Evidence for God from Science

OK, this is a redo thread from the previous one since the first one got way way off track but anyway, the origional question...

This question has to do with salvation and assurance of salvation. To know that we are truly saved are we supposed to sense or feel the Holy Spirit within us? Also do we have to naturally or almost effortlessly produce the fruits of the spirit or good works, and if so does the amount that we produce matter? Because from my experience thus far, in a way at times I guess you can say I've felt the Holy Spirit in me and in a relative sense I produce good works or fruit of the spirit, I"m not perfect at it nor can I really say that I produce a lot of it or produce as much as I want, but because these areas seem to be gray for me currently how can I make them more black and white? God bless guys, thanks.

derrick, sorry about the last thread getting so far off topic. That was as much my fault as anyone else. I'll just try to answer your questions if I'm able.

To know that we are truly saved are we supposed to sense or feel the Holy Spirit within us?

I believe to know we are truly saved, we should just trust the Lord with what He has told us in His Word.John 3:15-16. You have a choice. Trust in God's promises, or trust in your own feelings. I know my own feelings change, God's promises don't.

Also do we have to naturally or almost effortlessly produce the fruits of the spirit or good works, and if so does the amount that we produce matter?

Once you have faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit will help produce the fruit of the Spirit. What I noticed about having a relationship with God, is that if I don't read the Bible and pray, things start to fall apart and I can get discouraged more easily. We need to grow in Christ, and by reading His Word, praying, and listening to Him, God will gradually transform us to become more like him and less like our own sinful nature. I guess I'm saying not to strive for producing good works by your own power. As you grow in Christ(by reading the Bible consistently, and praying), the works will come as a result.

I"m not perfect at it nor can I really say that I produce a lot of it or produce as much as I want, but because these areas seem to be gray for me currently how can I make them more black and white? God bless guys, thanks.

If you look at it as God producing the good works, you won't have to put such a burden on yourself. Remember Philippians 1:6. It is God who began the work in you. Have faith that he will complete the work he began in you. God doesn't lie. Trust Him. Keep reading his Word, and praying. You will grow.

RickD wrote:derrick, sorry about the last thread getting so far off topic. That was as much my fault as anyone else. I'll just try to answer your questions if I'm able.

To know that we are truly saved are we supposed to sense or feel the Holy Spirit within us?

I believe to know we are truly saved, we should just trust the Lord with what He has told us in His Word.John 3:15-16. You have a choice. Trust in God's promises, or trust in your own feelings. I know my own feelings change, God's promises don't.

Also do we have to naturally or almost effortlessly produce the fruits of the spirit or good works, and if so does the amount that we produce matter?

Once you have faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit will help produce the fruit of the Spirit. What I noticed about having a relationship with God, is that if I don't read the Bible and pray, things start to fall apart and I can get discouraged more easily. We need to grow in Christ, and by reading His Word, praying, and listening to Him, God will gradually transform us to become more like him and less like our own sinful nature. I guess I'm saying not to strive for producing good works by your own power. As you grow in Christ(by reading the Bible consistently, and praying), the works will come as a result.

I"m not perfect at it nor can I really say that I produce a lot of it or produce as much as I want, but because these areas seem to be gray for me currently how can I make them more black and white? God bless guys, thanks.

If you look at it as God producing the good works, you won't have to put such a burden on yourself. Remember Philippians 1:6. It is God who began the work in you. Have faith that he will complete the work he began in you. God doesn't lie. Trust Him. Keep reading his Word, and praying. You will grow.

Right on the mark
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These are great points, I think this is best as you can get as far as a solid and biblicaly accurate interpretation of salvation and salvation assurance. Thanks again, and God bless.

Romans 10:9,10.

Job done.

He is, of course, incapable of telling you how "good" you have to be to prove that you "truly believed".

Do I have to give away all my property to the poor like Jesus said? Leave my family to serve Him? No? How do you know?

Do I have to repent of all my sins? Every single sin I've ever committed? Or just some of them?

How many sins I commit after confessing Jesus as Lord would prove that I never "truly believed"? One, two, ten?

And questions go on and on.

The questions themselves you're asking are only as relevant as they are representative of what Christ and the NT means with regard to "sin." You're assuming that it means individual act of sin and that it is these that separate man from God. The fact is that there is a collective and more comprehensive meaning to "sin" that refers not to a score card approach but rather to that which separates us from God. It is this separation from God that Christ addressed through his incarnation, life, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension back to the Father. When this sin nature in us is addressed, it is addressed positionally once and for all and it's not about keeping score and worrying about whether a particular individual sin is addressed.

So Smiley, your comments include an assumption within them that doesn't accurately address what Christ and the NT in particular have to say in this regard. In logic this is what is known as a strawman argument where you attribute a position that those you are discoursing with would not put forth themselved. It's not necessarily an intentional thing and in any event only you could answer whether that was your intent. I assume that it wasn't.

Is it possible that you're making some assumptions here and not allowing Christ and the NT to speak for themselves in this regard?

blessings,

bart