Evidence for God from Science

Hello everyone, something else that has got my mind's attention as far as in my overall perception of Christian apologetics currently is the current trend or push by many amateur apologists and people like me, who study apologetic to lean towards a view what I call Christian naturalism. Which is pretty much a world view that accepts almost everything secular science and atheism would claim as fact, but with just enough room to still allow a belief in the God of the Bible to continue. Now the reason why I'm getting this impression is because I've been seeing and still continue to see among many Christian intellectuals online are more and more starting to embrace views like theistic evolution, the idea of soul sleep (i.e. ahinnilation immediately after death, and during the resurrection everyone gets remade and then ushered into either heaven or hell), and the idea of accepting secular naturalistic theories to miraculous events in the Bible (like the most recent article that talks about God using only natural forces and timing to bring about the Exodus Red Sea crossing i.e. a coincidence) What worries me is this could be a major indication that traditional or mainstream apologetics have failed to win debates, convert skeptics and give answers with enough substance and evidence to put Christianity over atheism as the most reasonable view of reality. And because many believers do not want to become atheists or agnostics, they give in and just agree with whatever atheists and secular scientists say and then find ways to work God around those areas. Now I could be wrong about this, there could be some sophisticated arguments and ways to marry the two world views together, but for me, and I assume for a lot of Christians, it doesn't have the look and feel of traditional apologetics or of traditional or mainstream Christianity. And it very easily compels many thinking people to ask themselves the following "since it looks for easier to give up God than to marry Him with naturalism why not just give Him up?" Like for example, I believe in what I like to call the apologetic pillars of old earth creationism, substance dualism, and in God using supernatural power for a lot of, if not, in most of the miraculous occurrences in the Bible. For the most part, this is the kind of Christian apologetics and the kind of Christianity I and most other Christians feel comfortable with. (as a side note, I chose not to mention young earth creationism since to me and most Christian apologists, it's a dead horse which has been thoroughly defeated by mainstream science and is rejected by most top Christian apologists). But anyway, now to these subgroups and to the overall people who hold to a form of Christian naturalism, I have several questions. First to theistic evolutionists...

1. Do you accept theistic evolution because even though you haven't studied all the assorted views of creation (i.e. old earth creation and intelligent design) or the various evidences and arguments against evolution and just accept evolution because "most scientists accept it" or do have you studied extensively on the topic and found darwinian evolution to trump oec and ID?

2. If so, what are the main arguments and evidences that you think defeat oec and ID?

3. How do you reconcile the Genesis creation account with evolution?

4. Do you think that ancient Hebrew or the Genesis account is so ambiguous that we can't know for certain what the Bible is saying thus we can assume God could have created in any sort of way even using darwinian evolution?

5. Or do you see a Biblically sound way (that's also supported by top Biblical scholars and theologians) that darwinian evolution and the Genesis account can fit?

For people who hold to the soul sleep doctrine...

1. What are the main verses in the Bible that you think shows this doctrine to be true?

2. Do they still appear to be saying that when they are taken into context to other verses surrounding them?

3. When God recreates us during the resurrection does He create us from nothing or does He use the microscopic particles of what is left of us in the grave or wherever? (also what about people who have been cremated or died in fires or in rare cases, have been vaporized?)


For people who believe in naturalistic causes of miracles

1. Are there ANY instances where you DO need super naturalistic power to get these miraculous situations to occur?

And finally questions I have overall about this...

1. Does this (the trend towards essentially combing naturalism and Christianity) indeed show that the traditional and most popular apologetics arguments for God's existence and for Christian Theism have failed so badly that in order to keep from having to admit defeat and join the atheist camp, we have to give into their arguments and evidences and then try to work God into their world view frame work as a last ditch effort to hold onto a reasonable belief in God? If not, why?

2. Do you see ideas like theistic evolution, soul sleep, naturalistic explanations to miracles, and the whole enterprise of Christian naturalism becoming the new norm for Christian apologetics and Christian philosophy among thinking Christians?

3. Does this also show that God cannot be proven or disproved nor can He be shown to most likely exist or not exist?

4. Or like me, do you feel like the traditional arguments for God and for Christian theism along with beliefs like Old earth creationism (and or Intelligent Design), substance dualism, and the belief that God uses supernatural powers still hold a lot of substance and are still very powerful and convincing pillars and HAVE NOT been defeated by mainstream secular science and atheism?

Anyway, I look forward to your thoughts, comments and questions. Thank you for your time and God bless.

P.S.

I may have talked about a few of these things in the past (I.E. my concern about theistic evolution or about soul sleep) but this is the best way I can currently describe my concern of what I'm seeing happen with these ideas and people's attraction to them.

derrick09 wrote:For people who believe in naturalistic causes of miracles

1. Are there ANY instances where you DO need super naturalistic power to get these miraculous situations to occur?

And finally questions I have overall about this...

1. Does this (the trend towards essentially combing naturalism and Christianity) indeed show that the traditional and most popular apologetics arguments for God's existence and for Christian Theism have failed so badly that in order to keep from having to admit defeat and join the atheist camp, we have to give into their arguments and evidences and then try to work God into their world view frame work as a last ditch effort to hold onto a reasonable belief in God? If not, why?

2. Do you see ideas like theistic evolution, soul sleep, naturalistic explanations to miracles, and the whole enterprise of Christian naturalism becoming the new norm for Christian apologetics and Christian philosophy among thinking Christians?

3. Does this also show that God cannot be proven or disproved nor can He be shown to most likely exist or not exist?

4. Or like me, do you feel like the traditional arguments for God and for Christian theism along with beliefs like Old earth creationism (and or Intelligent Design), substance dualism, and the belief that God uses supernatural powers still hold a lot of substance and are still very powerful and convincing pillars and HAVE NOT been defeated by mainstream secular science and atheism?

1a.) I like to think that God utilizes both elements (timing and miracles) as He sees fit. Timing for events such as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or the first 9 plagues of Egypt, and miracles for gifts like Samson's superhuman strength or events like the Resurrection of Jesus, in which the miraculous would be required. I'm unsure as how to classify the Flood or the sun standing still, though.

1b.) No, I do'nt think so. Where athiests often see disproof, I see proof. It's this little thing called Divine Providence, and timing is everything. Although if you really want to test God, tithe (Malachi 3:10)

2.) No. Largely because I believe that theistic evolution to be an example of your previous question, and soul sleep has too much of a New Age air about it and does not fit with either Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man or B.W.'s post-death experience. As for Christian naturalism, nothing really wrong with it from what I can tell, as it is God who controls nature (Mark 4:39).

3.) Jeremiah 29:13; Romans 1:20; Hebrews 11:3

4.) Yes, thanks largely to Josh McDowell's The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict and to this website.

Hope this helped.

Thanks Sam, anyone else?