Evidence for God from Science

Over the years, my experience in local church fellowships, shows quite a falling away or disbelief in the power of prayer, especially for the salvation of the lost. I recall various prayer services held in our local church throughout the week where people would just come to collectively pray for the unsaved. We don't have these anymore as attendance got so poor. What we have now is called a 'prayer summit' where once a year we take a week and do some collective praying. And often what I hear is prayers for ourselves. I confess this has adversely affected me also and my prayer life is not what it once was either.

I ran across this article when exploring this topic and I thought I would put it here and see if anyone else had any thoughts about the power and need of prayer. I especially would think this would be a major area of concern for those with a traditional view of hell as I was raised and taught under.

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By Pastor Joseph Chambers -

The spiritual business that is the closest to the heart of God is that business of weeping and travailing for lost souls. Just as a mother cannot give birth to her child until the pains of travail are upon her, neither will the saints win the lost until there is much weeping. The Holy Spirit spoke to my heart some months ago. He said, “I cannot answer prayer in your altar until I first answer prayer in your prayer closet.” I hear much despair in the church because most converts are shallow and have little change of lifestyle. It is apparent to me that the level of change in our converts is the direct results of the level of prayer by the leaders and soul winners themselves.

Infallible truth says, “They that sow in tears shall reap in joy; He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him” (Psalm 126:5-6). There is no such thing as compassion for a lost soul that does not cause great sorrow in the heart. It is painful to bear a lost person on your heart and to stand between them and the fires of hell. Almost no one preaches about a literal Hell, where the lost will be tormented for eternity. Neither do we weep over those on the way to that horrible place. God has ordained that every born again saint never forget from what he was saved.

Apostle Jude said, “And some have compassion making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garments spotted by the flesh” (Jude 1:22-24). When we see souls on their way to hell and want to “make a difference,” then we will “fear” for them and for ourselves if we have no compassion on their souls to pull them out of the fire. It is an awesome reality that the business of soul winning is on our shoulders. This is the reality that drove those like Hudson Taylor to inland China, where the millions were perishing. Unless we come to understand that we are responsible for the unsaved before our God, nothing will change.

Untold millions will spend eternity in hell because nobody will weep for their souls. The whole business of the Holy Spirit in conviction of sin awaits the travail and great compassion of God’s saints, “We are labourers together with God, ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building” (I Corinthians 3:9). There is no backup plan for the harvest of souls, but “ye are God’s husbandry” (the keepers of His vineyard of souls). The prophet of God, Ezekiel, warned us of our responsibility to the wicked, “When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul” (Ezekiel 33:8-9).

“Pulling them out of the fire” has got to be one of the greatest statements ever voiced by the Holy Ghost to Christ’s church. Any approach to “travailing of prayer” that does not grasp this promise-filled statement will fail to win. We, the Spirit-filled saints of Almighty God, have been promised and warned that we are the gate watchers of hell. We can pull souls back from the precipice of fire and at least give them one last choice. No, we cannot decide for them, but we can guarantee that they will hear the call and invitation from the mighty Spirit of the “Lover of souls” that “waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth” (James 5:7). He patiently waits, but we must be the harvesters of the fruit.

Nothing describes my Heavenly Father and His Son better than these words, “Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain” (James 5:7b). In one verse of Scripture we are called the husbandry. In this verse He is called the Husbandman. Souls are His business and our business. “We will reap if we faint not” (Galatians 6:9) and bear the pain of travail and great weeping. That’s our fellowship of His suffering.

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How about where you fellowship ? Are they as fervent in praying for the lost more or less than past years ? Yourself ?

I need some encouragement and any testimonies on how you see God working, or has worked, in the hearts of your unsaved friends through the power of prayer.

Hmmmm . Not even one response.

I'll just point out one comment from this article -

There is no such thing as compassion for a lost soul that does not cause great sorrow in the heart. It is painful to bear a lost person on your heart and to stand between them and the fires of hell. Almost no one preaches about a literal Hell, where the lost will be tormented for eternity. Neither do we weep over those on the way to that horrible place.

What about this idea of compassion and weeping for the lost ? Years ago, in my experience, this was quite common. We used to sing this little song -

Lord lay some soul upon my heart
And love that soul through me
And may I faithfuly do my part
To win that soul for thee

Don't hear much anymore regarding being burdened for a soul(s). Is this because our Christianity has become so self focused ? And/or perhaps we don't believe prayer does bring down strongholds in people's thinking so instead we have replaced prayer with an attempt to convince through logical arguments.

Does anyone else see a drift away from believing in the power of prayer ? Anyone ?

Untold millions will spend eternity in hell because nobody will weep for their souls.

Oh, that we would be burdened for others the way our Lord was burdened for us.
I'm not for praying for the lost, per se. As God will not overthrow the will of a person. Pray what our Lord prayed. That the Lord of the harvest will send forth laborers. And if we need to know who those laborers are, then all we need to do is go look in the mirror. So, pray that believers will be burdened with reaching the lost for Christ.

Sudsy,

Sorry for not responding earlier. I'm buried in other threads and things in my life and wasn't trying to ignore you.

You might find this link interesting to a recent blog by Frank Viola that addresses some of these issues from a different direction but there's a lot of common ground in term of topic.

http://frankviola.wordpress.com/2010/10 ... vangelism/

I'll try and pick up more if you want but I thought I'd toss that anyway as a start.

blessings,

bart

jlay wrote:

Untold millions will spend eternity in hell because nobody will weep for their souls.

Oh, that we would be burdened for others the way our Lord was burdened for us.
I'm not for praying for the lost, per se. As God will not overthrow the will of a person. Pray what our Lord prayed. That the Lord of the harvest will send forth laborers. And if we need to know who those laborers are, then all we need to do is go look in the mirror. So, pray that believers will be burdened with reaching the lost for Christ.

jlay, I think you hit the nail on the head with what to pray. That prayer as requested by Jesus - was it only for His disciples at that time or for the church today ? I think it includes us. Do you hear this prayed as such in your church ? I don't.

And what about this - is this talking about all labouring toward obtaining a harvest (some sow, some water, some reap) or does this mean the harvest is ripe and ready for picking and we all are to believe this and pray that God will work through us to bring in this harvest ? John 4:35

Canuckster1127, I briefly scanned that article and will give some thoughts on the various points he made.

Thanks, guys. This is an important subject for me. I have been raised in quite a 'go get em' evangelistic background and so I need to consider various views on this subject.

Certainly there are a lot of bad things taught on evangelism. Not to mention a lot of misunderstanding about just what is evangelism. I agree with Viola there. That is where the agreement ends.
So many fallacies I don't no where to start.

Close to the heart of Christ was others, and reaching them with the Words of life. That was His business here on earth. It is simply impossible to follow the life of Paul and the Apostles and not be struck with their selfless desire to make Chirst known. Paul said to be an immitator of him as he was of Christ.
Do preachers abuse this sincere burden? You bet. And sadly Viola takes a man like Moody, and then lumps him in the same line of thought with some wacky preacher making claims of his church being turned into a furniture store.

Viola simply makes wrong assumptions, and tries to make them fit his view.

When a believer is In Christ the natural by-product is evangelism. Christ was about seeking and saving that which is lost. And if we are IN CHRIST what other alternative is there? Viola is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The fact that some very poorly handle this calling is not a reason to make a claim that the bible is silent about evangelism. It is most certainly not. The book of Jude just for starters.

Suds,
I hear this prayer often in the streams I flow in. I doubt you will hear it much in the mainstream congregational church. And often when you do, it will be some distorted thing like Viola mentions. I've seen both extremes.
I serve in a ministry where we weap over the lost. We labor to reach the lost with the gospel. Our focus is children. We do get great support from many. But we are always more surprised by the lack, and how much apathy there is to simply proclaiming Him. I assure you we are not competing for space with any local church. I've seen new buildings and gobs of money spent so the sheep can have a nice new pen. But go ask a local congregation about their plan to share the gospel with those in their community. Blank stares. It is sad that Viola reduces evangelism down to notches on a belt. Because it is that way for some, does in no way mean that all evanglesim is misguided.

Always remember that evangelism is the by-product of being IN CHRIST. Just as all the spiritual blessings are.

Responding to Canuckster1127 linked article -

There is nowhere in the NT epistles to the churches where one word is said to them about the need to evangelize.
There’s also not one word of command to evangelize. The silence is deafening, and it cannot be dismissed.

Hmmm, my same argument about eternal torment - no where in the epistles. However, there is a suggestion in Romans 10:14-15 that is how they will hear.

The so-called “Great Commission” was an apostolic commission that Jesus gave to the 12 apostles – the men whom He lived with for 3.5 years, trained, and then sent out to the apostolic work. It is a huge assumption, therefore, to put that on all of God’s people. (Paul made clear in 1 Corinthians 12 that not all are called to be apostles.)

Hmmm, I thought Paul was considered an apostle. Jesus lived with Paul for 3.5 years ? I don't think so.

Furthermore, that commission is often wrongly translated “go into all the world . . . ,“ etc. In the Greek, the phrase is actually “having gone on your way . . .” It was a prediction rather than a command. Jesus knew that they would be going at some point. And they did.

So, all our translations are wrong except perhaps for Young's Literal Translation ? Whew, lots of wrong sermons on this as a command then, right ?

Sharing Jesus Christ with others is not a duty, a religious obligation, nor something that Christians should feel guilty or condemned about if they fail to do it with instant results. You can’t find any of this in the New Testament. It’s a post-apostolic idea. Sharing Christ was and is a spontaneous thing that issues forth from one’s life in Christ and his or her love for others.

I agree. When I feel guilt on this, I question where my heart is at. Why don't I show my love for others in this way ? I should not just remain guilty or shrug off this guilt or attempt to evangelize to rid of my guilt but rather pursue knowing God in such a way that I can't help but wanting to share my faith with others.

Christians who love the Lord Jesus Christ cannot but share their Lord with others, when the season is right and when a door has opened by the Spirit

Unless their fears prevent them. It depends on how much they truly love God and how willing and open they are to being lead of the Spirit. The early church prayed for boldness. Most of us don't even have our lives threatened but yet many of us sure need boldness.

But if you preach the glories of the Lord Jesus Christ to where God’s people are intoxicated with Him, you’ll have a group of fire-brands that will naturally share their Lord as opportunities arise. As I have often said, pursue Jesus Christ with others, get to know Him deeply, and evangelism and the like will take of itself. When this happens, God’s people won’t be found trying to sell something to others that they themselves haven’t been utterly sold on.

Amen !!!!! So, this must be what is missing in many of our churches, right ?

In the first-century, the greatest evangelist was the ekklesia of God, a close-knit community of believers that loved Jesus, showed Him forth by their life together, took care of one another, and served others. Whenever she – the ekklesia – is functioning according to her spiritual nature, she trumps every other evangelism program known to man. That’s still the case today when she’s reflecting her Bridegroom as God called her to. I hope that those who love evangelism, but think that the way a church expresses itself isn’t important will give this point serious consideration.

Agreed if 'serving others' includes a proclamation of the Gospel.

During seasons of revival, the salvation of souls happens quite effortlessly. In a revival, scores of people are open to hear about Jesus Christ and are ripe to receive Him. For instance, a massive amount of disciples were made from 1968 to 1977 in the USA. You could say the name of “Jesus” and people would be open to believe on Him. We aren’t in a time of revival right now. This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t share Christ if we feel the Spirit compelling us to do so, but it does mean that far fewer people will come to the Lord right now than in a time of revival. So don’t get befuddled when few people come to the Lord right now.

Disagree. Perhaps not in some locations but in other locations a big harvest is happening. Let God add t othe church daily the number that will be saved, we just need to be faithful andleave the results to God.

Sharing Jesus Christ with others can be done in many ways other than giving them “the plan of salvation” verbally. A believer’s life that is lived by Christ embodies the gospel. Paul and Peter make this clear throughout their letters. A life lived for Christ will often provoke open-hearted questions from others. It will be reflected in acts of mercy, love, care, giving, and kindness. Equally so, someone who shows the love of Christ to their coworkers (for instance) will often be sought out when a coworker is going through a trial. Their heart will be opened to hear about the living Christ, and what makes you so different. Such cases are often the best opportunities to share the Lord with others.

Agree but if the life lived is not provoking questions for the plan of salvation to be shared as sometimes Christians are perceived as just being good people, then at some point the plan of salvation is necessary. I think too many are believing in a 'silent witness' concept and never get around to giving a reason for the hope within.

There will be seasons where a local assembly will be called to serve their city, to serve the lost and to show Christ to them. However, it will only be effective if it is done “in season” and the Lord Himself is leading it. If not, the people will burn out, and there will be little fruit that will come from it.

Not sure about this 'in season' idea. I agree we need the Lord's leading but we should not be to hasty to determine results for anything done unto the Lord and on the behalf of others.

Many Christian leaders today will argue fiercely that not all Christians are called to teach or to be pastors, yet they will fiercely teach that all Christians are called to be evangelists. The New Testament is clear that not all are called to be evangelists

Agree. Some have a specific calling. However, as previously stated, all will share their faith if they are really in love with Christ and believe they have 'good news' to share.

There’s an immense need to learn to read Scripture with fresh eyes instead of reading it through a 100-year old lens.

Agreed. Like concepts on eternal torment. Whoops, couldn't resist that.

I better get back and read the rest of this artcle.

jlay -

I've seen new buildings and gobs of money spent so the sheep can have a nice new pen. But go ask a local congregation about their plan to share the gospel with those in their community. Blank stares.

Yep, thats what I'm going through. A church that is adding to it's luxuries and expecting the pastor to provide attractions to bring people to church. Meanwhile, the saints are grumbling amongst themselves that things still up to their liking. What a shame !

Anyway, I have just been given the opportunity to get our church involved in the Salvation Army Christmas kettle drive to support the community. I gained the support of our 3 pastors, now to get the saints outside the church walls. Big challenge. This only requires 2 hour shifts standing at a kettle and yet that itself will be a major challenge for many. I'm hoping to get very surprised and see many of them giving up a bit of time to get out where Jesus would be. They are not required to share their faith in words just participate in collecting the funds and yet many will not even give up time for that. O well, many are locked into churchianity and religiousity and have no sensitivites toward the lost. How can we say we have a relationship with Christ and not be caring for others. Don't these go hand in hand.

Great to hear about your ministry with children. That is such an important time of life to get them on the right track. I still recall much about this ministry back many years ago when I was young. I departed for a while but as scripture says, 'and when he is old he will not depart from it'. That was true with me.

Thanks Canuckster1127 for that link to Frank Viola's article. I hadn't read any of his stuff and now have looked up his site and other articles he wrote. Very interesting. I have a similar concern about the straying into what I call churchianity where Christ is not the main subject.

It is not hard to know where our minds and hearts are focused as it comes out in our conversations. Out of the heart the mouth speaks. The early church had their hearts filled with the marvels of Christ and just couldn't shut up. I don't know about your experience but I have to hunt for people to actually talk about Christ nowadays. When I ask myself when was the last time I shared something with someone else (saved or unsaved) regarding Jesus Christ, it makes me realize the quality of my relationship with Him.

Anyway, bettter stick to the subject matter of this thread but then again, it is related because if we do not have a close relationship with Jesus we will also not have His concern for the lost.

Well, I will take some time out to see what all Frank Viola is trying to convey.

Sharing Christ was and is a spontaneous thing that issues forth from one’s life in Christ and his or her love for others.

Not sure I can agree with this. At least not in the whole context of what Viola is saying. I will agree that evangelism is a natural result of being wrapped up in the heart beat of God. Are you? How many believers do you know who are so in tune, that they just spontaneously evangelize. The reality is that we drag these flesh suits around, and we spend a lot of time and frustration battling. Would you say that obeying Christ is a spntaneous thing?? We all know that obedience is a choice. A choice that is often at conflict with what our flesh desires. Why would sharing Christ simply be spontaneous? Sharing Christ is a choice. A choice that many times (if not most) will be met with resistance from the flesh. Just as will many things that we struggle with in this world. Should a Christian feel guilt when they grieve the spirit, sin, or fail to do what they know is right?

What I see Viola doing is a very common trend, and that is the anti-evangelical approach. That, the guilt you feel, and any preaching pointing to the lack in the body of Christ, is simply to be dismissed.

Did not Bart just make a post that all Christians feel distant from God at times. I don't disagree. But if we feel distant from God, who moved? Our walk with the Lord is not spontaneous, nor is it taught as such. The only spontaniety is when we are "In Christ," as I have mentioned before. Evangelism is the direct result of His heart beat.

Now I am not saying to harp on evangelism, or set goals for decisions and all that mess. There are plenty of bad axamples. But often times what we see is this reactionary procees that goes to the polar extreme. The answer to poorly communicated calls to evangelize is not to abandon all calls to evangelize. There are many beleivers who have a heart to evangelize. But they have fears, confusion, etc. on how to. So what do we tell these people. Don't listen to that calling. There is no such thing in the bible. Hogwash.

I think what Frank was getting at, and I may have it wrong, is that when you are deeply in love with Christ you will become more and more like Christ who delighted in doing the will of the Father. When our delight is found in serving Christ then I think denying the flesh is not such a battle. I used to love golf to such an extent that I gave up whatever got in the way of golf. To me, it is all a matter of where my heart is focused.

So, as you asked, who is in this state of love. I think many believers are when they are first saved. That 'first love' experience where we just had to tell others regardless of how it was received. But then somewhere along the line it becomes a duty and the flesh has many reasons not to do it. I think then it becomes a matter of returning to our 'first love' for Christ and trying to determine where we went astray and then it became more of a duty. Sometimes we can get so involved in evangelism or other church activities that we stray from quality personal encounters with God. Jesus showed us not to do this and He truly maintained a daily close encounter with the Father to know His will.

I think it is more about how we react to a guilt feeling that we should be sharing Christ with others more. I can respond by fighting my flesh and forcing myself to do something I have lost a heart to do and I probably will do it poorly and perhaps without much compassion or I can go about getting my heart right so that I want to do it more than other things. I think there is too much preaching regarding 'just do it' because it is the right thing to do rather than preaching about who Christ is and what He has done that causes us to want to serve Him.

I offended people with the 'T' view to say that most do not live out there belief on this and that was taken as an insult. I was trying to get at the same argument as this one on evangelism and that is when we believe something that really grips our heart we will naturally act in a way that expresses what is in our heart. As we study and pray for more of Christ to take over our hearts, we respond naturally to want to share Him with others. If we believe in our heart in never ending torment for the unsaved, this too will affect the way we live because it is in our heart. The real us and our true beliefs drive the way we live.

I'm convinced this is true about myself from past experience. Do I have this heart for sharing at the moment ? No and I find myself forcing myself to do it while my flesh is screaming not to. And my flesh is also keeping me from pursuing the relationship with God that I need to affect my heart for natural obedience. So at this point, it is about choice and yet it is also something I can't do on my own. It is a co-operative effort to get back into that kind of close relationship. God is willing but I have some reluctance.

I don't really support any belief that smacks of a legalistic approach to Christianity. I believe a strong and close relationship with God will give us the change we need in our hearts to freely obey. Today there is too much manipulation going on behind the pulpit to try to get believers to do something they don't have the heart to do. IMO, this is the wrong approach. Instead preach Christ and encourage a deep, personal, love relationship with Him and the actions will follow a changed heart.

Frank is one of my favorite authors.

He tightly biblical, but he "gets" a lot I think of where and how the institutional church in general has gotten off track and lost focus upon Christ.

If you read the article closely, he's not undermining evangelism. He's moving it from the new thoughts introduced by Moody and Finney that evangelicals no longer question and he deconstructs them and then reconstructs what it was to the early church stripped of the lens of tradition we see now. At least that's how I see it.

It's a challenging word though for sure

bart

Bart, I was quite taken with Frank's example of an organic church setting. To me, this unstructered approach to fellowship is quite refreshing. I think many churches have gone too far to 'maintain order' as they put it. Most everything is pre-arranged and today must go off with no delays. It is so much performance oriented. Whenever we do attempt to have a quiet spot it is almost frigthening to some to be in silence.

I think the way the scripture descibes coming together where one has a psalm, the other a song and so forth is still applicable. I grew up in a church where we had a period of testimonies and whoever wished to contribute would just stand up and speak. Order was still maintained by the facilitator and we really got to know one another and where we all were in our faith journeys. Today's services, in my experience, are a form of corporate worship but very lacking in community fellowship. The 'fellowship' I see is when people get together to talk about their secular interests - family, sports, career, etc. I don't think this is what the early church had much interest in.

Whoops, wandering off into another topic but perhaps that would be a good topic to kick around, unless it has been somewhere else in another thread. Do our churches need to get unstructured and facilitate more of an open fellowship ? I know I would like to see this so we could encourage, admonish and exhort one another when we do get together. And if we did this throughout the week, not just on Sunday, then we're really getting somewhere, IMO.

I thought these were some good tips on this subject - http://www.aibi.ph/articles/praylost.htm

SPECIFIC THINGS TO PRAY FOR:

1. That God will make them curious about spiritual things. The first hurdle is often sheer apathy with regard to the truth. Pray that God will stir them up to search out the truth about Life, The universe and Everything -for themselves.

2. Pray that God will surround your friend with witnessing Christians. Pray that they will feel absolutely surrounded and unable to escape from God. This forces people to consider Christ and the difference between their lives and the lives of true Christians.

3. Ask that they may clearly grasp that they are sinful. Unless there is a clear perception of sin there can be no true repentance from sin. They must know that they are in the wrong.

4. That God will grant them an almighty thirst for God's Word. That even as unbelievers they will want to read the Bible especially Genesis, Psalms, Isaiah and the Gospels.

5. Plead for a clear understanding of Jesus as Savior and Lord. With some of the heresies abroad today Jesus is often misunderstood. Pray that your friends may see Jesus as real and historical and also as divine. Pray that God may clear up any misunderstandings in these areas and be prepared to answer questions. Be clear about Jesus being the only way to a true and favorable relationship with God.

6. Intercede for your friends at any points where they are being held under Satan's power. Ask for release from wrong ways and bad influences. Their friends may be a real obstacle to their salvation, pray that they may not give in to them but may instead have the courage to believe in God. There is today an increasing interest in the occult and some people are badly hooked -pray for their release from this dark addiction so that they may be free to believe.

7. Ask for grace toward your friends so that they may develop godly tastes which lead them toward God and salvation. Pray that they may start liking Christian music or if they are literature buffs that C. S. Lewis, John Donne, Milton and T.S. Elliot may hold a fascination for them. If classical music - pray that the great Christian works of Bach and Handel may intrigue them. If rock music that the contemporary Christian rock bands with good messages may become their passion. Pray that in everything from bushwalking to building models that somehow their tastes will be drawn to that which witnesses to Christ.

I see some very concerning things here.
1. Number one is completely unbliblical and is akin to witchcraft.
God is not going to "make them" different than they are, overcome their will, or magically change their brain chemistry. It is perfectly OK to pray for believers to have their eyes enlightened.

2. I do pray the prayer Jesus prayed. That the Lord of the harvest will send forth laborers into the harvest. I also understand that when I pray this, I have to accept the reality that I am called to labor. I must say that "being surrounded and unable to escape" doesn't exactly sit right with me.

3. This is done by the preaching of the cross. Acts says that Paul preached to Felix righteousenss, temperance and the judgment to come, and Felix trembled. By preaching God's uncompromising holiness and man's utter sinfulness this will happen. Sadly Jesus is often preached as some sort of spiritual 'buddy' who is going to make life swell. Much of our modern methods fail to rightly exalt God, and expose the depravity of man.

4. God's grace always goes before us. He has given us all the tools we need to find him.

6.

"Ask for release from wrong ways and bad influences."

Anyone who will place their trust in Christ will be released from all their iniquity.

7. Pray that they may start liking Christian music? Why not just ask God to hypnotize them, or bring out vodoo dolls?

If we look at Paul we see a man who requested prayer for himself that he might proclaim Christ boldly. I would challenge anyone to find anything in the NT that models any type of prayer like what we see here.

Instead of this mumbo jumbo, let's look at what Paul requested.
Colossians 4:2-3 Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful. And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

Ephesians 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you.

I do understand that the heart behind this is that the lost would come to saving faith. I understand that. However, I so tire of all the attempts to substitute what the bible teaches us with alternate methods and strategies that are just flat off base.