Evidence for God from Science

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:10-13, NKJV)

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind." (Isaiah 65:17, NKJV)

I have been wondering if the Lord will really destroy the universe. At face value this passage does seem to illustrate this, at least to me. On the other hand, I've heard that Peter could simply be refering to just the earth and sky, and not the entire universe, and then Revelation 16:8-9 comes to mind. So... which is it?

Samuel wrote:"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:10-13, NKJV)

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind." (Isaiah 65:17, NKJV)

I have been wondering if the Lord will really destroy the universe. At face value this passage does seem to illustrate this, at least to me. On the other hand, I've heard that Peter could simply be refering to just the earth and sky, and not the entire universe, and then Revelation 16:8-9 comes to mind. So... which is it?

Good question, mu opinion would be this: in order to make all these new - all the old gotta go...

New heavens and New earth implies to me - New stays and the old gone by the means of destruction...
-
-

Well the big bang is supposed to implode if I am correct. Taking everything back to where it came from (God)

So I suppose so... Yes, in sometime, eventually in the material plane everything will be gone.

New heavens and New earth implies to me - New stays and the old gone by the means of destruction...

I take it here 'destruction' means - no longer exists.

Sudsy wrote:

New heavens and New earth implies to me - New stays and the old gone by the means of destruction...

I take it here 'destruction' means - no longer exists.

Key word is dissolved Sudsy - God is not creating from nothing again but re-using existing elements to reshape - purify as one melts gold and as so stated in verse 13...

2 Pe 3:10, 11, 12, 13, 14 - "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

You are reading into the text something that is not there due to a faulty line of reasoning stemming from a Christianized Epicurus line of reasoning which is incorporated every time such read renderings burning, smoke, or great heat.

An example of what great heat does: the first atom bomb test in NM turned sand into glass illustrates what melting in a fervent heat means - change is a coming...

It does note denote annihilation -- Sorry chief...

You can bring a soul /spiritual essence of a being into eternal state of ruin, reaping what they had sown, but it does cease to exist. More evidence of this is found in Revelation 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and Revelation 21:1-2, 4, 27 (note vs 27), Revelation 22:14, 15 after such are rejoined with a body where their exercise of dominion is fulfilled (Gen 1:28) – reaping what they had sown in place contained far from the presence of the Lord….

God keeps his word…one way or the other
-
-

God keeps his word…one way or the other

This we do agree on. It is not our interpretations that He is commited to keep but His Word.

I believe creation will be destroyed and replaced.

How New is New?
Some hold to the restoration view because of the use of the Greek word kainos (new). It means qualitatively new unlike neos which some say can be numerically new. But neos often just means young (Matt. 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37-39; 1 Cor. 5:7; Titus 2:4). In these three gospel examples neos is actually contrasted with kainos. Neos describes the new or young wine as opposed to fermented wine and kainos describes the new wineskins as opposed to old or used wineskins. It’s not just the quality of the wineskins that was new, as if they had been refurbished. The old ones had to be replaced, or the new fermenting wine would cause them to burst.

In Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22 the creation of new heavens and a new earth are described. In each of these verses Isaiah uses the Hebrew word chadash (new or a new thing). The translators of the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament) used the Greek word kainos as the equal of chadash, showing that kainos meant more than just new in quality. Likewise in Revelation 3:12, 21:2 and 21:10-22:5 the New (kainos) Jerusalem is not the earthly city restored. It is the place that Jesus went away to prepare for us. It is a second city.

In Hebrews chapters eight and nine the old covenant is contrasted with the new (kainos) one. In Hebrews 8:7-8, 13 and 9:1, the old covenant is called the protos (first) which again means that the new covenant is the second. Verses 7 and 13 clearly state that kainos refers to a second covenant and that the first is therefore obsolete and will pass away.

In Revelation 21:1 John tells us that he sees the kainos (new) heaven and the kainos (new) earth, because the protos (first) heaven and the protos (first) earth had passed away. If the old is the first then the new must be the second. Every other place in Revelation where protos is used, it means that there is more than one. The comparison of this text with the one in Hebrews 8 makes a strong case for the New Heavens and the New Earth being completely different, not just a restoration.

The word allasso, change or exchange, is used to describe what will happen to our bodies and this creation (compare: 1 Cor. 15:49-53 and Hebrews 1:10-12).

Another word used in describing the reconciliation of both creation and our bodies from corruption is the word luo (to destroy or dissolve). II Peter 3:10-12 uses the word to describe the destruction of this creation. II Corinthians 5:1 refers to the kataluo, tearing down or dissolving; of this body and states that there is a heavenly body to replace it. As with Jesus, we will be raised with a different kind of body (1 Cor. 15:35-38, 42-50; 2 Cor. 5:1; 1 John 3:2).

The first creation will be destroyed (Ps. 102:25-27; Isaiah 34:4, 51:6, 65:17; Matt. 5:18, 24:35; Hebrews 1:10-12; 2 Peter 3:7,10 and 12; Rev. 20:11, 21:1,23 and 22:5) and a second one will be created (Is. 65:17, 66:22; Hebrews 11:9-10,13-16 and 13:14; 2 Peter 3:13; Rev. 21:1-2, 10).

Likewise in Revelation 3:12, 21:2 and 21:10-22:5 the New (kainos) Jerusalem is not the earthly city restored. It is the place that Jesus went away to prepare for us. It is a second city.

Hey dayage, any thoughts on where this New Jerusalem will be located ? I think scripture describes it like a cube - approx. 1200 miles long, wide and high. Whew, I think it will contain many, many people when all is said and done.

Sudsy,

Since I believe the New Earth to be a completely new planet, if the city sits on the earth, geography would be meaningless. But, many see the fact that it is only said to be coming down from heaven (Revelation 3:12; 21:2, 10) to mean that it just hovers above the New Earth. I do not know.

I found this article interesting. I didn't know the Mormons think it will be centered around Independence Missouri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem

I think it seems apparent near the end of Revelations that the universe will be destroyed, prior to the White Throne Judgement. In John's vision, he describes seeing the sky and the Earth rolling up like a scroll which puts images in my head of everything being anihilated.
Science itself also suggests that the universe will not last forever since the galaxies are flying apart at an increasing rate so God would have to stop that in order to maintain the current universe.

My personal literal interpretation is that sometime after the universe is destroyed, be it by God himself, the Big Rip, or by Heat Death, every consciousness of every existing thing past/present/future will find themselves before God somewhere in timeless/spacelessness and either be judged for their sin or accepted by God if they have Christ's sacrifice. Then I think the New Jerusalem represents a brand new universe (new Big Bang, new set of physics, new space time continuum, new everything), in which inhabitants have direct access to God at all times. This universe, unlike ours, would probably be static and eternal somehow.