer examination shows that v. 16 also refers to the prostitute and the horns. Verse 15 teaches that the influence of the idolatrous satanic system of Babylon is universal (cf. vv. 1-2) and embraces all peoples, from the humblest to the kings of the earth.

Not only this, but to me it again goes back to creation. If fish and all sea creatures are a creation of God, and "it was good", why wouldn't it still be good in the heavenly kingdom? Afterall, where will the whales, sharks, dolphins...where will these all live without a sea/ocean?
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BavarianWheels wrote:.
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My opinion on this is that heaven will be much like we know earth to be now, but without sin. My basis of this belief (while I'm sure I don't have the market cornered on this subject) is simple. Creation.

If God made Adam and then he made Eve...and in this perfect garden they worked the earth and multiplied (or were to multiply) and they visited with God daily (or vice versa), why would the future heaven be any different? I realize the scripture mentions there will be no giving in marriage, but I wonder if that means marriage as we know it or if it means something different? Not only this but God also gave us a brain in which we are able to reason, think, marvel, appreciate beauty, symmetry...and a longing to understand. Will science cease to exist and will we have all understanding on everything? I have a feeling God may leave many things unanswered so that we search for the answer(s) ourselves.

I think I've mentioned in this forum before, but in heaven, I plan on doing many things I didn't get a chance to do here now or things I am too chicken to attempt. Sky dive, deep sea diving, ...

As for the -there will be no sea- thing, I look at that point with this explanation in mind: Revelation 17:15 where the angel explains that the waters in his vision represent peoples, nations, languages. The NIV Bible Commentary says this about verse 15,

NIVBC wrote:On first reading, this verse seems out of place. However, closer examination shows that v. 16 also refers to the prostitute and the horns. Verse 15 teaches that the influence of the idolatrous satanic system of Babylon is universal (cf. vv. 1-2) and embraces all peoples, from the humblest to the kings of the earth.

Not only this, but to me it again goes back to creation. If fish and all sea creatures are a creation of God, and "it was good", why wouldn't it still be good in the heavenly kingdom? Afterall, where will the whales, sharks, dolphins...where will these all live without a sea/ocean?
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I think the part about not being given to marriage may mean that we really wo'nt marry anymore, as we will all as one bride and body be married to and belong to Christ, at least in my mind.

As for science, I think that because God wants us to love Him with all of our minds (Matt. 22:37), and because we will see and understand God more clearly (1 Cor. 13:12; 1 John 3:2), and because "glory of the nations" (Rev. 21:26) may imply mankind's cultural, artistic, and scientific achievements, we may learn several new things every day for eternity and still never know everything, as God's resources are inexhaustible, and of His kingdom there shall be no end (Luke 1:33).

Lastly, I think it's highly likely that we may regain some lost oppertunities in Heaven, and even gain some new ones that we would have never even thought of (Romans 8:32).