Evidence for God from Science

Hello, this question has to do with my specific God given purpose and destiny in this life. My question is, does God have a distinct plan (i.e. a destiny or many small specific plans for us i.e. the right or specific spouse, job, place to attend church) or does He let us make our own decisions in all areas and does not have a specific planned or selected best plan for each of our lives? Because when I first accepted Christ and was attending my family's church I was always told that God had a specific plan or plans for your life such as the right kind of job to get into. And to find that out what His will is you had to pray and believe that He would show you His will for your life. Now up until since getting into apologetics that's what I held to. But when I started looking into apologetics articles that deal with this area, I got a completely different answer. Here is an example of one of those articles, this one by one of my favorite apologists Greg Kokul http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5291 So from what you all have experienced and have studied, which view of God's guidance do you hold to. Currently I'm leaning towards what Kokul is saying for now. But if you all have anything to add or mention about this feel free to do so. Thanks and God bless.

derrick09 wrote:Hello, this question has to do with my specific God given purpose and destiny in this life. My question is, does God have a distinct plan (i.e. a destiny or many small specific plans for us i.e. the right or specific spouse, job, place to attend church) or does He let us make our own decisions in all areas and does not have a specific planned or selected best plan for each of our lives?

God has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do, that you feel lead by the Holy Spirit to do, is part of that plan. However just because God has a plan on your life, does not mean that you will fulfill it entirely. You see we have a free will, and we are also imperfect beings. Given these two things, we can see that we will 1. Choose to sin and defy God due to our sin nature, and 2. Because of that, we fail God in some way and we fail to succeed in His plan for us. However this does not through things off, we are talking about an almighty God here, He already knows what will happen, and therefore has a plan to fix things. Now I am not going into a lot of detail about this, as my head hurts a lot right now, so let me know if I helped or if I should say more....

derrick09 wrote:Because when I first accepted Christ and was attending my family's church I was always told that God had a specific plan or plans for your life such as the right kind of job to get into. And to find that out what His will is you had to pray and believe that He would show you His will for your life. Now up until since getting into apologetics that's what I held to. But when I started looking into apologetics articles that deal with this area, I got a completely different answer. Here is an example of one of those articles, this one by one of my favorite apologists Greg Kokul http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5291 So from what you all have experienced and have studied, which view of God's guidance do you hold to. Currently I'm leaning towards what Kokul is saying for now. But if you all have anything to add or mention about this feel free to do so. Thanks and God bless.

I have not checked out that link yet, but I will look into it. Maybe he will have a better answer, lol, and I am always willing to learn. However I would like to dialogue with you about this and see what we can come up with if we put our heads together.

Any one else care to add anything?

God Bless!!!!! And keep asking questions! I like it!

I have to disagree with my brother Gabrielman. While God foreknows our everything action and choice, we are by and large not a 'project' of His. My destiny, whatever that may be, God undoubtedly knows. If I am to die tomorrow, then God knows this. But we can hardly say that this is a part of some plan of His. If so, then I myself wouldn't be too impressed with the Big Man on that score.

God created the best possible world for His purpose, which includes an eternal, loving relationship with us. He knows everything that is about to happen. But Him planning every action for every one - I don't buy it at all.

I tend to currently agree with your view Danny which is similar to Greg Kokul's view, and I also think that many other apologists are catching onto it as well. But as far as in most local churches and in mainstream Christianity (where there way too much emotionalism and confusion of doctrine) they still hold to this view that God somehow specifically selects the right job, spouse, home, car and so on for each person, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will. Which to me, doesn't jive well with my own personal experience. I guess I don't have the ability to sense God like some people can (or to be more frank and honest, I think a lot of people's 'God experiences' are self-induced from random emotions and sensations). But it's also interesting to note that many people like this, in addition, don't have much knowledge of Christian inteliectualism and apologetics. But as for the ones that do, those are the ones I"m willing to talk to and see if they can help bridge the gap between solid Christian doctrine, Christian intellectualism, and true, solid God/person contact.

God created the best possible world for His purpose, which includes an eternal, loving relationship with us. He knows everything that is about to happen. But Him planning every action for every one - I don't buy it at all.

Not to speak for Gabe, but in reading his post, this is not what I hear him communicating. I only hear him saying that God's plans are perfect. It is our will that causes us to miss His plan being fulfilled in our lives.

they still hold to this view that God somehow specifically selects the right job, spouse, home, car and so on for each person, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will.

this is a very unfortunate corruptions we are seeing in the christian world today. The word of faith movement, emergent church, etc. Paula White, joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers and several others.

derrick09 wrote:I tend to currently agree with your view Danny which is similar to Greg Kokul's view, and I also think that many other apologists are catching onto it as well. But as far as in most local churches and in mainstream Christianity (where there way too much emotionalism and confusion of doctrine) they still hold to this view that God somehow specifically selects the right job, spouse, home, car and so on for each person, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will. Which to me, doesn't jive well with my own personal experience. I guess I don't have the ability to sense God like some people can (or to be more frank and honest, I think a lot of people's 'God experiences' are self-induced from random emotions and sensations). But it's also interesting to note that many people like this, in addition, don't have much knowledge of Christian inteliectualism and apologetics. But as for the ones that do, those are the ones I"m willing to talk to and see if they can help bridge the gap between solid Christian doctrine, Christian intellectualism, and true, solid God/person contact.

This brings up an interesting point - what about Grace?

In BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) last night we began this years study in Isaiah. One point made during the lecture segment was how the Israel and Judah both became too works oriented n attainment of God's favor and blessings, then went on to spend these blessing on pagan Idol's in service to them as well. So when I read in the above quoted post, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will, I could not help but think of what was brought out in the Fort Collins, CO local BSF group least night and adding to it:

Ancient Israel and Judah in Isaiah’s time blended pagan Idols into the Temple worship, as well went off to serve the pagan statues with associated rites. We may not do this nowadays but we do have new Idols in our hearts we serve that are just as bad.

Are we guilty of the same, misappropriating God's gifts, blessings, callings to serve the idols of selfish desire, gain, mind, our own ends, etc: whatever these new idols are?
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jlay wrote:

God created the best possible world for His purpose, which includes an eternal, loving relationship with us. He knows everything that is about to happen. But Him planning every action for every one - I don't buy it at all.

Not to speak for Gabe, but in reading his post, this is not what I hear him communicating. I only hear him saying that God's plans are perfect. It is our will that causes us to miss His plan being fulfilled in our lives.

they still hold to this view that God somehow specifically selects the right job, spouse, home, car and so on for each person, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will.

this is a very unfortunate corruptions we are seeing in the christian world today. The word of faith movement, emergent church, etc. Paula White, joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers and several others.

"God has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do." Gab. Now Gab might be right, though I doubt it. But I'm clearly not misunderstanding him.

J, what is this "faith movement" you speak of and all these names of people I have never heard of? Why do we label everything with the names of some person or 'movement'? Like 'Calvinism' and Molinism' etc.? I'm completely underwhelmed by all this labelling after man. I know this is a body-swerve from the thread, but I'd appreciate a quick answer if possible.

B. W. wrote:

derrick09 wrote:I tend to currently agree with your view Danny which is similar to Greg Kokul's view, and I also think that many other apologists are catching onto it as well. But as far as in most local churches and in mainstream Christianity (where there way too much emotionalism and confusion of doctrine) they still hold to this view that God somehow specifically selects the right job, spouse, home, car and so on for each person, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will. Which to me, doesn't jive well with my own personal experience. I guess I don't have the ability to sense God like some people can (or to be more frank and honest, I think a lot of people's 'God experiences' are self-induced from random emotions and sensations). But it's also interesting to note that many people like this, in addition, don't have much knowledge of Christian inteliectualism and apologetics. But as for the ones that do, those are the ones I"m willing to talk to and see if they can help bridge the gap between solid Christian doctrine, Christian intellectualism, and true, solid God/person contact.

This brings up an interesting point - what about Grace?

In BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) last night we began this years study in Isaiah. One point made during the lecture segment was how the Israel and Judah both became too works oriented n attainment of God's favor and blessings, then went on to spend these blessing on pagan Idol's in service to them as well. So when I read in the above quoted post, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will, I could not help but think of what was brought out in the Fort Collins, CO local BSF group least night and adding to it:

Ancient Israel and Judah in Isaiah’s time blended pagan Idols into the Temple worship, as well went off to serve the pagan statues with associated rites. We may not do this nowadays but we do have new Idols in our hearts we serve that are just as bad.

Are we guilty of the same, misappropriating God's gifts, blessings, callings to serve the idols of selfish desire, gain, mind, our own ends, etc: whatever these new idols are?
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Forgive me, but what has this to do with the post you quoted, B.W.?

Will we have a William Lane-Craigism before we let our guard down? Lord, help us! I think the boy Craig is great, but please let us do out utmost to prevent him from becoming an ism.

1. God created a world in which evil is allowed to exist. For free choice to exist there has to be the chance for evil to exist.

2. God does not predetermine our every move.

3. God does have foreknowledge of our every move.

4. But God did not make or cause me to make every decision and choice I have made...God did not pre-program DannyM to lose his virginity at 15 and father a child at 36. Nor did God intervene in and puppet those and all other events in DannyM's life. He did, however, have foreknowledge that DannyM would lose his virginity at 15 and father a child at 36 and pick his nose at 3:33 PM on January the 14th 1978. There's a difference. Did He will or plan all or any of this? No, of course He didn't.

5. Why would God intervene at every step in your life? Where's the fun in that? Where's the free will if this was to be the case? God would be bored to tears I'm sure if this were His style.

6. God having foreknowledge of our every move does not negate the fredom of the will. God predetermining and thus orchestrating our every move most certainly does negate the freedom of the will.

Just my two Pence

derrick09 wrote:I tend to currently agree with your view Danny which is similar to Greg Kokul's view, and I also think that many other apologists are catching onto it as well. But as far as in most local churches and in mainstream Christianity (where there way too much emotionalism and confusion of doctrine) they still hold to this view that God somehow specifically selects the right job, spouse, home, car and so on for each person, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will. Which to me, doesn't jive well with my own personal experience. I guess I don't have the ability to sense God like some people can (or to be more frank and honest, I think a lot of people's 'God experiences' are self-induced from random emotions and sensations). But it's also interesting to note that many people like this, in addition, don't have much knowledge of Christian inteliectualism and apologetics. But as for the ones that do, those are the ones I"m willing to talk to and see if they can help bridge the gap between solid Christian doctrine, Christian intellectualism, and true, solid God/person contact.

Right. We have a large percentage of Christians who put every mishap, every unfortunate event, every tragedy, down to the simple, and rather convenient, "Oh well it must be God's will at play here." Well woop di doo, we have an answer!

God having foreknowledge of events is beyond doubt in my mind. But God treating every event in every person's life as a little pet project? Drop me out!

DannyM wrote:

jlay wrote:

God created the best possible world for His purpose, which includes an eternal, loving relationship with us. He knows everything that is about to happen. But Him planning every action for every one - I don't buy it at all.

Not to speak for Gabe, but in reading his post, this is not what I hear him communicating. I only hear him saying that God's plans are perfect. It is our will that causes us to miss His plan being fulfilled in our lives.

they still hold to this view that God somehow specifically selects the right job, spouse, home, car and so on for each person, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will.

this is a very unfortunate corruptions we are seeing in the christian world today. The word of faith movement, emergent church, etc. Paula White, joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers and several others.

"God has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do." Gab. Now Gab might be right, though I doubt it. But I'm clearly not misunderstanding him.

J, what is this "faith movement" you speak of and all these names of people I have never heard of? Why do we label everything with the names of some person or 'movement'? Like 'Calvinism' and Molinism' etc.? I'm completely underwhelmed by all this labelling after man. I know this is a body-swerve from the thread, but I'd appreciate a quick answer if possible.

danny, this link gives an overview of the word-faith movement. Another similar movement is the "prosperity gospel" or, "name-it-and-claim-it gospel"http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html

"God has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do." Gab. Now Gab might be right, though I doubt it. But I'm clearly not misunderstanding him.

Yes you are. Because you have quoted him out of context.

God has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do, that you feel lead by the Holy Spirit to do, is part of that plan. However just because God has a plan on your life, does not mean that you will fulfill it entirely. You see we have a free will, and we are also imperfect beings.

Danny, not to be argumentative, but you CLEARLY took what Gabe said out of context and drew a conclusion that is NOT in keeping with the entirity of the statement.

But Him planning every action for every one

Gabe didn't say this. Gabe clearly stated that what we are led by the Holy Spirit to do is what is planned by God. You do notice that you cut and pasted only part of this thought don't you?? I understand making that mistake the first time. Maybe you read through it in a hurry. But then to have the opportunity to go back and re-read. And then have the nerve to quote Gabe, intentionally taking him out of context? Well, sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

While God foreknows our everything action and choice, we are by and large not a 'project' of His. My destiny, whatever that may be, God undoubtedly knows. If I am to die tomorrow, then God knows this. But we can hardly say that this is a part of some plan of His. If so, then I myself wouldn't be too impressed with the Big Man on that score.

Gabe never said, we were a project of his. God has clearly woven His plan into everything good or bad that occurs. His will is soveriegn. Nothing on this earth will thwart God's plans.

derrick09 wrote:Hello, this question has to do with my specific God given purpose and destiny in this life. My question is, does God have a distinct plan (i.e. a destiny or many small specific plans for us i.e. the right or specific spouse, job, place to attend church) or does He let us make our own decisions in all areas and does not have a specific planned or selected best plan for each of our lives? Because when I first accepted Christ and was attending my family's church I was always told that God had a specific plan or plans for your life such as the right kind of job to get into. And to find that out what His will is you had to pray and believe that He would show you His will for your life. Now up until since getting into apologetics that's what I held to. But when I started looking into apologetics articles that deal with this area, I got a completely different answer. Here is an example of one of those articles, this one by one of my favorite apologists Greg Kokul http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5291 So from what you all have experienced and have studied, which view of God's guidance do you hold to. Currently I'm leaning towards what Kokul is saying for now. But if you all have anything to add or mention about this feel free to do so. Thanks and God bless.

Yes, God has a plan for each one us. He says so Himself in Jeremiah 29:11. Each of us is set in a specific time and place in history not by chance, but by Divine Providence. That said, the Lord also promises that He will bless our plans and give us our heart's desires if we take delight in Him (preferring His will over ours) (Psalm 37:4-5; Proverbs 16:1-2, 3-4), but He cannot do so if we do not plan at all. The Lord allows us to choose our destiny (Deuteronomy 30:15, 16, 17, 18, 19) and in our doing so He will guide us (Proverbs 16:9), and will work around our mistakes and shortcomings to accomplish His will (Romans 8:28).

Hope that helped.

Are you sure that the promises in Jeremiah 29:11 are for all believers and not just for the ancient Jewish people as the verse seems to show when it is taken into context with the rest of the chapter starting in 29:1 ? It's not really a good thing to cherry pick verses to support a particular agenda, this is what the word of faith people and others like them do. I think it's very important to take each verse in their proper context and go from there.

J, what have I "intentionally" taken out of context? Can you prove the "intentionally"? No you can't, so back off with the false accusations. I don't need to swerve anything to make my point. That's not my business.

Gabrielman wrote:God has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do, that you feel lead by the Holy Spirit to do, is part of that plan. However just because God has a plan on your life, does not mean that you will fulfill it entirely. You see we have a free will, and we are also imperfect beings. Given these two things, we can see that we will 1. Choose to sin and defy God due to our sin nature, and 2. Because of that, we fail God in some way and we fail to succeed in His plan for us. However this does not through things off, we are talking about an almighty God here, He already knows what will happen, and therefore has a plan to fix things. Now I am not going into a lot of detail about this, as my head hurts a lot right now, so let me know if I helped or if I should say more....

I'd rather Gab come back and discuss this with me rather than somebody who clearly feels emotional about something I have evidently not done.

But to clarify my thoughts. Gab is saying that God "has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do, that you feel led by the Holy Spirit to do, is part of that plan." Gab then goes on to speak of us may or may not fulfilling this plan on every minute piece of our lives. So God is basically a bad planner? We have a predetermining God who can't even predetermine correctly. I think the idea falls right there.

But, Gab, come on and correct me if I'm reading you wrong. And if I've taken you out of context, then be sure that I would only have done this unintentionally. People who like to mix things up ought to get themselves on the Jerry Springer show. Or something.