Evidence for God from Science

Im a new member to this site and have read quite a few of the questions and moral dilemmas on the discussion board. Some create some rather lively discussion . As a person rediscovering my faith after a long hiatus, I find it interesting how those with an established faith get caught up in minutiae (for lack of a better word), or as a concept 'major in minor things'

That always seems to be the path of men..i.e. Organized religion laying out interpretations of scripture, and people following them.

I would say that you already know the answer to your question, thats why your asking it. That or you enjoy that others are taking notice of your 'righteousness'.(Ill assume thats not it)

What do I mean?

Well, if your asking if violent video games are inappropriate , or bad..there is a piece of you (your conscience) that has already informed you through a feeling (this is not a good idea, this is bad, this just doesn't feel right). Your logical mind then attempts to rationalize with the feeling to determine its credence. Then a myriad of reasons pop up that squelch that feeling. (Its not real, Im killing demons, it doesnt hurt anyone, it helps me understand the horrors of war, etc etc) Bottom line, if you want to do it, you will rationalize yourself right into it.

However that 'it doest feel right feeling' still lingers. Listen to it. Compare this action with something similar, but something you would not try to rationalize..i.e. Pornography. This association will help you not follow through.

In the end, if you have studied and taken to heart the teachings of Jesus, and understand the types of people that will not inherit God's Kingdom, you wont need any advice from anyone, that answer will always be inside you. The questioning is a result of your logical mind and base desires trying to rationalize you into action you already deep down know is inappropriate.

If your not having these feelings (or more likely, not recognizing them) then allow your logical mind to turn on itself..when the question arises with logical reasoning, then ask a simple question..Why do I have to ask if it is ok? If it is not 'ok' then I wouldn't be asking, therefore its not ok. The flip side- Do you ever question yourself if its ok to give to , or help another human being? Do you really need the bible or a law to tell you its wrong to sleep with another mans wife, or take someones possessions?

If the situation seems more grey than that..then ask you self this, and let it be your #1 filter. How would I explain God that what I am doing is 'ok'?

"God, I think its ok to engage in virtual killing of other human beings because...." Gets kind of hard to explain..

Just remember how it felt being a 10 year old and being brought in front of Mom or Dad and explaining why you thought what you did was ok...didn't you tend to be on the verge of tears, or already crying because you KNEW it was wrong because you could not explain it? (the beauty of a lack of life experience to fall upon when attempting to rationalize)

A simple filter- dont do it if:
If it 'just doesnt feel right'
If it will harm someone else - mentally, physically or spiritually
If it will harm your self- mentally, physically or spiritually
If it is something that will bring you to act upon a known moral weakness (i.e. when you drink you act upon your desire to fornicate- so for YOU drinking is a no-no)
If you cant explain why its ok to God

Some interesting points, Hamilton! And welcome to the board. One one hand I know that we (a collective we) can get caught up in the minutia and to someone outside it can seem...fruitless and even frustrating. We all have different modes of learning and sometimes hashing out details like video games or movies.

I remember one of my friends using this question when dealing with grey areas: "Do you want to bring this into heaven with you?" And that question has helped solve a number of gray areas. Should I watch this, play this, read that, look at that"...as you say often we know the answer to it but simply want to find a way to excuse it

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I disagree. First of all, the nature of this (and most forums) is to come together and have discussions. If we were to take the Hamilton Method, this place would be a lonely place to hang out. Second, not all people that come to this forum (nor in life itself) are "seasoned" Christians that know everything. (cough) Some genuinely have questions and need answers. We should not belittle someone that needs to know, "Can I play video games and still be a Christian..." or the like. Who's to say there won't be video games in heaven? Third, God says, "Come, let us reason together." and if we can expand on this thought, we can assume that God is a God that we can just chat with. If we can just chat with God, why can't we do the same here and get different opinions? Maybe God hasn't answered our questions we've posed in prayer and thought yet.

Fourth, there are no dumb questions. Isn't that the saying?

There's nothing wrong with an honest question. Just because it seems black and white to you, doesn't mean it should be the same for the whole of humanity.
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Yes, absolutely we should still discuss things!

zoegirl wrote:Yes, absolutely we should still discuss things!

It's more fun this way, isn't it?
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BavarianWheels wrote:.
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I disagree. First of all, the nature of this (and most forums) is to come together and have discussions. If we were to take the Hamilton Method, this place would be a lonely place to hang out. Second, not all people that come to this forum (nor in life itself) are "seasoned" Christians that know everything. (cough) Some genuinely have questions and need answers. We should not belittle someone that needs to know, "Can I play video games and still be a Christian..." or the like. Who's to say there won't be video games in heaven? Third, God says, "Come, let us reason together." and if we can expand on this thought, we can assume that God is a God that we can just chat with. If we can just chat with God, why can't we do the same here and get different opinions? Maybe God hasn't answered our questions we've posed in prayer and thought yet.

Fourth, there are no dumb questions. Isn't that the saying?
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Very nicely done Bav. Yes we should be having discussions here. It is good for people to ask questions and get answers, especially when certain things are not brought up in the Bible. (they didn't have video games back then and I see nothing wrong with them if they do not promote the killing of innocent people). Many people who come here are not believers, or are teetering on the edge of giving their lives to Christ and need to know things before they decide. And new believers may not be sure of some things. I know of many new believers who were not sure if they should do something or not do something, not because they felt guilty, but rather they were in a new faith and did not know what the boundaries were, like a new child who doesn't know he shouldn't touch the hot stove.

BavarianWheels wrote:

zoegirl wrote:Yes, absolutely we should still discuss things!

It's more fun this way, isn't it?
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Hey stop posting already! What do you think this is, some kind of discussion forum?


Oh and Hamilton, welcome to the board! I hope you have a great time here and find answers to any questions you may have, and I look forward to any answers you may have as well! God Bless!!!

Gabrielman wrote:Hey stop posting already! What do you think this is, some kind of discussion forum?

+1

Gabrielman wrote:Oh and Hamilton, welcome to the board! I hope you have a great time here and find answers to any questions you may have, and I look forward to any answers you may have as well! God Bless!!!

Ditto.
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Ha ha ha, yes, this is a discussion board. But I understand a lot of your points, Hamilton. A reverse way to look at some of it is, instead of finding people to confirm that something is OK to do that you think might be wrong, is to find people to help give you strength to actually NOT do something. There are all kinds of different reasons for asking and discussing, and hopefully we can do some good here (God's will).

I wanted to make a comment about video games, though, since you bring it up so much. I have a son, and before he was old enough to play video games, I thought poorly of them. This was from what I heard from some other Christians, but as a mom I was cautious, of course. As time went on and Zak grew, he showed me (taught me) what it is to be a boy. I can never fully understand, as I am not male, but there are certain things about a lot of boys that are just the way they are. As one woman said to me, and I've found it to be true, if you never buy your boys toy guns, they'll make them. They'll turn your kitchen utensils into imaginary bazookas. LOL. He plays a lot of video games now, and many are very violent from my perspective. I talk to him about it pretty frequently, and he says that most of it means nothing. It's not real. But, there are some games that are more realistic, or are violent in personal and realistic ways, and these he recognizes as bad. They made him feel bad when he played, and so he stopped. Sometimes he needs my help to give him the strength or nudge to make him stop. So for video games, I think it's up to each person how he feels inside about it.

I don't think violent video games make people violent - I think violent people with unpleasant motives act out their violence and are drawn to the most violent games. In addition, sometimes the violence looks worse to onlookers. The only video game I've played with blood in it from fighting is Fable. It's a pretty easy game. When I had watched Zak play it, I didn't like that the characters were getting cut and hacked with a sword, but then I decided to play for other reasons. Once I played, the violence seemed less. Not because it wasn't there, but because I was just hitting buttons to go through that scene to do something. It was just a game and didn't seem real and it doesn't make me feel more violent or feel more free and empowered to act violently.

BavarianWheels wrote:+1

what? Did someone mention a discussion?

Welcome to the board Hamilton.

Wow, didnt expect such heat. I certainly did not intend to belittle. I agree discussions are great, and enjoy them much..thats why I posted a new topic. I was simply offering a method based upon my own observation and life experience that one could use. I understand the need for people to have the input (and acceptance) of others. However, through examination of my own life decisions, I cant help but feel that in the end each decision is my own, regardless of those upon which I could lay some blame (for both the good ones and bad ones).

Thats why I felt compelled to write that. In the end , each of us is responsible for our own decisions, and although we may request input to make them, we stand alone for our actions. My intent was to provide a method, that even after vigorous discussion, would allow one to make a decision that once made, one can feel good about taking full responsibility for. For as we may reason together, one does not get to point fingers at those we reasoned with if in the end one's decision is wrong.

I also believe it becomes very easy to get caught up in the discussion and to forget the basic underlying cause of that discussion. Its human nature, and can sometimes cause more confusion than was originally being experienced. Have you ever sat in a meeting with 10 people in the room and one person asks what they felt was a relatively simple question, and the next thing you know its 20 minutes later and two people have already rolled up their sleeves and pounded the table? Reasoning together does have its limits. That does not mean I don't believe in doing that.

That said, being a season christian has nothing to do with your basic natural instincts or conscience. Most likely those that are teetering or are on here as non believers , are here BECAUSE of what they are feeling. Their life 'just doesn't feel right', or something happened that open their eyes to a particular behavior the suddenly feel is wrong, but cannot yet control. It is the very reason upon which I find myself here.

Those base impulses are what Im talking about, and christian are not, most people have them. Now apply those to an ever expanding knowledge of God and Christ, and one finds more and more instances of these feelings as knowledge amplifies them. That applied with life experience- past or future, develops wisdom.

So, by all means discuss, ponder, ask and decide. But when something appears too complicated, perhaps you dont feel God has given you the answer to your prayer, or 58 replies later your more confused than the start, sometimes the simple approach makes the decision easier. Then over time, you can examine and study more, and perhaps reach a different decision, but in the meantime your playing it safe. For those of the world..hedging your bets.

P.S. I would not to presume to call it the Hamilton Method, that would imply it's set in stone and unassailable from my perspective, which I would never agree - although it does have a nice ring to it.

Great points Hamilton…I agree 100% concerning the core of your message, and it’s biblical. The bible confirms that God’s Law is written in Mans heart and that all know of his existence. Welcome Hamilton!

BavarianWheels wrote:It's more fun this way, isn't it?

Brother…I agree 100%

Yeah, I love debates/discussions and most people that debate/engage in lively discussion have tough skin. But I do like to make it a point to clarify things for those who are young in Christ …Luckily, for guys like Bavarian Wheels that fact also provides somewhat of a shield against the full force of my debating fury!!! I’M JOKING!! But I’m afraid you have stored up wrath for yourself in the next debate…LOL...I love you man!!…In a straight guy sort of way..

But I suppose it’s best to keep discussions civil enough so that there is no need to lock threads…(Boring…hey, stop reading my thoughts).

I love this place…It’s a blast!!!

J.Davis wrote:…Luckily, for guys like Bavarian Wheels that fact also provides somewhat of a shield against the full force of my debating fury!!! I’M JOKING!! But I’m afraid you have stored up wrath for yourself in the next debate…LOL...I love you man!!…In a straight guy sort of way..

Hamilton wrote:Wow, didnt expect such heat. I certainly did not intend to belittle. I agree discussions are great, and enjoy them much..thats why I posted a new topic. I was simply offering a method based upon my own observation and life experience that one could use. I understand the need for people to have the input (and acceptance) of others. However, through examination of my own life decisions, I cant help but feel that in the end each decision is my own, regardless of those upon which I could lay some blame (for both the good ones and bad ones).

Don't worry, lol no one is angry with you! I only said what I did because I found it funny the way Bav put it. I am sure we all know you were not going against having discussions, and I think it is good that we could all respond, because it did bring a few chuckles, and I think that is needed here.

Hamilton wrote:Thats why I felt compelled to write that. In the end , each of us is responsible for our own decisions, and although we may request input to make them, we stand alone for our actions. My intent was to provide a method, that even after vigorous discussion, would allow one to make a decision that once made, one can feel good about taking full responsibility for. For as we may reason together, one does not get to point fingers at those we reasoned with if in the end one's decision is wrong.

Yes, in the end each of us is responsible for our own actions, I whole heatedly agree. Too often people will try to put the blame on someone else for what they did, because they were told they could do it. The only problem with that, is they made the decision to agree and follow through with it. It is like if someone asks if it would okay if they got an abortion, and for some reason some one said yes, so they did it. It is not the fault of the person who told them they could, because they did not force them into it. But rather it is the fault of the one who decided to get an abortion.

Hamilton wrote:I also believe it becomes very easy to get caught up in the discussion and to forget the basic underlying cause of that discussion.

Hm... something I have been thinking about for a while now. People tend to want to prove they are right, not for the sake of helping others, or to guide someone out of love, but rather for the sake of being right. When a discussion becomes a fight because each side wants to be right, then it is just wrong. People start to twist others words, and put words in others mouths, and so and so forth.

Hamilton wrote:That said, being a season christian has nothing to do with your basic natural instincts or conscience. Most likely those that are teetering or are on here as non believers , are here BECAUSE of what they are feeling. Their life 'just doesn't feel right', or something happened that open their eyes to a particular behavior the suddenly feel is wrong, but cannot yet control. It is the very reason upon which I find myself here.

Well I do have to disagree with you here a little bit Not everyone who is new or on the edge comes because they feel there is something wrong with what they are doing, because they may not be doing anything wrong to begin with. Rather they may come on to seek answers. They may see the world, and see our faith, and see that they seemingly clash, and that prompts them to find out what we believe, and why we believe what we do. Think of it like this. Say you have been exposed to nothing but the world until now, and you happen upon some faith (let's say ours) and you see we do not believe in things like porn and fornication, and theft, and lying, and so on, and you want to know why. Maybe you start to believe in our faith, and then as time goes on you begin to wonder what else is wrong or sinful, because maybe the Bible doesn't talk about it in a direct way. You may not be sure, but just assuming it is wrong or right would be a bad idea. So it is good that they come and ask. Now if they already feel it is bad, then that is another story all together, but lets just assume that they are totally ignorant to begin with.

Anyway I have said enough for now, lol no harm meant to you!

J.Davis wrote:Yeah, I love debates/discussions and most people that debate/engage in lively discussion have tough skin. But I do like to make it a point to clarify things for those who are young in Christ …Luckily, for guys like Bavarian Wheels that fact also provides somewhat of a shield against the full force of my debating fury!!! I’M JOKING!! But I’m afraid you have stored up wrath for yourself in the next debate…LOL...I love you man!!…In a straight guy sort of way..

LOL nice! I love how everyone posts here, it is making my day!

J.Davis wrote: But I suppose it’s best to keep discussions civil enough so that there is no need to lock threads…(Boring…hey, stop reading my thoughts).

Very true! Hm... lol locking threads has been happening a lot lately.... Maybe we all need a group hug! Who's with me!

J.Davis wrote: I love this place…It’s a blast!!!

I second that brother!

This is how threads should be! Happy and loving, in a straight guy way of course!

Hamilton wrote:Wow, didnt expect such heat.

P.S. I would not to presume to call it the Hamilton Method, that would imply it's set in stone and unassailable from my perspective, which I would never agree - although it does have a nice ring to it.

Welcome to the jungle.

J.Davis wrote:I love you man!!…In a straight guy sort of way.

(cough) So how about dem Bears?
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