Evidence for God from Science

This is a very interesting map of the evolution of Israel. As you can see between 1917 and 1923, Israel was already established as a nation by the League of Nations. So how was God then going to get his people back into the land? Easy.. God had to allow the holocaust to happen. A persecution from around the world. Thus a nation was born. Isn't that amazing?





//www.standwithus.com/flyers/pdfs/Evoluti ... stcard.pdf

I definitely feel like God's hand can be clearly seen in the happenings with Israel the past 100 years. From the remarkable way in which Israel became established as a nation to the way that Israel has demolished enemies that stand in their way in the wars they've fought, reading the headlines about Israel feels like I'm reading straight out of the New Testament at times. A small country surrounded by enemies that is extremely hated (or loved, by loved by few) for "seemingly" no real reason.

To me Israel is a reminder that God is still active in this world.

narnia4 wrote:I definitely feel like God's hand can be clearly seen in the happenings with Israel the past 100 years. From the remarkable way in which Israel became established as a nation to the way that Israel has demolished enemies that stand in their way in the wars they've fought, reading the headlines about Israel feels like I'm reading straight out of the New Testament at times. A small country surrounded by enemies that is extremely hated (or loved, by loved by few) for "seemingly" no real reason.

To me Israel is a reminder that God is still active in this world.

There is no question in my mind that the birth of Israel was a supernatural event as prophesied by the Hebrew prophets. Do you want proof of God? Study the miracle of Israel... It's God word to the Jews that he never breaks covenants. Imagine that, Jews removed from their homeland in 70AD only to come back to it almost two thousand years later. Come on folks.. What more proof do you need?

But if God has a new convenant with us through Jesus Christ - doesn't that proceed the one stated in the Old testament? And so Israel becoming a nation in the last Century has nothing really to do with God?

SIlvertusk?

Silvertusk wrote:But if God has a new convenant with us through Jesus Christ - doesn't that proceed the one stated in the Old testament? And so Israel becoming a nation in the last Century has nothing really to do with God?

SIlvertusk?

I agree. I, for one, am a staunch supporter of Israel and its right to exist. But not because I believe God had anything to do with it (a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy if you ask me). After Christ there is but one covenant and that is His blood. The old covenant was a mere foreshadowing of the new and everlasting covenant. The Jews that missed out on it are still missing out and will continue to miss out until they join the fold.

There is no question in my mind that the birth of Israel was a supernatural event as prophesied by the Hebrew prophets. Do you want proof of God? Study the miracle of Israel... It's God word to the Jews that he never breaks covenants. Imagine that, Jews removed from their homeland in 70AD only to come back to it almost two thousand years later. Come on folks.. What more proof do you need?

G,
It is most definately not a supernatural event. All the events were natural. At best this is a case where we might say this is a providential event.
It definately is very compelling, and of course for us who believe that Christ will return and restore His Kingdom through Israel, it appears to be a sign of the times.

God has a very real plan for Israel. Whether the events we see unfolding are God's providence, or as Byb says, men attempting to force the hand of God, we will have to wait and see. As of now, Israel (the nation) is in rejection of the Messiah. They are out of covenant, and will continue to be, until the times to come and the number of the gentiles is complete.

But if God has a new convenant with us through Jesus Christ - doesn't that proceed the one stated in the Old testament?

Actually no. The New Covenant was rejected by Israel. Ezekiel, Daniel and Jeremiah all prophesied about the new covenant. Israel was well aware that God had a plan to restore Israel and set up His Kingdom on earth through the Messiah.
Paul writes that He is the apostle to the Gentiles and that He has been given a gospel different from that promised to His disciples. In Ephesians Paul refers to it as the "mystery," in that it was concealed or hidden in times past. The mystery program was not the program John the Baptist preached or the Prophets before him.
Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus Eph 3:2-6

jlay wrote: It is most definately not a supernatural event. All the events were natural. At best this is a case where we might say this is a providential event.
It definately is very compelling, and of course for us who believe that Christ will return and restore His Kingdom through Israel, it appears to be a sign of the times.

God has a very real plan for Israel. Whether the events we see unfolding are God's providence, or as Byb says, men attempting to force the hand of God, we will have to wait and see. As of now, Israel (the nation) is in rejection of the Messiah. They are out of covenant, and will continue to be, until the times to come and the number of the gentiles is complete.

This doesn't make any sense.. In one line you claim it's not a supernatural event and the next that God does have a plan for Israel. Which is it? Also how is Israel the rejection of the messiah? When?

jlay wrote:Actually no. The New Covenant was rejected by Israel. Ezekiel, Daniel and Jeremiah all prophesied about the new covenant. Israel was well aware that God had a plan to restore Israel and set up His Kingdom on earth through the Messiah.

Not so.. Christ never was crowned King of Jews. He has deemed a heretic by only a small group of pharisees..

jlay wrote:Paul writes that He is the apostle to the Gentiles and that He has been given a gospel different from that promised to His disciples. In Ephesians Paul refers to it as the "mystery," in that it was concealed or hidden in times past. The mystery program was not the program John the Baptist preached or the Prophets before him.
Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus Eph 3:2-6

Well I disagree with that... God doesn't reject His people. Luke 1:32-33.. And God NEVER breaks His covenants.. Read Romans 11:25-28.

All Israel Will Be Saved

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Byblos wrote:I agree. I, for one, am a staunch supporter of Israel and its right to exist.

I think I see why now Byblos.. They were the only ones that bailed out the Lebanese Christians when Hezbollah came into power during the civil wars there. None of the other Christians came to help.. Many more Lebanese Christians would be tortured to death if it wasn't for Israel.

God uses natural events. Everything that we see happening in Israel is through natural methods. Men making policy, etc.
Is the providential hand of God in it? Possibly. I think these are things we ought to handle very carefully. Who knows how the enemy is working to deceive. Remember that Satan comes to set up his kingdom. And it will come in the guise of religion. A counterfiet of what God is doing. And, I am not saying this is the case. I am watching these events as well, wondering if this has some eschatological meaning.

Not so.. Christ never was crowned King of Jews. He has deemed a heretic by only a small group of pharisees..

Not sure what you are trying to say here? Correct, he was never crowned King. He was rejected by Israel. For proof, examine Israel today.

This doesn't make any sense.. In one line you claim it's not a supernatural event and the next that God does have a plan for Israel. Which is it? Also how is Israel the rejection of the messiah? When?

Can you rephrase the last question. It doesn't make any sense.
I didn't say Israel is the rejection. I said they are in rejection. A current state of rejection. They are in the state the bible says. They are blinded, dulled.
The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. is basically when the watch started ticking on this. Just as Jesus predicted. And so now we are in the church age. Paul is our apostle. (Rom 1:1-5) In fact Saul was the epitome of Israel's rejection of the Messiah. How strange that a pharisee would then become the apostle to the Gentiles. You got to love it.

From Hebrews 8
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Also read romans 11.
Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

Gman wrote:

Byblos wrote:I agree. I, for one, am a staunch supporter of Israel and its right to exist.

I think I see why now Byblos.. They were the only ones that bailed out the Lebanese Christians when Hezbollah came into power during the civil wars there. None of the other Christians came to help.. Many more Lebanese Christians would be tortured to death if it wasn't for Israel.

That is true, partially. My overall support for Israel is more for pragmatic reasons though. It does no good for Arabs and Palestinians in particular to deny Israel's right to exist. Israel is here to stay and there ain't nothin' anyone can do about it. The sooner Arabs realize that the sooner we'll have some semblance of peace in the region. Not that I will hold my breath. Arabs are notoriously stubborn and delusionally optimistic they can destroy Israel and usher back the glory days of the Caliphates (or at least wait around until Israel destroys itself). Jews established the state of Israel more as a safe haven for all Jews everywhere and to prevent another holocaust from ever happening again, rather than some fulfilled biblical prophecy, IMO.

In light of J's post above (which was posted as I was typing the above) I'd just like to add one thing: The church is the new Israel. Israel - the country - has nothing to do with the old covenant or the new.

In light of J's post above (which was posted as I was typing the above) I'd just like to add one thing: The church is the new Israel. Israel - the country - has nothing to do with the old covenant or the new.

I love to have a discussion on that. I am very aware of this postion, but I believe the scriptures reveal that to be not true. In fact, I would say that it is this position that leads to much of the religious confusion that we see today.

The church certainly is grafted in to the Kingdom program, but it is not the 'new Israel.' The bible clearly teaches that the gentile church is the mystery that was hidden in times past. Not revealed to the prophets, but now revealed because of Israel's (as a nation) rejection of the Kingly Messiah. The gentile church will last until its number is full, just as Paul teaches.
Romans 11:25 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Until, says that Israel has not been replaced with the church. More of a substitution program until some future time.

jlay wrote:

In light of J's post above (which was posted as I was typing the above) I'd just like to add one thing: The church is the new Israel. Israel - the country - has nothing to do with the old covenant or the new.

I love to have a discussion on that. I am very aware of this postion, but I believe the scriptures reveal that to be not true. In fact, I would say that it is this position that leads to much of the religious confusion that we see today.

The church certainly is grafted in to the Kingdom program, but it is not the 'new Israel.' The bible clearly teaches that the gentile church is the mystery that was hidden in times past. Not revealed to the prophets, but now revealed because of Israel's (as a nation) rejection of the Kingly Messiah. The gentile church will last until its number is full, just as Paul teaches.
Romans 11:25 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Until, says that Israel has not been replaced with the church. More of a substitution program until some future time.

I'm not too well versed on the subject to be honest. My take on it is simply that there is only one covenant now, not two. But please allow me a few days to read up on it. In the mean time, I'd love to read your opinion on the issue in a different thread so as not to derail this one.

I guess you could say, one covenant two gospels. There is only one gospel for the individual's salvation. However, there most certainly was a gospel for the nation of Israel.
This gospel was the one preached to the lost sheep of Israel. This is where we see John the baptist proclaiming the Messiah. The book of Matthew is all about Jesus teaching about what things will be like in the Kingdom age.
Matthew 9:35 says, "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues (the Jews' places of worship), and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."
Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel in Matthew 10:5-7, "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."
The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not preaching anything about the death, burial, and resurrection. As we know, this was rejected. The temple was destroyed as Jesus predicted.

The age we are in now is the church age. This is the gospel that Paul preaches. And in it, there is no difference between Jew and Greek, slave or free. This is a personal gospel and has to do with the individual's salvation In Christ. Paul's only aim was to, "to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace." Paul refers to this program as the 'mystery,' as it was hidden and only revealed after Israel's rejection.

The problem we see today is much confusion about which parts are for us, that is The church the body of Christ. There are many who try to apply what is for Israel to the body of Christ. And this is where we see so much error, disagreement and strife creep in. Even more, this is where we see religiousity creep in. Church traditions and religious programs that bind up a believer in religion and keep them from experiencing the gospel of grace. Thus Paul's instruction to Timothy. 2 Tim 2:15

This is approached as well in Galatians.
Gal 1:6-8
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Trying to get believers to live under Israel's plan is a perverted gospel.

Gal. 2:2-5 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Why would Paul explain to the Jewish beleivers the gospel that he was preaching among the gentiles?

7-9 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

jlay wrote:God uses natural events. Everything that we see happening in Israel is through natural methods. Men making policy, etc.
Is the providential hand of God in it? Possibly. I think these are things we ought to handle very carefully. Who knows how the enemy is working to deceive. Remember that Satan comes to set up his kingdom. And it will come in the guise of religion. A counterfiet of what God is doing. And, I am not saying this is the case. I am watching these events as well, wondering if this has some eschatological meaning.

So you are saying that the nation of Israel is satanic?

jlay wrote:Not sure what you are trying to say here? Correct, he was never crowned King. He was rejected by Israel. For proof, examine Israel today.

Israel as a nation never rejected Christ as their savior. Only the pharisees rejected him. Where are you getting this information that Israel as a whole rejected him or his message of grace?

jlay wrote:Can you rephrase the last question. It doesn't make any sense.
I didn't say Israel is the rejection. I said they are in rejection. A current state of rejection. They are in the state the bible says. They are blinded, dulled.
The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. is basically when the watch started ticking on this. Just as Jesus predicted. And so now we are in the church age. Paul is our apostle. (Rom 1:1-5) In fact Saul was the epitome of Israel's rejection of the Messiah. How strange that a pharisee would then become the apostle to the Gentiles. You got to love it.

You said before that God has a plan for Israel, but that the re-birth Israel is not a supernatural event. So how can you have a plan for something that doesn't even exist?

jlay wrote:From Hebrews 8
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Yes covenants but not people... Re-read Romans 11:25-28.

jlay wrote:Also read romans 11.
Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

Right.. Israel is experiencing a hardening, but not a turning away.. UNTIL the Gentiles has come in. Something that hasn't happened yet.

jlay wrote:.The problem we see today is much confusion about which parts are for us, that is The church the body of Christ. There are many who try to apply what is for Israel to the body of Christ. And this is where we see so much error, disagreement and strife creep in. Even more, this is where we see religiousity creep in. Church traditions and religious programs that bind up a believer in religion and keep them from experiencing the gospel of grace. Thus Paul's instruction to Timothy. 2 Tim 2:15

This is approached as well in Galatians.
Gal 1:6-8
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Trying to get believers to live under Israel's plan is a perverted gospel.

Well you are mistaken.. Because the message of the Bible is the same in both new AND old testaments, that being that we are saved through grace and not by our works alone.. So how was Abraham saved? Works? No.. Read Romans 4:1-3

jlay wrote:Gal. 2:2-5 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Why would Paul explain to the Jewish beleivers the gospel that he was preaching among the gentiles?

So what you are saying is that God's message of the old testament is different from the new testament? Not true.. In fact we see in Romans 11 that God does NOT reject his people.. There is always a remnant of Jews chosen by grace. Sure people are going to pervert the Gospel but the message of God always stays the same.

Read Romans 11:1-10
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

jlay wrote:7-9 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

Yes... But that is using the law to justify your works.. Notice that grace may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring, including those who are of the law. Read Romans 4:9-25

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

As noted...

"The Jews, at present cast off because of unbelief, will in due time as a people be taken into God’s favor again, when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and when the Deliverer (Christ) shall have appeared again. As a people they are for this age judicially blinded, although there is a remnant according to faith in Christ. The Gentiles grafted into the Church must not trample upon the Jews as a reprobate people, but remember that the law of faith excludes all boasting, either of ourselves or against others." -Biblia.com