Evidence for God from Science

Yesterday I was talking to a man I know who says that the Lord showed him something in a vision or dream. A white man in a Muslim crusader uniform. He asked God to show him what the vision or dream meant. He said God showed him it represented Pres. Obama. The man was white, meaning Obama had all the power of a white man, and the uniform meant that Obama is a crusader for Islam. This got me thinking, especially with what's been going on regarding the possibility of a mosque being built near ground zero in N.Y. City. In Islam, if someone is born to a Muslim father, that makes him a Muslim. Does anyone know if Pres. Obama has renounced Islam?

To renounce Islam you'd have to have been a muslim in the first place, right? That type of question sort of reminds me of the old classic, "So are you still beating your wife?"

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Obama's politics I'm frankly getting pretty weary of the fear-mongering going on in some circles over Obama's birthplace and now that he's somehow a "closet Muslim". In terms of his overt religious activity, Obama has been a member of a Christian church. Remember during the election? It was his pastor being questioned on things, not his Imam. I don't know the state of Obama's heart and personal salvation any better than I know anyone elses. He may be just a cultural Christian. So might anyone else who attends a church.

I didn't vote for the man, and Lord knows I don't agree with all of his actions and policies but I draw the line there. He's the President and he's a human being. He deserves some modicum of respect and dignity afforded to him for that. Those whose politics may align more closely to mine but who employ these types of personal tactics disappoint me greatly and at times lead me to reconsider some of my political positions given the company they appear to keep in some instances.

That's not directed at you Rick. Your question just afforded me a jump off point to say my piece on that subject.

blessings,

bart

Yahoo just made an article about Obama and his faith

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100819/ap_ ... s_religion

Looks like he's a Christian

To renounce Islam you'd have to have been a muslim in the first place, right? That type of question sort of reminds me of the old classic, "So are you still beating your wife?"

Bart, like I said in my post, Obama was born to a Muslim father. In Islam, doesn't that make him a Muslim until he renounces Islam?

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Obama's politics I'm frankly getting pretty weary of the fear-mongering going on in some circles over Obama's birthplace and now that he's somehow a "closet Muslim". In terms of his overt religious activity, Obama has been a member of a Christian church. Remember during the election? It was his pastor being questioned on things, not his Imam. I don't know the state of Obama's heart and personal salvation any better than I know anyone elses. He may be just a cultural Christian. So might anyone else who attends a church.

If you remember back to the time of the election, Obama said he wasn't aware that HIS Reverend Wright believed what he did. If I attended a church consistently for 20 years like Obama said he did, I'm sure I would know what the pastor stood for. Bart, on another thread you mentioned about groupthink. While the political and religious right may be spouting this rhetoric, we still have to see through that to really see what Obama is like for himself. Whether or not Obama is a Muslim, it still seems he may be a "crusader for Islam".

RickD wrote:

To renounce Islam you'd have to have been a muslim in the first place, right? That type of question sort of reminds me of the old classic, "So are you still beating your wife?"

Bart, like I said in my post, Obama was born to a Muslim father. In Islam, doesn't that make him a Muslim until he renounces Islam?

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Obama's politics I'm frankly getting pretty weary of the fear-mongering going on in some circles over Obama's birthplace and now that he's somehow a "closet Muslim". In terms of his overt religious activity, Obama has been a member of a Christian church. Remember during the election? It was his pastor being questioned on things, not his Imam. I don't know the state of Obama's heart and personal salvation any better than I know anyone elses. He may be just a cultural Christian. So might anyone else who attends a church.

If you remember back to the time of the election, Obama said he wasn't aware that HIS Reverend Wright believed what he did. If I attended a church consistently for 20 years like Obama said he did, I'm sure I would know what the pastor stood for. Bart, on another thread you mentioned about groupthink. While the political and religious right may be spouting this rhetoric, we still have to see through that to really see what Obama is like for himself. Whether or not Obama is a Muslim, it still seems he may be a "crusader for Islam".

I don't see that he's a "crusader for Islam". I think he's committed to improving relationships with Islam Countries, especially those that are not dominated by radical factions. I also believe he's attempting to raise the level of dialogue.

Groupthink is a phenoma that occurs from all political directions, it's not unique to the left or the right and even those in the middle can engage in it.

His father was a Muslim and a very limited factor in his upbringing. He has reached out more the to the Muslim communities within the US. In that he's building on some things President Bush began in the aftermath of 9/11 to combat against lumping all arabs and muslims together.

I don't see much substance to the charges and many of the charges simply echo things that have been said in the past but which now are being linked to other issues. I think Obama was right to note that discrimination against a Muslim community center in New York near the WTC site is contrary to the principles of America and Freedom of Religion. It doesn't take much imagination for detractors to jump on the populist wagon of xenophobia and prejudice to fan controversy for political advantage.

Frankly, I think those doing that are at best ignorant and at worst despicable in their choosing to use these tactics.

I say that a conservative and an independent. I don't have a lot of respect for either party and these types of tactics when they are used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkjFc3S2 ... re=relatedJudge for yourself.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY In this video, Obama repeatedly calls the Koran "holy".

I believe I'm the only Christian here on this forum who voted for Obama. While I must admit that he has done a few things that I believe were flat out wrong, I don't believe that his Muslim heritage has anything to do with his politics..

It was his pastor being questioned on things, not his Imam.

True.
However, this is also concerning. Have you studied the postions of this group he was a member of for 20 years? Pretty scary stuff. The word cult comes to mind.

Gman wrote:I believe I'm the only Christian here on this forum who voted for Obama. While I must admit that he has done a few things that I believe were flat out wrong, I don't believe that his Muslim heritage has anything to do with his politics..

What about his ties with communists and socialists going back to his college days? Do you think that had anything to do with his politics? Gman, I'm interested in what attracted you to Barry Soetoro enough to vote for him. Was it his association with communist-marxists, his extensive political experience , or maybe his history of promoting killing unborn children? Seriously though, I can't see any positive qualities that would be enough to vote for him. Except maybe that he is not John McCain.

Oh I would'nt dismiss his heritage. We all are the sum of our influences and I would think that he would say his Muslim heritage has had some influence.

I don't know his heart, but I don't like his politics. At the least I think he is inexperienced and naive and at the worst I do think he has some unfortunate advisers and ideas. A dangerous combination... It seems to me, IMHO, that he initial momentum has floundered and he doesn't seem to know what to do next. He seems an honorable man in intentions and a wonderful dad with some politics that I flat out disagree with.

RickD wrote: What about his ties with communists and socialists going back to his college days? Do you think that had anything to do with his politics?

Well, he is not a true communist... I guess if we look at the Bible, the Bible also practiced a distribution of wealth to some degree also.. Acts 2:45

RickD wrote:Gman, I'm interested in what attracted you to Barry Soetoro enough to vote for him. Was it his association with communist-marxists, his extensive political experience , or maybe his history of promoting killing unborn children? Seriously though, I can't see any positive qualities that would be enough to vote for him. Except maybe that he is not John McCain.

Bottom line is that I didn't have any more faith in McCain (who also stated that he wouldn't overturn Roe vs Wade) and Palin, who could barely even manage her office in Alaska including her own family.. I just lost faith in them to deliver..

Gman said:

Well, he is not a true communist... I guess if we look at the Bible, the Bible also practiced a distribution of wealth to some degree also.. Acts 2:45

Isn't Acts 2:45 talking about fellowship of believers? I KNOW you didn't mean to imply that selling all possessions to follow Christ is the same as working hard for wages just to have a president take our money away and give it to people who don't have the same work ethic as we do.

Bottom line is that I didn't have any more faith in McCain (who also stated that he wouldn't overturn Roe vs Wade) and Palin, who could barely even manage her office in Alaska including her own family.. I just lost faith in them to deliver..

I can agree with you that McCain really wasn't much better of a choice. I just could never have voted for Obama. My conscience wouldn't have allowed me.

RickD wrote:Gman said:

Well, he is not a true communist... I guess if we look at the Bible, the Bible also practiced a distribution of wealth to some degree also.. Acts 2:45

Isn't Acts 2:45 talking about fellowship of believers? I KNOW you didn't mean to imply that selling all possessions to follow Christ is the same as working hard for wages just to have a president take our money away and give it to people who don't have the same work ethic as we do.

Bottom line is that I didn't have any more faith in McCain (who also stated that he wouldn't overturn Roe vs Wade) and Palin, who could barely even manage her office in Alaska including her own family.. I just lost faith in them to deliver..

I can agree with you that McCain really wasn't much better of a choice. I just could never have voted for Obama. My conscience wouldn't have allowed me.

I think you guys are missing a few of the differences between the two. The big difference was that McCain would have appointed conservatives to the Supreme Court, which would have opened up a repeal of Roe v Wade. I also doubt that McCain would have spent the country into oblivion like Obama is doing.

But McCain doesn't have the charisma, that is for sure.

There is a big difference between socialism, where government collects money and decides how to spend it in the name of "equality", and how Christian communities are supposed to care for each other. I can never understand how people propose to conflate socialism and Christian charity.

PS- GMan, Palin had a lot more leadership experience than Obama at the time of the election...

I think you guys are missing a few of the differences between the two. The big difference was that McCain would have appointed conservatives to the Supreme Court, which would have opened up a repeal of Roe v Wade. I also doubt that McCain would have spent the country into oblivion like Obama is doing.

If McCain was elected, it MAY have opened up a repeal of Roe vs. Wade. I think McCain would have spent the country into oblivion slower than Obama.

But McCain doesn't have the charisma, that is for sure.

Agreed. That's were the Republican party erred by selecting McCain. I think if the Repubs. had a better candidate, Obama probably wouldn't be Pres.

There is a big difference between socialism, where government collects money and decides how to spend it in the name of "equality", and how Christian communities are supposed to care for each other. I can never understand how people propose to conflate socialism and Christian charity.

I agree completely.

PS- GMan, Palin had a lot more leadership experience than Obama at the time of the election...

Sad, but true. The thing that concerns me the most about Obama is his horrible record with Israel. Genesis 12:3 IMO is the main reason America as a country has prospered. Once we as a country(Obama) curse Israel, that imo is the end of our great country.

August wrote:I think you guys are missing a few of the differences between the two. The big difference was that McCain would have appointed conservatives to the Supreme Court, which would have opened up a repeal of Roe v Wade. I also doubt that McCain would have spent the country into oblivion like Obama is doing.

Yes that statement is true.. But previous democratic presidents have usually spent less than republican presidents. That is what I was basing my vote on..



While I admit that they way it is going now is wrong. Spending your way to prosperity is not the way to go. In hindsight, I'm disappointed the way Obama is handling this... He probably won't get my vote the next election..

As for Roe v Wade, there really hasn't been a republican president who has made it a top priority to overturn it. It has never been accomplished so the issue was a moot point for me.

August wrote:There is a big difference between socialism, where government collects money and decides how to spend it in the name of "equality", and how Christian communities are supposed to care for each other. I can never understand how people propose to conflate socialism and Christian charity.

I disagree with socialism, just the grounds that something is needed to be done for those less fortunate. I think if the Church was truly performing it's duty, then we wouldn't be having these types of problems..

August wrote:PS- GMan, Palin had a lot more leadership experience than Obama at the time of the election...

It wasn't just experience for me but also character... Not to offend anyone, I just couldn't put my faith into someone who was more concerned about her wardrobe than her country.. If McCain would have chosen someone else, I would have voted differently. It's just the way I feel about it. Actually both parties to me are corrupt in some way..