Evidence for God from Science

Hi,

I'll try to keep this as brief and relevant as possible. This may sound self-indulgent, and for that I apologise. I usually try to give my honest opinion about things, but this is a bit difficult brecause i have a 'problem' that I can't for the life of me figure out.

I believe in Jesus Christ and his work on the cross, with all its significance. I believe in my heart and in my head; I have come to believe through thorough investigation of all the evidence. But I don't 'feel' like a true Christian. I sin, I lose those I love, I destroy relationships etc. When things are going well, I can rely on myself to go and steam-roller the whole thing. I try to lead the righteous life, I pray for guidance to lead the righteous life. I strive to be happy, kind, loving - myself - the whole time. I go to church, and feel lost. I pray, and feel separate from the Lord.

As I say, I really do not like to be so self-indulgent. I'm just looking for that 'peace' over my life. Am I being punished? How do you gain the peace of mind that should come with the knowledge we as Christians have?

I believe in my heart and in my head, but I feel that this is simply not enough. Believing is not enough. I should be righteous. I WANT to be righteous. I should be lovable and loving Danny the whole time, and not such a git as I am on occasions.

Thanks in advance, and I can't wait to hear what you have to say. I say believing isn't enough, not for me anyway. That to me seems like cheating.

God bless to you my brothers and sisters

I'm praying for you, brother, and I will write more later....class starts in 10 minutes.

I will say this quickly....I can completely empathize with you and your feelings. If anything makes me more inclined to go the route of Bart's type of church it's the feeling of not belonging.

The only solution I know of is to simply keep immersing oneself in prayer.

More later.

Zoe

Hi Danny,

You're not unusual. In fact, if people were honest what you're experiencing and feeling is more the norm for all who call themselves Christians.

It's hard to convey a lot of this by writing, so please bear with me and I apologize in advance for not being able to do your questions justice in this format.

I believe in Jesus Christ and his work on the cross, with all its significance. I believe in my heart and in my head; I have come to believe through thorough investigation of all the evidence. But I don't 'feel' like a true Christian. I sin, I lose those I love, I destroy relationships etc. When things are going well, I can rely on myself to go and steam-roller the whole thing. I try to lead the righteous life, I pray for guidance to lead the righteous life. I strive to be happy, kind, loving - myself - the whole time. I go to church, and feel lost. I pray, and feel separate from the Lord.

Danny, sadly most Christians feel this way at time, and many feel that their lives are like this and that they are unusual. A good part of the reason for this is that I think collectively we've lost a real sense of community. This is going to sound like I'm condemning Institutional Church. Some elements of it in general, I am, but I do believe that this is possible even in Institutional Church. So here goes. Institutional Church sadly, far too often is a place where people put up walls and masks and pretend in front of God and others that they've got things in their life all put together. They have no problems. They have no doubts. They have no family issues, marital problems, children in difficulty. In fact, many churches have whole lists of unwritten rules that are woven into the culture and woe to any who question them. Church is showing up for a service, standing in the congregation looking at the back of the head of the person in front of you and following the lead of those on the stage who are somehow, "super-Christians" who have everything all together. If you do have problems, you're encouraged to pray, trust God and if they're really severe make an appointment with the Pastor who has arrived and knows all the answers and if things are really severe then you'll be shipped off to a professional counselor and the church staff will pray for you.

That's not even remotely close to what the early church was and how the Bible teaches church can be. Church is first and foremost community. It is a living organism of which Christ is the head. Those who function as leaders come to those roles because of their gifting and maturity and they're already functioning in that manner. Early on, people gathered in home and in circles or around a table and shared a meal, sang and worshiped and different people within the congregation would share what God was doing in their lives, what they were learning and it wasn't dominated by a professional clergy. There were no professional clergy in the local church. There were a few special leaders who went out on missions and planted churches in new communities who received support (sometimes) from other local groups who sent them out.

The point is, there's a very strong community element to Christian life that sadly, much of western institutional church has lost. Some are recognizing this and focusing on home fellowships, cell groups and shepherding groups. In many cases all these are however is just form and the same dynamics of the main church are still there. The group is dominated by one leader. The focus is teaching by video tape of book studies. You're encouraged to share (maybe) but the rules present (spoken or unspoken) are that you don't completely drop the mask and be honest.

The reality I've found is that there just aren't very many churches that truly operate with a sense of community that values the individuals who are struggling and questioning. They're more concerned with maintaining buildings, staff, programs etc. and if someone doesn't fit into that mold of support then the message sent whether stated or unstated is "get out, we don't have time and resources for this." How's that for being honest? I can say that because I worked in churches for 20 years and sadly, I know that message all too well, having been on the sending as well as the receiving side of it.

As I say, I really do not like to be so self-indulgent. I'm just looking for that 'peace' over my life. Am I being punished? How do you gain the peace of mind that should come with the knowledge we as Christians have?

You're not being punished. God doesn't punish his children. Circumstances may lead to correction but that is far different from punishment. The truth is Danny, that God loves you personally, deeply and with fervor and intensity. He's crazy about you. He wants to be central in your life and He wants you warts and all. Look at the NT and in particular, look at the Gospels and what Jesus had to say about the Father. Look at the parable of the Prodigal Son (really better named the parable of the loving Father.) When you've accepted Christ as your savior, you are forgiven and God no longer is distant and separated from you, even when it feels to us like He is.

Gaining peace of mind, for me (and believe me, I've struggled with some difficult things in this area including clinical depression so I'm trying to speak from experience here) for me is a process I'm still in and will be in the rest of my life. It's meant getting out of an Institutional Church where (for me and my family) the whole toxic circle I describe above was deeply entrenched. It's meant looking to find those people that God can use to bring fellowship and growth in my life (surprisingly they've not been the traditional leaders that many expect them to be.) It's been letting go of expectations of others and myself and looking to God to meet my needs. It's been getting off of the performance cycle that operates on guilt and shame and finding places where I can drop the mask and feel safe and loved by God and others. The exciting part of that journey is that it can be in many unexpected places and with many unexpected people. I suppose it could even be where it feels like it should be in a traditional institutional church, but sadly while that's possible, it's just not really all that common.

I believe in my heart and in my head, but I feel that this is simply not enough. Believing is not enough. I should be righteous. I WANT to be righteous. I should be lovable and loving Danny the whole time, and not such a git as I am on occasions.

Drop the "shoulds" and the "oughts". They'll drive you crazy. Danny, you ARE righteous. God has given you everything you need in Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit that dwells within you. Stop and think about that for a moment. You have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling within you. God is infinite and not limited. You don't have a small part of God. You have all of God. God has equipped you already with everything you need and further, sin has been cared for and covered and you don't have to perform to please God. God loves you already. Trying to prove to God that you deserve it is pointless. Jesus already took care of that and you don't have to ever again worry that God is angry with you or looking upon you as anything other than His wholly loved child. Meditate on that. Let is sink in. Take hold of that and don't let anyone, whether it's a church, a parent, a pastor, an elder, an enemy, a friend, ANYONE tell you any different.

Danny, the greatest "secret" I've laid hold of in my life recently is that grace is what we walk in, NOW. It's not just the grace that saved us in the past when we accepted Christ, or the grace when we die or Christ returns and we enter into the glorification that God has prepared for us. It's a walk of Grace now. That's not license. That's not saying anything goes. It is saying we can get off the hamster wheel of performance and rest in what God says we already are and learn how to walk in that. We can begin to experience peace and being righteous by resting and letting God show us who He says, WE ALREADY ARE.

Sadly, again, many groups that go by the name of "church" find that it's much more effective for their purposed to keep people in guilt and shame. Guilt and shame are powerful motivators. It drives many people to give and to participate in programs and do what the pastor and organization says pleases God while also meeting the needs of the institution. It's all about religion, and systems and organizations etc. At the root however that has nothing to do with grace and nothing to do with what the body of Christ is to be.

Danny I don't know what all of this is going to mean for you. I'm glad however that you've taken the risk to drop the wall and expressed what so many other Christians (most really) experience too but are often afraid to share. Sadly a board like this is limited in many dimensions. What I found worked for me is to really meditate and allow the truths above I've tried to share and ask God for a few things that I don't have to worry about Him wanting to answer because I know He wants to do this. Ask God to give you peace and help you to see what He's already done for you and begin to first rest in that and then to begin walking in it. That's a lifelong prayer, but you'll be amazed how quickly God will want to answer that prayer for you. Next, ask God to bring other believers into your life whom you can begin to really experience deep fellowship with. Then, begin looking for those answers and you might just be surprised where they come from. I don't tell people to just ditch institutional church. There are loving brothers and sisters in Christ there. Just realize that there's not always a lot there who really "get it" and walk this way. Many who do, will not be the ones so immersed in busyness and programs etc. (maybe, but I've not found it to be generally true) but there may be some there who have formed informal (maybe formal but again not that I've seen so much) relationships and are discipling others with the gifts they have. Then again, you might find God will open your eyes and bring people to you in places and ways you've never seen before, when you were expecting things to have to follow an expected pattern.

This is far more than I intended to write and it may be more confusing than helpful. It's at the heart of a lot of what I'm learning and walking in, in my own life right now. I can suggest some literature that builds on this if you like, but even that is limited as we can get on the knowledge kick and imagine that that is what will change us. It helps, but in the end it's the relationship things with God and other believers and taking hold of who God says we already are, and then living as if they're true that make a huge difference.

blessings,

bart

And that is where the troughs come in. You must have often wondered why the Enemy (God) does not make more use of His power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree He chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the Irresistible and the Indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of His scheme forbids Him to use. Merely to over-ride a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo. For His ignoble idea is to eat the cake and have it; the creatures are to be one with Him, but yet themselves; merely to cancel them, or assimilate them, will not serve. He is prepared to do a little overriding at the beginning. He will set them off with communications of His presence which, though faint, seem great to them, with emotional sweetness, and easy conquest over temptation. But He never allows this state of affairs to last long. Sooner or later He withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all those supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand up on its own legs—to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish. It is during such trough periods, much more than during the peak periods, that it is growing into the sort of creature He wants it to be. Hence the prayers offered in the state of dryness are those which please Him best. We can drag our patients along by continual tempting, because we design them only for the table, and the more their will is interfered with the better. He cannot "tempt" to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger, than when a human, no longer desiring, but intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.

But of course the troughs afford opportunities to our side also. Next week I will give you some hints on how to exploit them,

Your affectionate uncle
SCREWTAPE

-Letter 8 from the Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis

A quick fire summery of The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis is: A collection letters from a demon (Screwtape) to his nephew (Wormwood) about how to lead a human away from God, so read this quote as if it were written by a demon.

Um... I apologize for any errors I make, I am rather new to posting on forums so if you'd like to walk me through some things, I'd appreciate any help or pointers.

For a time I would sit on my bed and wonder where God went in my life. When I became a Christian, I felt, well for lack of better words, spiritual. Eventually I guess this died out and I felt alone at times as if God had left me. I don't know how true this is for most people, but when I read this chapter/letter in The Screwtape Letters, I felt it completely represented me or at least for the current time. If you didn't read through the whole thing, I am trying to say that God takes a step back to teach us to walk on our own, doing the right things, much like a parent doesn't hold a child's hand forever.

I'm not sure if this addresses your feeling of gap between God when you pray, but know that he listens, even though you might not get the answer in the way you expect, or when you expect it.


As to the righteousness thing, we as humans will continually fall to sin. Jesus points out that lust is not in the action, but in the mind. It is unreasonable for us to be sinless, but so long as we try our best to avoid it and understand we are forgiven, then we are doing what is expected of us.

Forgiveness is like a child who spills juice on their white robes. The child stands before his father guilty, but the father hands him new robes and tells him "Do better next time" in a gentle voice.

Basically, try your best, if you fail, work to correct yourself and don't dwell on slip ups after you have passed them.

And if you like to read, I highly suggest The Screwtape Letters which can be found at your local library most likely, or you can read it online here: http://members.fortunecity.com/phantom1 ... etters.htm

Sorry if this didn't make sense. I'm still learning, so please bear with me

Thanks Zoe, thanks Bart.

******************************

Bart I typed a post to you when about three-quarters in my screen went on me. You can imagine the temptation for expletives. I'm having dramas with my computer so please bear with me and know that I am reading you even if I don't respond so fast.

Zoe, look forward to your views on this one.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Danny, sadly most Christians feel this way at time, and many feel that their lives are like this and that they are unusual. A good part of the reason for this is that I think collectively we've lost a real sense of community. This is going to sound like I'm condemning Institutional Church. Some elements of it in general, I am, but I do believe that this is possible even in Institutional Church. So here goes. Institutional Church sadly, far too often is a place where people put up walls and masks and pretend in front of God and others that they've got things in their life all put together. They have no problems. They have no doubts. They have no family issues, marital problems, children in difficulty. In fact, many churches have whole lists of unwritten rules that are woven into the culture and woe to any who question them. Church is showing up for a service, standing in the congregation looking at the back of the head of the person in front of you and following the lead of those on the stage who are somehow, "super-Christians" who have everything all together. If you do have problems, you're encouraged to pray, trust God and if they're really severe make an appointment with the Pastor who has arrived and knows all the answers and if things are really severe then you'll be shipped off to a professional counselor and the church staff will pray for you.

Bart, I was hoping you'd come in on this one, and thanks for your thoughtful and no-nonsense post. I agree with the above. Your experience of church, though, is far greater than mine, so I cannot empathise fully; though from my limited but all too real experience I can believe what you say. I stand at church, listening to the pastor drone on; waiting, along with the rest of the congregation, for my swashbuckling role to arrive where we get to mumble agreement at the end of every speech. I stand and watch a queue a hundred deep wait for their communion, which just reminds me of a supermarket check-out. I was at my latest (trial) church last Sunday and there was an ordination. There must have been twenty pators, deacons and an archdeacon. The pomp and ceremony was quite nice, and the church itself is spectacularly beautiful, but I could not help feeling a huge sense of unease with it all. The contrast between elders and congregation was striking.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Early on, people gathered in home and in circles or around a table and shared a meal, sang and worshiped and different people within the congregation would share what God was doing in their lives, what they were learning and it wasn't dominated by a professional clergy. There were no professional clergy in the local church. There were a few special leaders who went out on missions and planted churches in new communities who received support (sometimes) from other local groups who sent them out.

"Professional clergy" sums it up nicely. I recently signed on for an alpha course - of all things - run by a lady from the church. It was a joy to be with a relatively small but intimate number of brothers and sisters, discussing our faith and the world around us. How refreshing it was to just sit, knock ideas about together and have such an informal debate. We shared dinner, we talked politics, history, religion, atheism, and it was a joy. This only lasts for twelve weeks. All of the Christians at the course have told me they keep going back to it in order to gain this kind of intimate fellowship. Are we surprised?

Canuckster1127 wrote:The reality I've found is that there just aren't very many churches that truly operate with a sense of community that values the individuals who are struggling and questioning. They're more concerned with maintaining buildings, staff, programs etc. and if someone doesn't fit into that mold of support then the message sent whether stated or unstated is "get out, we don't have time and resources for this." How's that for being honest? I can say that because I worked in churches for 20 years and sadly, I know that message all too well, having been on the sending as well as the receiving side of it.

Bart, would you agree that many clergy really could not give a brass farthing for their members?

Canuckster1127 wrote:You're not being punished. God doesn't punish his children. Circumstances may lead to correction but that is far different from punishment. The truth is Danny, that God loves you personally, deeply and with fervor and intensity. He's crazy about you. He wants to be central in your life and He wants you warts and all. Look at the NT and in particular, look at the Gospels and what Jesus had to say about the Father. Look at the parable of the Prodigal Son (really better named the parable of the loving Father.) When you've accepted Christ as your savior, you are forgiven and God no longer is distant and separated from you, even when it feels to us like He is.

I've never heard this before. Never had this told to me. Maybe God really is nutty about me. Maybe if I really understood this and believed it then I would walk the righteous path a heck of a lot more than I do now. I will meditate on this.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Gaining peace of mind, for me (and believe me, I've struggled with some difficult things in this area including clinical depression so I'm trying to speak from experience here) for me is a process I'm still in and will be in the rest of my life. It's meant getting out of an Institutional Church where (for me and my family) the whole toxic circle I describe above was deeply entrenched. It's meant looking to find those people that God can use to bring fellowship and growth in my life (surprisingly they've not been the traditional leaders that many expect them to be.) It's been letting go of expectations of others and myself and looking to God to meet my needs. It's been getting off of the performance cycle that operates on guilt and shame and finding places where I can drop the mask and feel safe and loved by God and others. The exciting part of that journey is that it can be in many unexpected places and with many unexpected people. I suppose it could even be where it feels like it should be in a traditional institutional church, but sadly while that's possible, it's just not really all that common.

Wow, this is very similar to me finding an alpha course. Maybe peace of mind can be found in this kind of fellowship? I'd also like to point out that I had always been a pray-in-your-closet Christian. But I knew deep down that fellowship is required of the Christian. I had to get out there. Some aspects of the church building worship, though, goes against every fibre of my being.

The idea of Christian worship in a brother or a sister's house, like back in the day, just fills me with joy from the thought of what that must have been like. I bet they broke bread, talked to each other, debated fiercely, laughed with one another. Why can't we just take the record back to the tip top, so to speak, and have more and more house-worship? Preserve the churches for the magnificent structures that they undoubtedly are, and yes by all means have your pomp and ceremony in there if you wish, and if church members like all the ritualistic aspects then let them worship in this manner. But let's not pretend that this is how it was meant to be done.

Canuckster1127 wrote:God has given you everything you need in Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit that dwells within you. Stop and think about that for a moment. You have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling within you. God is infinite and not limited. You don't have a small part of God. You have all of God. God has equipped you already with everything you need and further, sin has been cared for and covered and you don't have to perform to please God. God loves you already. Trying to prove to God that you deserve it is pointless. Jesus already took care of that and you don't have to ever again worry that God is angry with you or looking upon you as anything other than His wholly loved child. Meditate on that. Let is sink in. Take hold of that and don't let anyone, whether it's a church, a parent, a pastor, an elder, an enemy, a friend, ANYONE tell you any different.

If I have the Holy Spirit within me then why do I continue to be a bad person? And I mean bad. Why do I sabotage everything that is good in my life? Why do I have this nasty side to me? Hey, I'm not expecting you to be able to answer this; my questions can perhaps be taken rhetorically. Nobody has ever spoken to me loike you have here. I appreciate it and will mwditate on all of this.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Danny, the greatest "secret" I've laid hold of in my life recently is that grace is what we walk in, NOW. It's not just the grace that saved us in the past when we accepted Christ, or the grace when we die or Christ returns and we enter into the glorification that God has prepared for us. It's a walk of Grace now. That's not license. That's not saying anything goes. It is saying we can get off the hamster wheel of performance and rest in what God says we already are and learn how to walk in that. We can begin to experience peace and being righteous by resting and letting God show us who He says, WE ALREADY ARE.

I say this walk of grace must hold with it the caveat of righteousness. I mean righteous behaviour. I know you are not advocating license. But I am looking for a balance. There has to be a balance. And I need to find this balance, I think, by really knowing God in my heart. I believe in Him with my heart, but I don't know Him in my heart.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Danny I don't know what all of this is going to mean for you. I'm glad however that you've taken the risk to drop the wall and expressed what so many other Christians (most really) experience too but are often afraid to share. Sadly a board like this is limited in many dimensions. What I found worked for me is to really meditate and allow the truths above I've tried to share and ask God for a few things that I don't have to worry about Him wanting to answer because I know He wants to do this. Ask God to give you peace and help you to see what He's already done for you and begin to first rest in that and then to begin walking in it. That's a lifelong prayer, but you'll be amazed how quickly God will want to answer that prayer for you. Next, ask God to bring other believers into your life whom you can begin to really experience deep fellowship with. Then, begin looking for those answers and you might just be surprised where they come from. I don't tell people to just ditch institutional church. There are loving brothers and sisters in Christ there. Just realize that there's not always a lot there who really "get it" and walk this way. Many who do, will not be the ones so immersed in busyness and programs etc. (maybe, but I've not found it to be generally true) but there may be some there who have formed informal (maybe formal but again not that I've seen so much) relationships and are discipling others with the gifts they have. Then again, you might find God will open your eyes and bring people to you in places and ways you've never seen before, when you were expecting things to have to follow an expected pattern.

Bart I am overwhelmed by your response. It has also given me much food for thought. It was a cracking read and I really 'felt' much of what you said.

****"Ask God to give you peace and help you to see what He's already done for you and begin to first rest in that and then to begin walking in it. That's a lifelong prayer, but you'll be amazed how quickly God will want to answer that prayer for you. Next, ask God to bring other believers into your life whom you can begin to really experience deep fellowship with."****

I will do this.

Canuckster1127 wrote:This is far more than I intended to write and it may be more confusing than helpful. It's at the heart of a lot of what I'm learning and walking in, in my own life right now. I can suggest some literature that builds on this if you like, but even that is limited as we can get on the knowledge kick and imagine that that is what will change us. It helps, but in the end it's the relationship things with God and other believers and taking hold of who God says we already are, and then living as if they're true that make a huge difference.

Bart you have expressed many of my feelings. Your post was a joy to read. I would love you to suggest this literature you speak of. But most of all thank you for your time and advice.

I didn't realise that this could be an issue for so many other brothers and sisters out there. If it is, and you're out there, then you must jump in on this one and share your thoughts about this. Thinking about it, this could be massive in terms of how many Christians have actually turned away from Christianity.

God bless

What's really cool about this is that our chapel today brought the entire "He's nutty about you" and it was very refreshing. We read about Luke 15, the story about the Lost coin, lost sheep, and prodigal son. So often we forget about the joy that can come with the realization and the relationship. I often find myself listening too much to the distracting thoughts and the worldly thoughts that keep me from focusing on the idea that God loves me and wants to spend time with me and is excited about that! Which is incredibly humbling and yet incredibly comforting at the same time. And unfortunately (as the section on the screwtape letters shows) it is a very effective tool for the devil.

Sometimes I imagine myself as being that lost sheep or that son and think of God running out to meet me.....that....is amazing. So Danny, remember that He is running out to meet you, He is always on the look out for you and is glad to talk and listen to you.

What's amazing for me is that I actually usually love hearing the sermon and singing songs in church, and in fact, if that's all I had to worry about, I would be great. But it's those moments of feeling lost within the "church" socially that keep me frustrated.

Ah, lunch duty

Hey Danny,

I'm glad you found my response helpful. I don't have everything figured out and I'm glad to answer the questions you raise.

First

Bart, would you agree that many clergy really could not give a brass farthing for their members?

You know, sometimes I get on a roll in writing and expressing some of the things I've felt and am dealing with in my own life and it's easy for me to paint things in too negative a light. No. I think most clergy are sincere in their desire to serve God and people. There are phonies but I think in general that they are an exception. When they're exposed however, they get a lot of attention and it's easy to assume there are more phonies than there are. The easy example is the scandal in the Roman Catholic Church. The number of known paedophiles is a very small percentage and in fact, to my knowlege, no higher there than in protestant denominations, but the issue there sadly is that the organization failed to respond to the situation and elevated their loyalty to their priests over their responsibility to protect children and their church members.

That said, there are things I know from having been in different forms of ministry, and having looked at studies that examine this. The actual number of clergy who remain in ministry past their first church (meaning they go onto another church) is roughly 50%. There are many reasons for this and I won't attempt to mention them all (assuming I even knew them all). Many are disillusioned with the reality of what ministry really is and becomes and how little of it actually deals with ministering to people and serving God. It takes a great deal to run an institutional church. Utilities have to be paid, land and building maintained, programs developed and run with paid staff or volunteers to put it together. It's inevitable that all these things are going to be a primary focus for a pastor because this too is where his livlihood and support for him and his family come from. It simply takes front and center and it's very easy over time to begin to measure where you put your time and effort by whether it supports the organization. Many realizing this, simply don't remain in ministry.

I've never heard this before. Never had this told to me. Maybe God really is nutty about me. Maybe if I really understood this and believed it then I would walk the righteous path a heck of a lot more than I do now. I will meditate on this.

Danny, it does make a difference, but I want to make a few clarifications. First, I don't want to give you the impression that realizing this truth and walking in it makes living a righteous Christian life easy. Not true at all. In fact, if I or anyone else tries to convince you that there's a magic answer that makes things easy then you'd be right to question.

What I'm suggesting is that there is a dynamic at work in a Christian walk that makes a difference in what we focus upon. The ironic thing is that if you focus upon knowing what sin is and begin putting together lists of "do's and don'ts" and calling upon self-discipline and human effort to stay out of those activities then you actually give sin more power in your life.

Romans 5 - 8 is in my opinion one of the most important and practical passages in the Bible and it deals with just this issue. Romans 5 starts with showing us the different things at work in the world and how we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and what he has done for us. It goes on to explain the law and how it reveals to us our inability to measure up to the standard and how it points us toward Jesus Christ.

We learn that grace is not a license to sin and that when the Holy Spirit is in us He will point us toward righteousness and bring forth fruit in our lives. Paul though completely recognizes that there is something is us that he calls "the flesh" which is a sin nature that is not eradicated when we are saved and will not be completely removed until we die or Jesus returns. There's a battle that goes on that Paul recognizes and he cries out in the culmination of it here:

Romans 7:21-25 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Follow Roman 8 in which Paul lays out the solution to this struggle.

I'd encourage you to read Romans 8 and just look at the flow of it and what it says.

Look how it starts. There is no condemnation. Guilt and shame are no longer a needed response to who we are and what we've been and done in the past. Jesus has covered it. Rest assured, if we continue to remind ourselves and remind God (as if he needed it) of how low, wretched and evil we've been in the past and are capable now in the flesh, God looks at us through Jesus Christ and He loves us without reservation.

Paul talks about living by the sinful nature or living by the Spirit who lives within us. If we walk by trying to keep lists and rules and focus upon sin in an effort to overcome it, the irony is that we actually ensure at that point that we're going to fail and sin is going to run rampant in our lives over us. If we set our eyes upon God and accept who He says we are and how He loves us, then we begin to walk by something that is decidedly not human nature but instead find ourselves wanting to please God, not because we have to, but because we love Him.

It culminates with this. All of Romans 5 - 7 is a set-up for the powerful truth of Romans 8. That's where the power is.

Romans 8 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now, I said that doesn't make it easy and it doesn't ensure that we'll never sin. It's not always easy. There's times when we're in a struggle and we fall, but the difference is when we do, we keep short accounts with God and we stand back up and we focus again on the God we love and who loves us and we keep walking. There are powerful tools available to us in this walk that many Christians don't use and that sadly the Institutional Church doesn't always promote. You want to know what one of the most powerful weapons we have against sin when we wrestle with it? Praying and telling God certainly, but also sharing with other brothers and sisters. When sin is brough out into the light and no longer kept secret it loses a great deal of its attractiveness and power. That's why there's so much power in developing relationship like in the alpha group you mention where masks are dropped and people are real with one another. Church isn't a spectator sport and sadly for so many that's what it's become. I'm not saying you can't find fellowship there. I'm just saying you have to know what you're looking for and find those relationships and build them. If you have a choice between attending worship services (not all bad) or a place where there is genuine community with believers acting in love and support, I'm telling you that the latter is what church is more about. The institutional church is upside down in this regard, in my opinion.

If I have the Holy Spirit within me then why do I continue to be a bad person? And I mean bad. Why do I sabotage everything that is good in my life? Why do I have this nasty side to me? Hey, I'm not expecting you to be able to answer this; my questions can perhaps be taken rhetorically. Nobody has ever spoken to me loike you have here. I appreciate it and will mwditate on all of this.

Romans 8 my friend, Romans 8. Start with baby steps. Spend time meditating on what God says about how He sees you in Jesus Christ. Dare to begin to walk as if that were true even when the old nature and memories cry our against it. Build Christian community and find likeminded believers who will be that support to you AND for whom you can be that support.

Bart you have expressed many of my feelings. Your post was a joy to read. I would love you to suggest this literature you speak of. But most of all thank you for your time and advice.

I'll suggest just one book that really helped me get a lot of this into my life.

I recommend He Loves Me, by Wayne Jacobsen. It's available on Amazon in the UK here.

I really think it will help to put things in perspective and it's both Biblically based and very practical.

I'm excited for you Danny. You have a wonderful journey ahead of you. I wish I'd known much of this and had it in place when I was active in formal ministry. It's worth more than a lot of what I preached and practiced then.

blessings

bart

Hi Danny,

Sorry for being late, but I believe that the Holy Spirit is convicting you of sin in your life. Is there sin in your life? If so, you will need to purge it out of you.... Sorry of the cheap response, but I too struggle in sin.

Gman, not to make light of your response or of sin, but frankly none of us are capable of purging sin out of ourselves. That's a God job and it's a continual life-long process. It's to role of the Holy Spirit to point out and convict us of sin. I think that something that is vital to know and understand in our walk. Ideally, when sin is pointed out in our lives by the Holy Spirit our response is to agree, confess it, agree with God that is under the blood and grace of Christ, make restitution or amends to others wronged where needful and possible, and then move forward purposing in God's strength to not fall in this area again.

Our focus in our walk is best placed on God, loving Him and wanting to please Him because He loves us. If we put the focus upon sin, we actually give it more power than it would otherwise have in our lives.

That's the way I see it anyway, and I'm in no way advocating license in this regard.

zoegirl wrote:What's really cool about this is that our chapel today brought the entire "He's nutty about you" and it was very refreshing. We read about Luke 15, the story about the Lost coin, lost sheep, and prodigal son. So often we forget about the joy that can come with the realization and the relationship. I often find myself listening too much to the distracting thoughts and the worldly thoughts that keep me from focusing on the idea that God loves me and wants to spend time with me and is excited about that! Which is incredibly humbling and yet incredibly comforting at the same time. And unfortunately (as the section on the screwtape letters shows) it is a very effective tool for the devil.

Sometimes I imagine myself as being that lost sheep or that son and think of God running out to meet me.....that....is amazing. So Danny, remember that He is running out to meet you, He is always on the look out for you and is glad to talk and listen to you.

What's amazing for me is that I actually usually love hearing the sermon and singing songs in church, and in fact, if that's all I had to worry about, I would be great. But it's those moments of feeling lost within the "church" socially that keep me frustrated.

Ah, lunch duty

It is hard sometimes to let go of your worldly thoughts and frustrations to just focus on Christ. Worldly distractions just take over sometimes.

I appreciate your words, Zoe, and I'm meditating on this idea of God "running out to meet me."

God bless

ninjapotato wrote:

And that is where the troughs come in. You must have often wondered why the Enemy (God) does not make more use of His power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree He chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the Irresistible and the Indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of His scheme forbids Him to use. Merely to over-ride a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo. For His ignoble idea is to eat the cake and have it; the creatures are to be one with Him, but yet themselves; merely to cancel them, or assimilate them, will not serve. He is prepared to do a little overriding at the beginning. He will set them off with communications of His presence which, though faint, seem great to them, with emotional sweetness, and easy conquest over temptation. But He never allows this state of affairs to last long. Sooner or later He withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all those supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand up on its own legs—to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish. It is during such trough periods, much more than during the peak periods, that it is growing into the sort of creature He wants it to be. Hence the prayers offered in the state of dryness are those which please Him best. We can drag our patients along by continual tempting, because we design them only for the table, and the more their will is interfered with the better. He cannot "tempt" to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger, than when a human, no longer desiring, but intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.

But of course the troughs afford opportunities to our side also. Next week I will give you some hints on how to exploit them,

Your affectionate uncle
SCREWTAPE

-Letter 8 from the Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis

A quick fire summery of The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis is: A collection letters from a demon (Screwtape) to his nephew (Wormwood) about how to lead a human away from God, so read this quote as if it were written by a demon.

Um... I apologize for any errors I make, I am rather new to posting on forums so if you'd like to walk me through some things, I'd appreciate any help or pointers.

For a time I would sit on my bed and wonder where God went in my life. When I became a Christian, I felt, well for lack of better words, spiritual. Eventually I guess this died out and I felt alone at times as if God had left me. I don't know how true this is for most people, but when I read this chapter/letter in The Screwtape Letters, I felt it completely represented me or at least for the current time. If you didn't read through the whole thing, I am trying to say that God takes a step back to teach us to walk on our own, doing the right things, much like a parent doesn't hold a child's hand forever.

I'm not sure if this addresses your feeling of gap between God when you pray, but know that he listens, even though you might not get the answer in the way you expect, or when you expect it.


As to the righteousness thing, we as humans will continually fall to sin. Jesus points out that lust is not in the action, but in the mind. It is unreasonable for us to be sinless, but so long as we try our best to avoid it and understand we are forgiven, then we are doing what is expected of us.

Forgiveness is like a child who spills juice on their white robes. The child stands before his father guilty, but the father hands him new robes and tells him "Do better next time" in a gentle voice.

Basically, try your best, if you fail, work to correct yourself and don't dwell on slip ups after you have passed them.

And if you like to read, I highly suggest The Screwtape Letters which can be found at your local library most likely, or you can read it online here: http://members.fortunecity.com/phantom1 ... etters.htm

Sorry if this didn't make sense. I'm still learning, so please bear with me

Thanks ninja.

I'm looking through your post now...

Thanks Gman, Bart.

I should make clear that I am in no way questioning salvation. I am saved by faith alone and I understand and accept this fully.

I also believe that the New Testament gives us a kind of moral manual for believers. We are given basic and important pointers for how to conduct ourselves. If I fail to live up to these standards, then in no way am I unsaved by this. I don't lose my salvation once received.

It's just walking the walk of good moral conduct that I struggle with.

***************************************

What does fellowship mean to you as Christians out there?

Gathering.
Talking about Jesus Christ.
Apocalypticism?
Sharing a meal.
Testimony?

Ideas?

Bart,

I just posted a lengthy repsonse to your second last post...and lost it. I'll try again later or tomorrow. Thanks again for your thoughts.

Danny

No problem Danny. That happens to me too. I've taken to either writing responses in a word processor and cutting and pasting them in. At the very least, I highlight my entire response and then copy it before hitting comment. That way if for some reason it doesn't post I can past it back in again without trying to rewrite it all. It's very frustrating to lose a post. It still happens to me.

Danny,
If more Christians were this transparent about where they are, we'd have a revival.

Sounds like an issue with holiness. Like the rest of us (who are honest), we examine ourselves and see how far we are from holiness. At least in terms of living. What is amazing, is the moment we truly believed we were made righteous. In other words, we have a heavenly status or position. That status is, "in Christ."
The good news is that there is something awake in you that sees the discrepency. That your thoughts, words and deeds are not in harmony with your new nature. Brother, I can relate. i would first thank God that He saved me. And i would thank God that He has given me the spiritual sight to see that my living is not in keeping with where He has made me to sit. And I would thank God that He is the one who can transform my living. Not through my efforts, but through faith. That is, the desire to see His will become manifest in my life.