Historical Killings - Christians vs Muslim

[sinnerbybirth]

I was wondering, have more people been killed by Christians or Muslims. I had a non-Christian friend tell me more people have been killed by Christians. I don't have any facts to back this up either way. Not to mention I found her statement hard to believe. So, I said I would get back to her later. Do any of you historians have any good numbers and facts I can take her, or back up her claim? This type of history is not my strong point.

Thanks as always and GOD Bless

[smiley]

Muslims. Islam is responsible for over 50% of religious wars in history.

Also:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[cslewislover]

Hey SBB! Some people go out of their way to claim that Christians kill, even putting the Holocaust in their stats. As if Hitler was a Christian! As one guy posted on a blog trying to claim all this stuff, Christians don't kill. We are not to kill others because they are not Christians; we will be persecuted, Jesus says, but we are not to persecute. So, any killing and persecution done by "Christians" is not from our faith. The killing was done in the name of Christ, but it was not done in the will of Christ. On the other hand, Muslims have a long history of officially converting by the sword (it would be a real shame if universities don't teach the reality of Islamic history anymore, out of political correctness; I learned about Islam conversion techniques in university Medieval studies, but it has been a long time). I wouldn't mind finding more out for you, but I can't do more research right at the moment.

[smiley]

Your post is just typical No True Scotsman nonsense. Christians have, and do murder people every day. Sometimes inspired by the Old Testament violence, sometimes for their own selfish needs. Furthermore, a strong case can be made that Hitler considered himself a Christian.

Sam Harris has attempted to use similarly dishonest tactics to blame the atheist atrocities of the 20th century on religion.

But whether it's used by an atheist or a Christian, it's a dishonest and evasive tactic. A Christian is anyone who announces Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

[cslewislover]

Your post is just typical No True Scotsman nonsense. Christians have, and do murder people every day. Sometimes inspired by the Old Testament violence, sometimes for their own selfish needs. Furthermore, a strong case can be made that Hitler considered himself a Christian.

Sam Harris has attempted to use similarly dishonest tactics to blame the atheist atrocities of the 20th century on religion.

But whether it's used by an atheist or a Christian, it's a dishonest and evasive tactic. A Christian is anyone who announces Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

I really disagree. There was a reason for the Reformation (I am talking historical, systematic murders and persecutions, as I thought SBB was - not individual murders). One could go into all kinds of history and theology regarding this. Did you ever read John's letters? He's stronger in how we as Christians are supposed to discern false believers and false prophets than many in the church are today. So sorry, I very much disagree with you. Hitler was no Christian. (While we can't judge, and people can convert on their death-beds, from what I know Hitler did not - and from what I can tell, this is not what you are referring to anyway.)

By the way, people can be deceptive. Christ said there would be people that did miracles and such in his name, but they weren't truly His. I guess you don't care for what Christ Himself said? It's not a black and white issue, since people can be deceptive. If Christians can't discern, at least at some level, what it means to obey Christ, as He Himself told us to do, the we're in deep trouble. This is a command of Christ's. So, might as well give it up, imho. We are to make the world a better place as evidence of Christ's kingdom - take note of all the healing and such that was going on in Christ's time and shortly thereafter. To murder while calling oneself a Christian does the opposite for Christ and His kingdom. There are those who use Christ's name, kill in the name of religion, to bolster themselves while trying to lesson Christ's work.

[Linkmaster1711]

Hey CSLL I agreee with you almost wholeheartedly! Those that kill in the name of Christ have absolutely NO IDEA who Jesus was or what he taught and I struggle to see them as Christians (I know bigoted is coming and intolerant but seriously what is the greatest commandment(s) according to Jesus? People fail at this everyday when they slay someones in Jesus name!)

To the topic creator, what does it matter? If one side killed more would that side be the worse side to pick from? I can tell you right now that everyday there are muslims (in the estimated hundred millions) that want every single American/Christian/Israeli/non-muslim/jew to be beheaded on live television every single day. I can tell you that there are militant groups of Christians (probably stretching in the 20,000+) who wouldn't mind taking some lives in the name of Cultic Christianity and that they represent the wide scale "evil-christianity" that you see on television everyday. I'm not saying all Islaamic believers think this way, I know some that don't but trust me when I say this..... The ones that are ready to commence "Jihad" want to kill every "Infadel" until Allah seizes the world. Even in ancient history Muhammed attacked his own city he was born in and killed every person there, you don't read about that in the Qu'ran but the real undistorted history shows otherwise. The undistorted history of the Crusades is also quite a lot more complicated than an evil Pope seizing military control of the world in the name of Christ. Communism which is also most Islaamic government control is responsible for FAR MORE DEATHS THAN CHRISTIANITY AND MUSLIMS THROUGHOUT THE MILLENIA'S DEATH TOLL COMBINED! That is far more threatening than either, and you won't find many christians in support of communism.... Hope I helped out a little bit.

[smiley]

I really disagree. There was a reason for the Reformation (I am talking historical, systematic murders and persecutions, as I thought SBB was - not individual murders). One could go into all kinds of history and theology regarding this. Did you ever read John's letters? He's stronger in how we as Christians are supposed to discern false believers and false prophets than many in the church are today.

The Bible never uses terms "false believer" or "false faith". Beliefs do not always dictate actions.

Similarly, actions do not dictate beliefs. There are people who live what some would consider "Christian lives" but are not Christians.

The fact that they do not obey Jesus' commandments may mean that they are hypocritical, or not self-consistent, but it is fallacious to say that they are not really Christians by redefining the word in an ad-hoc manner.

By the way, people can be deceptive. Christ said there would be people that did miracles and such in his name, but they weren't truly His.

I don't doubt that. I'm not saying that all Christians will go to Heaven. But they are, by widely-accepted definitions, Christians. We cannot play a No True Scotsman game.

-Christian: "a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination"

I guess you don't care for what Christ Himself said? It's not a black and white issue, since people can be deceptive. If Christians can't discern, at least at some level, what it means to obey Christ, as He Himself told us to do, the we're in deep trouble. This is a command of Christ's. So, might as well give it up, imho. We are to make the world a better place as evidence of Christ's kingdom - take note of all the healing and such that was going on in Christ's time and shortly thereafter. To murder while calling oneself a Christian does the opposite for Christ and His kingdom. There are those who use Christ's name, kill in the name of religion, to bolster themselves while trying to lesson Christ's work.

You are assuming, first, that religious beliefs must always necessarily dictate actions. This is obviously not true. For example, Jesus also said that you must give away all your property to the needy to be His disciple. If you redefine "Christian" into "those who do what Jesus says", then none of us are "true" Christians.

That said, what about the Old Testament? Why are these Christians No True Christians because they chose to follow the violent commandments of the Old Testament?

Perhaps because there are also verses in the Bible that promote peace. True. But so are in the Qur'an, and Muslims could similarly say that the Muslims who killed people were No True Muslims. But that would be just stupid and dishonest.

[B. W.]

You can check out this link as it has these bullet points posted below...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-blo ... 1832/posts

Islamics Launched their Crusades in 630 A.D.

Western Crusades started in 1095 A.D. to Stop Muslim Invasion

The Crusades were started by the Muslims in the year 630 A.D. when Muhammad invaded and conquered Mecca. Later on, Muslims invaded Syria, Iraq, Jerusalem, Iran, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Italy, France, etc. The Western Crusades started around 1095 to try to stop the Islamic aggressive invasions. Islamic Crusades continued even after the Western Crusades.

That's right - please do not let historical progressive revisionist fool you. They have an agenda summed in as the most import thing is to destroy Christianity; therefore, for such this proverb is true: the enemy of my enemy is my friend

Explaining the attempted bashing and lashing out at anyone exposing the truth about Islam in the USA...
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[RickD]

I was wondering, have more people been killed by Christians or Muslims. I had a non-Christian friend tell me more people have been killed by Christians. I don't have any facts to back this up either way. Not to mention I found her statement hard to believe. So, I said I would get back to her later. Do any of you historians have any good numbers and facts I can take her, or back up her claim? This type of history is not my strong point.

Thanks as always and GOD Bless

1 John 3:15 How many Christians are guilty of this? I know I have hated people at one time in my life. In God's eyes, that is murder. The difference is that the Bible doesn't tell people to kill others, where the Koran does. First you would have to ask your friend what her definition of a Christian is. I read a trivia quiz in my newspaper today. It asked to what religion Mormonism is a denomination. The answer was Christianity. People have different definitions of Christian. To some, the Pope is a Christian. To others, he is a cult leader. I suppose some people believe Hitler, and Reverend Wright are Christians.

[sinnerbybirth]

I made a mistake on the subject title, I should have said Christianity vs Islam.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Thanks for the website smiley, I will check it out better tomorrow.

Hey SBB! Some people go out of their way to claim that Christians kill, even putting the Holocaust in their stats. As if Hitler was a Christian!

She said this very thing.

(I am talking historical, systematic murders and persecutions, as I thought SBB was - not individual murders).

Thank you cs, this was more along the line of my question.

To the topic creator, what does it matter?

Hey Linkmaster, In my attempt to defend the Christian Faith I need to better prepare myself to answer questions from people who attempt to smear Christianity. I am attempting to reach someone who has no idea who or what Christ is about, she is just regurgitating disinformation she has been told. And yes you did help me, thank you sir.

You can check out this link as it has these bullet points posted below...

Thank You B.W. I appreciate your help brother.

1 John 3.15 How many Christians are guilty of this? I know I have hated people at one time in my life. In God's eyes, that is murder. The difference is that the Bible doesn't tell people to kill others, where the Koran does. First you would have to ask your friend what her definition of a Christian is. I read a trivia quiz in my newspaper today. It asked to what religion Mormonism is a denomination. The answer was Christianity. People have different definitions of Christian. To some, the Pope is a Christian. To others, he is a cult leader. I suppose some people believe Hitler, and Reverend Wright are Christians.

Great points Rick, Thankyou Sir. I been told "Christians will die for their faith, while Islam will kill for theirs." I will ask her what her definition of a Christian is.

Any other help is appreciated.

Thank You all.

[Gabrielman]

Your post is just typical No True Scotsman nonsense. Christians have, and do murder people every day. Sometimes inspired by the Old Testament violence, sometimes for their own selfish needs. Furthermore, a strong case can be made that Hitler considered himself a Christian.

Sam Harris has attempted to use similarly dishonest tactics to blame the atheist atrocities of the 20th century on religion.

But whether it's used by an atheist or a Christian, it's a dishonest and evasive tactic. A Christian is anyone who announces Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Smiley there are some good threads on this, and we shouldn't take it up here, that is not what this thread about. Maybe you should take this else where, so the thread does not get off topic.

[smiley]

The difference is that the Bible doesn't tell people to kill others

Are you sure about that?

First you would have to ask your friend what her definition of a Christian is. I read a trivia quiz in my newspaper today. It asked to what religion Mormonism is a denomination. The answer was Christianity. People have different definitions of Christian. To some, the Pope is a Christian. To others, he is a cult leader. I suppose some people believe Hitler, and Reverend Wright are Christians.

What your or any individual's definition of "Christian" is completely irrelevant. What matters is the official definition that has been used for over two thousand years. You can't just go around redefining words just because you don't like the implicatons of their traditional meaning.

I'm sure the peaceful Muslims have their own idea of what a "true Muslim" must behave like. Similarly, Sam Harris believes that a "true atheist" would never commit a genocide. But of course, history and logic speak against them.

Smiley there are some good threads on this, and we shouldn't take it up here, that is not what this thread about. Maybe you should take this else where, so the thread does not get off topic.

What? It's not off-topic at all. If we're going to talk about how many people Christians have killed, then you have to establish what the word "Christian" means.

Actually, you don't. We all know what "Christian" means. But we must redefine it for the purpose of not looking like a religion with bloody history.

[RickD]

RickD wrote:The difference is that the Bible doesn't tell people to kill others



Are you sure about that?

Yes, I'm sure. Somebody could make the case that the Bible teaches people to kill if all we did was read the Old Testament. But, If we read the entire Bible, and apply it consistently, that isn't the case.

What your or any individual's definition of "Christian" is completely irrelevant. What matters is the official definition that has been used for over two thousand years. You can't just go around redefining words just because you don't like the implicatons of their traditional meaning.

It isn't irrelevant in the case of someone making a blanket statement like she did. If she is going by what you call the "traditional meaning", then I might not disagree with her.

[smiley]

Yes, I'm sure. Somebody could make the case that the Bible teaches people to kill if all we did was read the Old Testament.

And somebody can make a case that the Qur'an teaches to kill people if we only read the violent verses, but ignore the ones that promote peace.

But, If we read the entire Bible, and apply it consistently, that isn't the case.

Muslims claim the same thing about the Qur'an.

[Gabrielman]

What? It's not off-topic at all. If we're going to talk about how many people Christians have killed, then you have to establish what the word "Christian" means.

Actually, you don't. We all know what "Christian" means. But we must redefine it for the purpose of not looking like a religion with bloody history.

Whatever, I was just trying to say that this thread shouldn't turn into another one of those "who is really saved?" threads. Nothing personal was meant by it. While it may come into the subject matter, I highly doubt that debating it here would be fruitful.