Why are there so many non-believers?

[Montana]

If it is the case that God wants all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), then why hasn't God made Himself known to a point where it is obvious He is the one true God?

Some may say that free will must remain intact. But God, being God, can make His presence known (or at least, more obvious) while not destroying free will. He does this quite often in the OT, and Jesus and the apostles do this in the NT. Showing others that there really does exist a god, and it is the God of the Bible is not a removal or detriment to free will (as evidenced throughout the Bible).

So if God wants all to be saved, has the power to provide more compelling evidence of His existence...why doesn't He provide for people today, what (or how) He provided back then? Why is there so much widespread non-belief?

Of course, there will always be some who cannot accept regardless of what is shown to them or how it is done. That is not the issue. The issue is why are there so many who do not believe? The overwhelming majority of people do not believe, despite God wanting them to.

[Gman]

If it is the case that God wants all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), then why hasn't God made Himself known to a point where it is obvious He is the one true God.

Well when you boil it all down.. You will find that God (Christ) is the one true God. The problem is that man doesn't necessarily seek him. It's an issue of heart.. Jeremiah 29:13

Some may say that free will must remain intact. But God, being God, can make His presence known (or at least, more obvious) while not destroying free will. He does this quite often in the OT, and Jesus and the apostles do this in the NT. Showing others that there really does exist a god, and it is the God of the Bible is not a removal or detriment to free will (as evidenced throughout the Bible).

So if God wants all to be saved, has the power to provide more compelling evidence of His existence...why doesn't He provide for people today, what (or how) He provided back then? Why is there so much widespread non-belief?

God reveals himself everyday to all people.. In nature, through words, through people.. Also you cannot use science to disprove God either if that is what you mean... It 's not possible. While there are weights of evidence, but no information is conclusive. There is no such thing as a 100 percent proof of anything when it comes to science.

Of course, there will always be some who cannot accept regardless of what is shown to them or how it is done. That is not the issue. The issue is why are there so many who do not believe? The overwhelming majority of people do not believe, despite God wanting them to.

I believe it depends on the believer.. Some seek God through more factual matters.. Others through heart felt words or love.. Again, God can't force anyone to believe. He didn't make robots. His hands are tied until we untie them..

So how does one draw closer to God? Well besides accepting Him as your lord and savior, there is also prayer involved and the confessing of sin in your life.. And what is sin? Anything that isn't loving.. Pornography, lust, hatred, unable to confess your wrongs, pride, materialism, unforgiveness, bitterness, envy, etc..

In other words... That is why God is so unpopular today.. Who would ever confess that their life has sin in it?? That is why God is so unpopular...

[smiley]

This is called the problem of Divine Hiddenness, and in my opinion, it's probably one of the strongest objections that can be raised against the God of Christianity.

It can be stated as it follows:

1. God (of Christianity) wants all people to believe in Him
2. God can make evidence of His existence accessable to all people
3. Yet, there are good, honest, reasonable people who choose not to believe in the Christian God

And while I have come up with some more or less satisfying answers to it, they require adopting either Open Theism or Inclusivism. I have to say, I was close to abandoning Christianity when I realized how futile it is to try to rationalize this issue on Classical Theism.

I'm going to try to show why in this thread.

Well when you boil it all down.. You will find that God (Christ) is the one true God. The problem is that man doesn't necessarily seek him. It's an issue of heart.. Jeremiah 29:13

Sorry Gman, that's total nonsense. There are millions of people in the world who want know who the true God is, and yet end up believing in Allah or some other god.

The religion you will adopt is highly dependent upon the culture you are born in. Hence, most Japanese people are Buddhists, most Americans are Christians, and most Egyptians are Muslims.

God reveals himself everyday to all people.. In nature, through words, through people..

He's asking why there is reasonable non-belief, despite God revealing HImself. You haven't answered that.

I believe it depends on the believer.. Some seek God through more factual matters.. Others through heart felt words or love.. Again, God can't force anyone to believe. He didn't make robots. His hands are tied until we untie them..

So how does one draw closer to God? Well besides accepting Him as your lord and savior, there is also prayer involved and the confessing of sin in your life.. And what is sin? Anything that isn't loving.. Pornography, lust, hatred, unable to confess your wrongs, pride, materialism, unforgiveness, bitterness, envy, etc..

In other words... That is why God is so unpopular today.. Who would ever confess that their life has sin in it?? That is why God is so unpopular...

Again, this is total nonsense. There are Muslims and Hindus who are just as commited to their gods as are Christians.

[Gman]

Sorry Gman, that's total nonsense. There are millions of people in the world who want know who the true God is, and yet end up believing in Allah or some other god.

Yes.. Well a careful examination of all faiths should be in order.. That meaning studying all the faiths.. Such as Islam, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc..

More here..
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... gions.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ntro3.html

The religion you will adopt is highly dependent upon the culture you are born with. Hence, most Japanese people are Buddhists, most Americans are Christians, and most Egyptians are Muslims.

Actually that isn't necessarily true. The Bible is actually a middle-eastern faith which originated in the land of Israel.. It's not western thought at all. I'm of European dissent. Europeans were not Bible believers. Europeans worshiped the Norse gods, the gods of the druids, The Greek god's etc.. before Christianity.

He's asking why there is reasonable non-belief. You haven't answered that.

I believe I have... Please explain to me how there is a reasonable non-belief..

Again, this is total nonsense. There are Muslims and Hindus who are just as commited to their gods as are Christians.

Again I would challenge to line them up together and compare them.. I own two Korans and the Hindu scriptures.. The logical choice is the God of the Bible..

[Montana]

Yes.. Well a careful examination of all faiths should be in order.. That meaning studying all the faiths.. Such as Islam, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc..

Are you saying then, that everyone who employs reason, and studying all religions, will naturally and reasonably come to Christianity? That there is no way one would be able to reasonably choose another faith?

Actually that isn't necessarily true. The Bible is actually a middle-eastern faith which originated in the land of Israel.. It's not western thought at all. I'm of European dissent. Europeans were not Bible believers. Europeans worshiped the Norse gods, the gods of the druids, The Greek god's etc.. before Christianity.

But didn't those faiths spread geographically? I think he's talking about now. It is true that Christianity is not the predominate religion in Japan, China, India, etc... Are you saying that Christianity isn't the predominate religion because the population of those countries are not reasonable? And the population of westernized, Christian nations are reasonable? This seems to be a measure of how to determine which country has the most people who employ reason then. Find the country with the most Christians in it (or highest per capita), and we will have found the most reasonable country in the world. And if this is the case, then by virtue of being the most reasonable, they ought to be reasonable in all areas...and therefore the country should exhibit highest standards in practically all categories across the board (health, education, economy, etc...). Is this your position? If not...then how do you rectify the "Christianity is the most reasonable" statement you are making?

Again I would challenge to line them up together and compare them.. I own two Korans and the Hindu scriptures.. The logical choice is the God of the Bible..

But this seems to be saying that no reasonable being could be Muslim or Hindu. Is this really the position?

[Montana]

And while I have come up with some more or less satisfying answers to it, they require adopting either Open Theism or Inclusivism. I have to say, I was close to abandoning Christianity when I realized how futile it is to try to rationalize this issue on Classical Theism.

You have come close to abandoning Christianity, but haven't? If you haven't, why not? And how do you answer the seeming problem in my post?

[smiley]

Yes.. Well a careful examination of all faiths should be in order.. That meaning studying all the faiths.. Such as Islam, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc..

Okay, I don't know where to start.

1. A very minority of people on the planet have access to the holy books of all religions in the world.

2. An even smaller minority of people have the time to actually thoroughly study them.

3. A great deal of people who have both access to the holy books of other religions and time to study them lack the relevant education to adequately compare them.

4. Some who do study them come to drastically different conclusions that you and Rich Deem did. I'll elaborate more below.

Here's how the famous theologian William Lane Craig summarized it, much more eloquently than I can. Just substitute "historical evidence" with "scientific evidence".

"So what is the problem with basing religious beliefs on historical proofs? The problem, it seems to me, is the relativity of the historical evidence as well as one’s ability to grasp it. We have both the manuscript evidence and the evaluative historical tools to provide a good foundation for belief in Jesus as the Gospels describe him. But what about earlier generations which lacked the evidence and the tools we enjoy? The fact is that the vast majority of people throughout history and in the world today have had neither the training, the time, nor the resources to conduct a historical investigation of the evidence for Jesus. If we insist on a historical, evidential foundation for faith, then we consign most of the world’s population to unbelief and thus deny them the privilege and joy of knowing God in Christ. To me this is unconscionable. This, then, is the ugly, broad ditch which confronts us: the gap between people’s historically conditioned epistemic situation and the evidence required to warrant Christian belief."

More here..
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... gions.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ntro3.html

I've read Rich's arguments a long time ago. They are completely unconvincing when you put a little thought into them.

First, Muslims make the same arguments. They claim that the Qur'an is full of "scientific miracles". Hindus do the same. They all genuinely think their religion makes the most sense. Hindus have actual documented evidence of miracles performed by their gods, like the famous Hindu milk miracle (google it if you aren't familiar with it). And as I'm sure you have objections to their arguments, so do they with respect to Christianity. They have studied, and reasonably chosen not to believe in Jesus, just like you have with their religions.

Second, the Bible is filled with scientific errors. With respect to scientific accuracy, it is no different than other holy books. Deny this all you want, but the only way to explain away the numerous incosistencies (e.g. the earth and sky are held up by pillars, the earth is surrounded by waters populated with threatening sea monsters (Rahab, Leviathan), the sky is as hard “as a molten mirror” (Job 37:18) and holds water above it, the sky has windows in it that God opens up so it can rain on the earth (e.g. Gen. 7:11), etc etc), is to label them as figurative or as products of cultural conditioning. But you can do the same with the holy books of other religions.

Third, even if it is conceded that evidence points at Christianity, most people who walked the planet earth have not had access to it.

This is either due to geographical or historical misfortune (how can someone, for example, born in the 16th century be blamed for not believing in Jesus?)

Fourth, Rich's argument also supports Judaism.

Actually that isn't necessarily true. The Bible is actually a middle-eastern faith which originated in the land of Israel.. I'm of European dissent. Europeans were not Bible believers. Europeans worshiped the Norse gods, the gods of the druids

No, it is absolutely true. It is a statistical fact that you are the most likely going to embrace the religion of your parents. The fact that Christianity originated in Europe is irrelevant.

I believe I have... Please explain to me how there is a reasonable non-belief..

The fact that there are millions of honest, good, reasonable non-Christians.

Again I would challenge to line them up together and compare them.. I own two Korans and the Hindu scriptures.. The logical choice is the God of the Bible..

Already covered this above. Even if this point is conceded, there are numerous other problems you have to deal with.

[smiley]

And while I have come up with some more or less satisfying answers to it, they require adopting either Open Theism or Inclusivism. I have to say, I was close to abandoning Christianity when I realized how futile it is to try to rationalize this issue on Classical Theism.

You have come close to abandoning Christianity, but haven't? If you haven't, why not? And how do you answer the seeming problem in my post?

Okay, here's the short answer. I believe that it is Satan and his minions that are hiding God and the spiritual world from us, and that God is revealing Himself as much as He can given the limitations of this fallen world.

This, of course, raises the question of why God doesn't flex His muscle and destroy Satan for which I recommend reading Satan and the problem of evil by Greg Boyd (he argues the problem of evil in the book, but the same reasoning can be applied to the problem of Divine Hiddenness).

You can read a summary of his arguments in these articles:

http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-s ... worldview/
http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-s ... worldview/

Note, however, that adopting this theodicy requires Open Theism.

Without that, though, I see absolutely no way to get around the argument. Not that this theodicy doesn't have its weaknesses, but it's far, far more sensible than the idea that all non-Christians are unreasonable, selfish, and so on.

[Gman]

Okay, I don't know where to start.

1. A very minority of people on the planet have access to the holy books of all religions in the world.

2. An even smaller minority of people have the time to actually thoroughly study them

3. A great deal of people who have both access to the holy books of other religions and time to study them lack the relevant education to adequately compare them.

4. Some who do study them come to drastically different conclusions that you and Rich Deem did. I'll elaborate more below.

Here's how the famous theologian William Lane Craig summarized it, much more eloquently than I can. Just substitute "historical evidence" with "scientific evidence".

"So what is the problem with basing religious beliefs on historical proofs? The problem, it seems to me, is the relativity of the historical evidence as well as one’s ability to grasp it. We have both the manuscript evidence and the evaluative historical tools to provide a good foundation for belief in Jesus as the Gospels describe him. But what about earlier generations which lacked the evidence and the tools we enjoy? The fact is that the vast majority of people throughout history and in the world today have had neither the training, the time, nor the resources to conduct a historical investigation of the evidence for Jesus. If we insist on a historical, evidential foundation for faith, then we consign most of the world’s population to unbelief and thus deny them the privilege and joy of knowing God in Christ. To me this is unconscionable. This, then, is the ugly, broad ditch which confronts us: the gap between people’s historically conditioned epistemic situation and the evidence required to warrant Christian belief."

I believe that question is answered here..

What will happen to the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ?

I've read Rich's arguments a long time ago. They are completely unconvincing when you put a little thought into them.

First, Muslims make the same arguments. They claim that the Qur'an is full of "scientific miracles". Hindus do the same. They all genuinely think their religion makes the most sense. Hindus have actual documented evidence of miracles performed by their gods, like the famous Hindu milk miracle (google it if you aren't familiar with it). And as I'm sure you have objections to their arguments, so do they with respect to Christianity. They have studied, and reasonably chosen not to believe in Jesus, just like you have with their religions.

Again.. I would say if you put the faiths side by side and compared them, Christianity would win hands down.. Christianity is the "only" faith that claims that you CANNOT work for your salvation. You CANNOT achieve it through good works. It is only through faith that one is saved. Romans 11:6

One top of that, the God of the Bible is making the claim that He is a God of LOVE. 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16. No other faith is making this claim. Nor is it ever commanded in other scriptures that one should "love" their neighbor or their god.. Isn't love the ultimate answer for mankind?

Second, the Bible is filled with scientific errors. With respect to scientific accuracy, it is no different than other holy books. Deny this all you want, but the only way to explain away the numerous incosistencies (e.g. the earth and sky are held up by pillars, the earth is surrounded by waters populated with threatening sea monsters (Rahab, Leviathan), the sky is as hard “as a molten mirror” (Job 37:18) and holds water above it, the sky has windows in it that God opens up so it can rain on the earth (e.g. Gen. 7:11), etc etc), is to label them as figurative or as products of cultural conditioning. But you can do the same with the holy books of other religions.

Faith is relevant to science in that it can furnish a conceptual framework in which science can exist. Christianity did furnish the conceptual framework in which modern science was born. Science can verify and falsify the claim of religion. When religions make claims about the natural world, they intersect the domain of science and are in affect making predictions in which scientific investigations can either verify or falsify.

Example, science can certainly be used to falsify religion. Consider ancient Greek and Indian religions that the heavens or the world rested upon the shoulders of atlas, or on the back of a turtle were easily falsified.

The Bible is most certainly making a claim about creation which can be scientifically verified.

The scientific proof for Genesis

About your other scientific claims that is answered here..

The Bible Teaches That the Heavens Were a Solid Dome, Embedded with Stars?

Third, even if it is conceded that evidence points at Christianity, most people who walked the planet earth have not had access to it.

This is either due to geographical or historical misfortune (how can someone, for example, born in the 16th century be blamed for not believing in Jesus?)

Again.. I believe that question is answered here..

What will happen to the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ?

Fourth, Rich's argument also supports Judaism.

Hopefully.. They are one of the same..

Actually that isn't necessarily true. The Bible is actually a middle-eastern faith which originated in the land of Israel.. I'm of European dissent. Europeans were not Bible believers. Europeans worshiped the Norse gods, the gods of the druids

No, it is absolutely true. It is a statistical fact that you are the most likely going to embrace the religion of your parents. The fact that Christianity originated in Europe is irrelevant.

Chriatianity most certainly did not originate in Europe. It's a middle eastern faith.. If you have evidence to the contrary, then please post it.

The fact that there are millions of honest, good, reasonable non-Christians.

Oh yes... And according to the Bible they will be judged on the law written in their hearts.. Romans 2:14-16

Already covered this above. Even if this point is conceded, there are numerous other problems you have to deal with.

Again my claim is that the most logical conclusion is the God of the Bible.. If you take the time to study what it means, people would be drawn to it in a heart beat.

[Gman]

Are you saying then, that everyone who employs reason, and studying all religions, will naturally and reasonably come to Christianity? That there is no way one would be able to reasonably choose another faith?

If love is your guide... Then yes... I believe it is the most logical path to love which IS God. Show me a god that has ever died for mankind..

But didn't those faiths spread geographically? I think he's talking about now. It is true that Christianity is not the predominate religion in Japan, China, India, etc...

And now.. Is Christianity the most predominate faith in Europe? I believe it has been replaced by other gods and secularism.

Are you saying that Christianity isn't the predominate religion because the population of those countries are not reasonable? And the population of westernized, Christian nations are reasonable? This seems to be a measure of how to determine which country has the most people who employ reason then. Find the country with the most Christians in it (or highest per capita), and we will have found the most reasonable country in the world. And if this is the case, then by virtue of being the most reasonable, they ought to be reasonable in all areas...and therefore the country should exhibit highest standards in practically all categories across the board (health, education, economy, etc...). Is this your position? If not...then how do you rectify the "Christianity is the most reasonable" statement you are making?

Let me ask you a question.. If you were on a rough neighborhood that has had a history of killings and murders, would you feel safer going out on a street corner at night with a group of people that have just left a church or had just left a crack house?

But this seems to be saying that no reasonable being could be Muslim or Hindu. Is this really the position?

Yes.. That is my position.. If you compare all the faiths, Christianity wins hands down, even if you claim you are an atheist...

[jlay]

Are you saying then, that everyone who employs reason, and studying all religions, will naturally and reasonably come to Christianity? That there is no way one would be able to reasonably choose another faith?

If they REASONABLY study all the facts, yes. Anyone imploying reason alone would chose what is historically accurate and prophetically proven, and reject what is not. This would cause a rejection of everything but the Judeo/Christian faith.
Now, just find me a person who operates off of reason alone.

If a person is acting on reason alone, then they should believe the truth. If Christianity is a lie, then it should be easy enough to disprove. Sadly, people do not accept or reject things on reason alone. If so, we wouldn't have wars, drunk driving, etc. Just having the proof to believe doesn't automatically mean one will believe.

[BavarianWheels]

.
.
Being a Christian is not an easy matter to deal with. Christ tells us we will endure much opposition BECAUSE of Him.

Being a Christian takes faith with lots of discipline to stick with what is right.
The world is out to show you/me that "Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run..."

Christ told us that WIDE is the path that leads to destruction and narrow which leads to life. Inevitably most will go where it is easiest.
.
.

[N4SC]

Titus 2:11.

Wow, that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? Since all Scripture is God-Breathed, and God doesn't lie, this verse is true.
And since this verse is true, that means the people that are non-believers have seen the grace of God in some form
since the time when they were first able to tell right from wrong and decided to not believe. It's pretty simple.

[dayage]

Smiley,

Second, the Bible is filled with scientific errors. With respect to scientific accuracy, it is no different than other holy books. Deny this all you want, but the only way to explain away the numerous incosistencies (e.g. the earth and sky are held up by pillars, the earth is surrounded by waters populated with threatening sea monsters (Rahab, Leviathan), the sky is as hard “as a molten mirror” (Job 37:18) and holds water above it, the sky has windows in it that God opens up so it can rain on the earth (e.g. Gen. 7:11), etc etc), is to label them as figurative or as products of cultural conditioning. But you can do the same with the holy books of other religions.

Most of what you have presented here is figurative and actually is found in poetic passages. Genesis 7:11 uses windows as a reference to clouds.

You like so many others have not taken the time to study the context and language of Job 37, so I'll do it for you.

36:27 For He draws up drops of water, they distill as rain in His rain cloud (ed),
28 Those clouds (shachaq) pour down, they drip upon man abundantly.
29 Can anyone understand the spreading (miphras) of the cloud (ab), the thundering of His pavilion?
30 Behold, He spreads (paras) His lightning (owr) above, and He fills the depths of the sea.
31 For by these He judges peoples; He gives food in abundance.
32 He fills His hands with lightning (owr), and commands it to strike the mark.
33 Its noise declares His presence; the cattle also, concerning what is coming up.

[dayage]

37:1 At this also my heart trembles, and leaps from its place.
2 Listen closely to the thunder of His voice, and the rumbling that goes out from His mouth.
3 Under the whole heaven He lets it loose, and His lightning (owr) to the ends of the earth.
4 After it, a voice roars; He thunders with His majestic voice; And He does not restrain them when His voice is heard.
5 God thunders with His voice wondrously, doing great things which we cannot comprehend.
6 For to the snow and to the rain shower and His mighty downpours, He says, "Fall on the earth."
7 He stops the labor of every man, that all men may know His work.
8 Then the beast goes into its lair, and remains in its den.
9 From its chamber comes the whirlwind and cold from the scattering winds.
10 From the breath of God ice is made, and the expanse of the waters is frozen.
11 Also with moisture He loads the cloud (ab); He scatters the cloud (anan) of His lightning.
12 And it changes directions, by His counsels, to do all which He commands them upon the face of the whole earth.
13 Whether for correction, or for His land, or for loving-kindness, He causes it to happen.
14 Listen to this, O Job, stand and consider the wonders of God.
15 Do you know how God establishes them, and makes the lightning (owr) of His cloud (anan) to shine?
16 Do you know about the layers of the clouds (ab), the wonders of one perfect in knowledge,
17 You whose garments are hot, when the land is quieted by a south wind?
18 Can you, with Him, spread out (raqa) the clouds (shachaq), strong as a cast mirror?
19 Teach us what we should say to Him, for we can arrange nothing in the face of the darkness.
20 Should He be told that I want to speak? Would any man ask that he be swallowed up?
21 And now men do not see the bright lightning (owr) which is in the clouds (shachaq), since the wind has passed and has cleared them.
22 Out of the north comes golden splendor; Around God is awesome majesty.