Evidence for God from Science

I'm hoping to get some help from a strong Christian here. I've asked several Christians who have given just crazy answers or just did not know. I'm starting to think that the question/problem cannot be answered...and therefore, sincerely presents a problem with the Christian religion.

The issue is this...

In the OT, God commanded the execution of homosexuals (for their sinful behavior) in Israel. The act of executing homosexuals then, had to be moral (or good...or something that "ought to be"). It would be sinful to not execute homosexuals as God had ordered.

Enter today's age and today's Christian philosophy/teaching...

Is it the case that executing homosexuals is no longer commanded? That it would be immoral to do so (for whatever reason...perhaps Christ's death)? That execution is just no longer necessary (for whatever reason)? If so, then the moral value of executing homosexuals (by the state or proper authorities) has changed (from moral...to being immoral). Therefore, we have a prime example of moral relativity. God would be a relativist, no?

OR...is it the case that God is absolute, never changing (as are His standards for morality and moral compass)...and it is all of Christendom that is in error for not having the position and teaching that homosexuals should be killed (by way of execution)?

Either way, there's a problem. The "absolute" nature of God that traditional Christianity teaches is false or Christians everywhere are sinful and being immoral for not seeking the death penalty for all active homosexuals throughout the world. And if Christian philosophy has fallen so far away from God on this issue, it stands to reason that there are numerous other issues that it can be faulted with as well, and therefore is a highly suspect religion (Modern Christianity).

--------

Now...for the record, I do not believe that homosexuals today ought to be executed. I also believe than back then, in Israel...they needed to be. However, I do not know how to rectify the change in position without being inconsistent. Thus, it is a challenge to my faith.

Please help.

Just to answer quick for right now, Israel was a theistic nation that God created. The commands you are talking about were for the nation of Israel. Christians are different in that we're not a "nation" of God's, but part of Christ's body. We don't live in a theocratic nation now, commanded by God. Homosexual practice is a sin, as it always has been, but the circumstances for how it's dealt with have changed.

I understand that, and it was my original line of thinking.

However...there's a moral value attached to the executing of homosexuals, correct? If was moral then for Israel to do. But it is not moral now for Christians to do (is what I believe but cannot adequately defend...and is what you appear to be saying as well). However, the moral value has changed relative to the subjects involved as well as time (Israel then and Christians today). So it is not accurate to say, that morality is relative (by way of example of this specific issue)? How could it possibly be an absolute moral (or example thereof) if the moral value has changed? Or has it not changed, and I'm just missing something?

God isn't inconsistent and His morals (and ours) aren't inconsistent. How He has shown us to handle sins is different though. Israel had the imperfect sacrificial system. I'm not saying God is imperfect, but He implemented that system for a reason. At the right time, He sent Christ to end the sacrificial system and implement something better. Now, sins can be forgiven wholy through Christ. A homosexual's sins can be forgiven if they choose to believe in Christ and so be washed clean. God is loving and has always been loving. He was keeping His nation pure before. But now He wants all to come to Him and purify themselves. I would like to look more up for you, but I can't right now.

Frankly Montana, we don't know exactly what "moral value" was at play with all OT laws. We often try to codify them and place them as timeless, but the reality is that there are laws that God gave in the OT which are no longer in effect. That doesn't speak to the constancy of God; that speaks to the needs and context of the times and the society. Dietary laws are the obvious example. They are repealed in the NT by God.

Homosexuality was a capital crime on portions of the OT. So was disobeying parents. So was working consistently on the Sabbath. So were many other things that no longer apply today because as has been pointed out, we're not Israel and we've moved past the fulfillment of the Law by Christ. It doesn't make the moral elements no longer present. It changes the dynamic that is at work though and the focus is not on justification by our actions being perfectly in line with a moral code, rather there is grace at work that brings us from a performance platform to one of relationship where God regenerates our hearts and we begin to perform from a heart that is already redeemed and just wants to please God but it isn't the basis of our salvation or even our daily sanctification in our walk with God.

You ask if God is inconsistent or are Christians? I have no problem answering that. God is not inconsistent. Christians often are. We elevate some sins as more "heinous" than others. We wink at some things such as gluttony (something I struggle with), gossip etc. and we elevate Homosexuality to a theme that drives political movements while somehow imagining that heterosexual sin is somehow less of a problem.

We're fickle and inconsistent constantly and further, great numbers of us will defend that inconsistency to the point of absurdity.

Homosexual behavior is no better or no worse than adultry, fornication, lust, pornography addiction (a huge problem in most churches ... especially those which focus on condemning homosexuality outside their doors but harbor sinners within who wrestle with this.)

As has been mentioned, we don't live in a political theocrasy. Some imagine we can reinstitute one within a democracy or republic. I think Jesus' kingdom is outside of this. Jesus changes hearts from which behaviors arise. He doesn't do it the other way. Sadly many who name the name of Christ focus more on behavior and law than the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit in this arena.

My opinion anyway. I freely admit that Christians are inconsistent constantly in many different ways and contexts. I admit the same of myself. It doesn't excuse us, but it does argue for why we need to have our eyes on Christ first and foremost.

Nice post there Bart..

Montana wrote:
Either way, there's a problem. The "absolute" nature of God that traditional Christianity teaches is false or Christians everywhere are sinful and being immoral for not seeking the death penalty for all active homosexuals throughout the world. And if Christian philosophy has fallen so far away from God on this issue, it stands to reason that there are numerous other issues that it can be faulted with as well, and therefore is a highly suspect religion (Modern Christianity)..

Basically NO ONE would be alive because the laws of the OT demand absolute perfection when practiced to it's fullest.. All human beings are guilty of sin, therefore, we ALL deserve death. But thanks be to God we are not under the law but under grace.. Galatians 3:24-25, Galatians 3:13, Romans 6:14.

Yes, nice post Bart. I wanted to say that when I wrote that Christians weren't inconsistent, I meant Christians as a group, as the body of Christ, in relation to the bible (we aren't being inconsistent as a group when we don't put to death homosexuals). I didn't mean individual Christians aren't inconsistent. Lol, we're all inconsistent as individuals, yes.

Gman wrote:Basically NO ONE would be alive because the laws of the OT demand absolute perfection when practiced to it's fullest.. All human beings are guilty of sin, therefore, we ALL deserve death. But thanks be to God we are not under the law but under grace.. Galatians 3:24-25, Galatians 3:13, Romans 6:14.

While very true, this statement cannot stand alone. We must take the whole of scripture. Romans 3:31 The law shows what sin is. Romans 3:20 There is no justification by the law because the law condems sinners. The law shows that we are sinners. The curse of the law falls only on the sinner. If the law was the only means of salvation, then there is none righteous and no possible way for God to save a sinner. "But now a righeousness from God APART from the law..." This does not mean the law is removed as law, it is one method (albeit impossible for humanity)... Anyway just wanted to make that clear. The law is still righteous and holy. Romans 7:22

God is not inconsistent. All sinners (apart from Christ) will die. God used Israel as an instrument to bring about justice in those days, at that time, it is no different from Him "waiting" until the end of time. To God, a day is like a 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day. What difference be the instrument of justice or the timing of justice? Either way, all will see His Justice.
.
.

Hi Guys!

I agree with most of the post in this thread…(very respectful) But the bible does suggest that some sins are greater than others. It say’s many times that this person or that persons sin was great or very great. Some sins (not all) were punishable by death. Disobeying parents may not seem like that bad of a sin and I am sure we are all guiltily of it. But Adam and Eve’s disobedience to their creator taught them what it meant to sin. If not for their disobedience they would have never known sin. So while the issue we disobeyed our parents over may not be a sin, the point is, if you disobey your creator (parents) than you are in danger of developing the character to disobey the Creator (God). And if not for disobedience than Man would not know sin. So disobeying parents and being put to death (just as most things in the bible) was just used as an example to show that developing a disobedient character will result in death (hell) as your character will develop into one that is conditioned to rebel against God (The Creator), which of coarse will eventually land you in hell.

Many parents abuse the obey your parents scripture, the scripture (depending on the circumstance) may not always be relevant to a person developing a character that will defy God. We should all respect our parents but the scripture (like most, if not all) of the bible is about our relationship with God, not our parents. I’m trying not to confuse anyone, if you (any youth) find this confusing please mention it. But I just used this example to show why some sins (this one in particular) were worthy of the death penalty.

Now, this same principle applies to the rest of the examples for what should not be done and the punishment for the given sin is also an example of the cost. Some sins resulted in death or death and fire and others resulted in separation. God said what he said in Leviticus to show that the nature developed as a result of doing what God said not to do will hurt or destroy your relationship with God, and if your soul (heart) performs a sin because you conditioned it to do so than your character will become or is incompatible with the type of character that God wants to fellowship and bond with. The Laws are still the same. We still die if our souls are conditioned to perform the sins God said we would die for. And we are still separated from a greater level of intimacy with God if our souls are conditioned to do what God said would separate you from a person or people, it just happens inwardly and spiritually.

I believe the majority of the old testament was meant to be a metaphoric physical example of the corresponding spiritual counterpart, and I believe it all really happened.

The bible say’s this…1 Corinthians 6:18-20 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin 5 a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

So, sexual immorality is greater than other sins and will have a greater cost than other sins. I am not saying that the homosexual sin is a greater sin than adultery or fornication. I am saying that all sexual immorality is greater than other sins. And it is my opinion that homosexuals (gay’s) are heterosexuals that have unnatural affection as a result of various sinful factors. Making true love with your wife or husband or even never being married, remaining a virgin and just worshiping God will insure that your heart (soul) is conditioned to properly worship and bond with God. The whole act of love (I believe this) is a metaphoric physical example of the spiritual bonding with God. The more one destroys what God said is right to do the more that person destroys their ability to have the relationship with God he desires. Way to many take theses matters much to lightly. And each type of sexual sin conditions your soul to reject or rebel against God in a different way and to a different extreme. God put a ton in the bible about sexual immorality and placed it above other sins for a reason.

Withholding sex from a good husband or wife (because you feel (for some reason) you need a certain amount of control or power in your marriage etc), and masturbation will condition your heart so that it seeks self satisfaction or is manipulative and is selfish so you will find it difficult to submit fully to God and receive the true level of anointing and blessing he wants to give you, so that he may fulfill all your needs. But neither of these will cause a heart that God can never accept (did not receive the death penalty). My point is that homosexuality may be equal in that it will condition your heart to fully reject God as will adultery (rejecting your bond with the one you chose/Heart will do the same with God if it is conditioned to do so). But I assure you that bestiality and homosexuality will condition your heart against God more than other sexual sins as they are the extreme against what God said is natural. The whole point of the massive overwhelming majority of the bible is to teach us the character of God, what character he likes best in a person and how to please him.

Now, the definition of conditioned is…conditioned-involuntarily produced as learned response: brought on unconsciously by a stimulus that triggers a reaction because of a learned association with something else.

That is what I am talking about…not that you did it once or twice or more. It is also the same as saying practiced. It just means that you do a particular sin enough for it to become normal to you and have it change your character.

Also, we are suppose to rebuke Christians who practice sin. It does not matter that we are all sinners and are no better than one another. If I find that a Christian practices a sin than I am to point it out and rebuke them publicly, and the same should be done to me. Those are the words of the bible not mine so it is right to point out and rebuke the sins of Christians (I did not say the unsaved) because it is Gods word, not because we think one sin is better than another. 1 Corinthians 5:11-12 1 Timothy 5:20-21

Homosexuals should not be killed but homosexuality should be killed (should not do it) just the same as all the sins God pointed out, and that is the point, it’s just that us humans learn best by experiencing things, many (if not all) don’t seem to be able to just take God at his word so he gave us physical examples of how sins effect things in the spiritual world. It really has nothing to do with him wanting to kill anyone because he is God and morally perfect, so our actions disgust him, do to the fact that he is better than us…. Absolutely everything he did was because he loves us to no end and because he truly knows best. Death is a human experience, to God we are always alive so throughout the whole bible, from his perspective, no one ever died (just thought I’d throw that in for all those who like to accuse God of killing, which was legal then and now for certain sins so it’s a weak argument anyhow).

In any case, the world (Christians included) continue to lose more and more respect for Gods word and sinful, worldly things gain more power. According to the bible all is going as planed but that does not mean we stop fighting for what we believe is right or stop trying to make as many people aware of what we know to be the truth as we can. We are all responsible for what we know to be true. And I am just giving my interpretation of Gods word. I have absolutely no more or less love and respect for any person until they prove they deserve less respect, regardless of their lifestyle choice.

I don’t plan to argue any points in this thread as I have already had my say about it. Just wanted say a few things.

But I can…LOL.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Gman wrote:Basically NO ONE would be alive because the laws of the OT demand absolute perfection when practiced to it's fullest.. All human beings are guilty of sin, therefore, we ALL deserve death. But thanks be to God we are not under the law but under grace.. Galatians 3:24-25, Galatians 3:13, Romans 6:14.

While very true, this statement cannot stand alone. We must take the whole of scripture. Romans 3:31 The law shows what sin is. Romans 3:20 There is no justification by the law because the law condems sinners. The law shows that we are sinners. The curse of the law falls only on the sinner. If the law was the only means of salvation, then there is none righteous and no possible way for God to save a sinner. "But now a righeousness from God APART from the law..." This does not mean the law is removed as law, it is one method (albeit impossible for humanity)... Anyway just wanted to make that clear. The law is still righteous and holy. Romans 7:22

God is not inconsistent. All sinners (apart from Christ) will die. God used Israel as an instrument to bring about justice in those days, at that time, it is no different from Him "waiting" until the end of time. To God, a day is like a 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day. What difference be the instrument of justice or the timing of justice? Either way, all will see His Justice.
.
.

Yes but for the most part Christ put an end to old testament laws Romans 10:4 and superseded them by combining them into two easy to understand distinct laws. 1. Loving thy neighbor as thyself. 2. Love God with all your heart mind and soul, Matthew 22:37-39. If we obey these two commands, it's like we are fulfilling the entire old testament laws.. Matthew 22:40 I don't think that means that the old testament laws are now void, but now we can categorize them easier.. Of course some laws like the sacrificial system were fulfilled by Christ and don't apply to us anymore..

Also, as I stated earlier, if we break one part of the law, it's like we are breaking all the laws.. James 2:10. So we can't escape it, we are all guilty. Therefore Christ is our only answer..

I would like to add that so long as you are alive, it is never to late to change and allow God to help you make that change. Also, as Gman said, not all the old testament laws are to be taken literally anymore. Just read the new testament, it is clear about what has been converted.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Gman wrote:Basically NO ONE would be alive because the laws of the OT demand absolute perfection when practiced to it's fullest.. All human beings are guilty of sin, therefore, we ALL deserve death. But thanks be to God we are not under the law but under grace.. Galatians 3:24-25, Galatians 3:13, Romans 6:14.

While very true, this statement cannot stand alone. We must take the whole of scripture. Romans 3:31 The law shows what sin is. Romans 3:20 There is no justification by the law because the law condems sinners. The law shows that we are sinners. The curse of the law falls only on the sinner. If the law was the only means of salvation, then there is none righteous and no possible way for God to save a sinner. "But now a righeousness from God APART from the law..." This does not mean the law is removed as law, it is one method (albeit impossible for humanity)... Anyway just wanted to make that clear. The law is still righteous and holy. Romans 7:22

God is not inconsistent. All sinners (apart from Christ) will die. God used Israel as an instrument to bring about justice in those days, at that time, it is no different from Him "waiting" until the end of time. To God, a day is like a 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day. What difference be the instrument of justice or the timing of justice? Either way, all will see His Justice.

Yes but for the most part Christ put an end to old testament laws Romans 10:4 and superseded them by combining them into two easy to understand distinct laws. 1. Loving thy neighbor as thyself. 2. Love God with all your heart mind and soul, Matthew 22:37-39. If we obey these two commands, it's like we are fulfilling the entire old testament laws.. Matthew 22:40 I don't think that means that the old testament laws are now void, but now we can categorize them easier..

To continue in this would be to hijack this thread. Suffice to say while I agree in theme, I disagree in details.

Gman wrote:Of course some laws like the sacrificial system were fulfilled by Christ and don't apply to us anymore..

Agreed.
.
.

J. Davis,

Boy do I understad where you're coming from. Not too very long ago I could (and probably did) write many similar things.

Suffice it to say, that I disagree in some detail but moreso, I disagree in terms of the presuppositions that are inherent with the approach in how the question being addressed are being asked.

I believe asking "Which sins are worse than others?" is an invalid approach to begin with. I believe God is Loving. I believe Jesus fulfilled all the law and paid sufficiently for all sin and in terms of salvation the only question that needs to be asked is, have you placed your faith and trust for your salvation within Jesus Christ. That's an all or nothing proposition. There are no degrees or shades. You either have or you haven't.

Beyond that context in terms of daily walk (commonly known as sanctification) if you want to argue that there are certain behaviors that can carry a greater price in terms of temporal consequences I have no problem with that. Even then, that's a general statement. In pratice with different people and different situations there may be differing temporal results, but in general it is true that there's something about sexual sin that takes on some qualities beyond other.

But this entire approach, and I did it for years is again, based on my understanding and walk now, is starting from the wrong place. God is Love. When we've accepted Jesus the issue of sin ultimately is dealt with already. There are no degrees. Rather than starting with sins and which are worse and which consequences may or may not ensue, I choose to start with the fact that God loves me, wants the best for me and further, I love Him and do not wish to grieve Him or the Holy Spirit and based on my desire to please Him, I'll simply choose to walk in a manner that supports and deepens my relationship with Him.

It's subtle, but believe me, it makes a huge difference. It's the difference between walking in grace confident of God's Love and walking in legalism viewing God as a stern taskmaster who is simply waiting for me to trip up so He can "smite me."

Now, I don't know your heart and I'm not suggesting that there's a black and white differentiation here between us, but for what it's worth, I'll say that internalizing that view of God as I've described it above and focusing upon the Love that the NT teaches clearly is the closest approximation of God's character and attitude toward those redeemed in Christ, makes a huge difference.

Scales of sin, scorecards and elevating which sins are worse than others, is an all too human activity. It's at the very heart of what Jesus was illustrating in his parable of the pharisee and the sinner when the Pharisee come to God declaring all his good works, worthiness and how he is better than others. Organizations thrive on these types of things as they provide the outward means to establish hierarchy and pecking order.

Frankly, as Paul say, it's all but dung and garbage when compared to the love and grace of Christ.

So, where you start in this type of discussion often contains the seeds of where you'll wind up if you continue to follow that line of thinking and living. I'm still growing, and I don't discount that sin is serious and has consequences, sometimes even long lasting temporal consequences that extend beyond our repentance and forgiveness (but the eternal ones are resolved thanks be to God.) I choose now however to start with God's Love and desire to know and walk with me in a manner that is modeled within the very Trinity itself (although obviously, I'm not God.) It's a much healthier and joyful place to be.

blessings,

bart

cslewislover wrote:God isn't inconsistent and His morals (and ours) aren't inconsistent. How He has shown us to handle sins is different though. Israel had the imperfect sacrificial system. I'm not saying God is imperfect, but He implemented that system for a reason. At the right time, He sent Christ to end the sacrificial system and implement something better. Now, sins can be forgiven wholy through Christ. A homosexual's sins can be forgiven if they choose to believe in Christ and so be washed clean. God is loving and has always been loving. He was keeping His nation pure before. But now He wants all to come to Him and purify themselves. I would like to look more up for you, but I can't right now.

OK...but the moral value of executing homosexuals has changed, no? It was moral to do so then, it is immoral to do so now. Therefore, it was moral for homosexuals to be executed then in Israel, but it is immoral to execute someone simply for homosexual behavior today by anyone.

So the moral value of execution for homosexuals has changed. Thus, an example of moral relativity (relative to time, place, people and circumstance). Right?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Frankly Montana, we don't know exactly what "moral value" was at play with all OT laws. We often try to codify them and place them as timeless, but the reality is that there are laws that God gave in the OT which are no longer in effect. That doesn't speak to the constancy of God; that speaks to the needs and context of the times and the society. Dietary laws are the obvious example. They are repealed in the NT by God.

Homosexuality was a capital crime on portions of the OT. So was disobeying parents. So was working consistently on the Sabbath. So were many other things that no longer apply today because as has been pointed out, we're not Israel and we've moved past the fulfillment of the Law by Christ. It doesn't make the moral elements no longer present. It changes the dynamic that is at work though and the focus is not on justification by our actions being perfectly in line with a moral code, rather there is grace at work that brings us from a performance platform to one of relationship where God regenerates our hearts and we begin to perform from a heart that is already redeemed and just wants to please God but it isn't the basis of our salvation or even our daily sanctification in our walk with God.

You ask if God is inconsistent or are Christians? I have no problem answering that. God is not inconsistent. Christians often are. We elevate some sins as more "heinous" than others. We wink at some things such as gluttony (something I struggle with), gossip etc. and we elevate Homosexuality to a theme that drives political movements while somehow imagining that heterosexual sin is somehow less of a problem.

We're fickle and inconsistent constantly and further, great numbers of us will defend that inconsistency to the point of absurdity.

Homosexual behavior is no better or no worse than adultry, fornication, lust, pornography addiction (a huge problem in most churches ... especially those which focus on condemning homosexuality outside their doors but harbor sinners within who wrestle with this.)

As has been mentioned, we don't live in a political theocrasy. Some imagine we can reinstitute one within a democracy or republic. I think Jesus' kingdom is outside of this. Jesus changes hearts from which behaviors arise. He doesn't do it the other way. Sadly many who name the name of Christ focus more on behavior and law than the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit in this arena.

My opinion anyway. I freely admit that Christians are inconsistent constantly in many different ways and contexts. I admit the same of myself. It doesn't excuse us, but it does argue for why we need to have our eyes on Christ first and foremost.

OK, but hasn't the moral value for executing homosexuals changed? Changed relative to time, people, place, circumstance? If it hasn't...then it is moral to execute someone for being homosexual. That which is moral ought to be striven for. Therefore, if Christians are not striving to have their civil authorities execute homosexuals on the basis of their homosexuality, are they not being immoral by not following the moral value of executing homosexuals?

You say that it has "changed", the expectation to execute homosexuals (as well as many other examples). But are these not examples of relative morality? It was moral then for some, but not moral for others at another time?