Evidence for God from Science

What is the message behind the Marian apparitions?

God bless you all!!

Francesco

Hopefully Byblos sees this lol

CeT-To wrote:Hopefully Byblos sees this lol

I did see it. It depends on what kind of answer you're looking for, really. Most folks around here will probably tell you Marian apparitions are either hoaxes or devil-induced events. For most of them I would agree with the former; for the rest (that the Church thoroughly investigated (see list here)) I would agree with the Church's conclusions.

Do remember one thing, though, that the Marian doctrine is Christ-centric first and foremost.

Thanks Byblos, I'll check it up now.

So Byblos, which ones would you call fake or satan inspired? .. just curious.

CeT-To wrote:So Byblos, which ones would you call fake or satan inspired? .. just curious.

None. But I wouldn't put too much stock in any that haven't been investigated and approved by the Church.

ahh okay i understand, cause i came across this before and so i was wondering if what this article is saying correct. Here you can take a look at it - http://www.gotquestions.org/lady-fatima.html

God bless you Byblos!

Byblos, you posted:

Do remember one thing, though, that the Marian doctrine is Christ-centric first and foremost.

How does what you claim reconcile with the message of the Lady of Fatima? here:

"The Angel demonstrated to the children the fervent, attentive, and composed manner in which we should all pray, and the reverence we should show toward God in prayer. He also explained to them the great importance of praying and making sacrifices in reparation for the offenses committed against God.

This doesn't seem Christ centered to me. Hebrews 10:10 talks about the only sacrifice that God accepts. this is also part of the message:

"Finally, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, our Most Holy Mother, consists in considering Her as the seat of mercy, of goodness and of pardon, and as the sure door of entering Heaven."

Is this Christ-centered as well? Revelation 3:20 talks about the true door to enter heaven. Just some things to think about.

RickD wrote:Byblos, you posted:

Do remember one thing, though, that the Marian doctrine is Christ-centric first and foremost.

How does what you claim reconcile with the message of the Lady of Fatima? here:

"The Angel demonstrated to the children the fervent, attentive, and composed manner in which we should all pray, and the reverence we should show toward God in prayer. He also explained to them the great importance of praying and making sacrifices in reparation for the offenses committed against God.

This doesn't seem Christ centered to me. Hebrews 10:10 talks about the only sacrifice that God accepts.

What kind of sacrifices do you think is being spoken of? They're not altar sacrifices as offerings if that's what you're thinking, but simply self-sacrifice and charity. Why do you have a problem with that?

RickD wrote:this is also part of the message:

"Finally, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, our Most Holy Mother, consists in considering Her as the seat of mercy, of goodness and of pardon, and as the sure door of entering Heaven."

Is this Christ-centered as well? Revelation 3:20 talks about the true door to enter heaven.

In her role as intercessor, yes she is all those things. Nothing she does is of her own power and everything is through and for Christ. Catholics who don't know that are ignorant of their faith.

RickD wrote:Byblos, you posted:

Do remember one thing, though, that the Marian doctrine is Christ-centric first and foremost.

How does what you claim reconcile with the message of the Lady of Fatima? here:

"The Angel demonstrated to the children the fervent, attentive, and composed manner in which we should all pray, and the reverence we should show toward God in prayer. He also explained to them the great importance of praying and making sacrifices in reparation for the offenses committed against God.

This doesn't seem Christ centered to me. Hebrews 10:10 talks about the only sacrifice that God accepts.



What kind of sacrifices do you think is being spoken of? They're not altar sacrifices as offerings if that's what you're thinking, but simply self-sacrifice and charity. Why do you have a problem with that?

Byblos, I believe they are speaking of self- sacrifices. Giving up something important to them. Similar to what Catholics do at Lent. It's the point of making those sacrifices "in reparation for the offenses committed against God" that I have the problem with. Nothing we can do of ourselves can make amends(reparation) for our sins. Christ did that on the cross.

RickD wrote:this is also part of the message:

"Finally, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, our Most Holy Mother, consists in considering Her as the seat of mercy, of goodness and of pardon, and as the sure door of entering Heaven."

Is this Christ-centered as well? Revelation 3:20 talks about the true door to enter heaven.



In her role as intercessor, yes she is all those things. Nothing she does is of her own power and everything is through and for Christ. Catholics who don't know that are ignorant of their faith.

First, let me preface this by saying that I'm NOT saying that YOU believe the following:

"Finally, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, our Most Holy Mother, consists in considering Her as the seat of mercy, of goodness and of pardon, and as the sure door of entering Heaven."

The way this is written tells me that Mary is put in a place that only God should be. Read the sentence and tell me where it says that it says anything about doing anything through and for Christ. If Catholicism teaches what you say, then when they make statements like this, it doesn't show that. When I read that sentence, I see it saying that Mary is the sure door of entering Heaven. How can one read it any other way?

Byblos, if Catholicism teaches that Mary does what she does through the power of Christ, and not of her own power, then the apparition must not be from God. Look at the following to see my point:

She showed Her Heart, surrounded by piercing thorns (which represented the sins against Her Immaculate Heart),

This is telling that the sins were against Her Immaculate Heart. Not sins against God.

The children also saw that God is terribly offended by the sins of humanity, and that He desires each of us and all mankind to abandon sin and make reparation for their crimes through prayer and sacrifice.

Again, Christ already made "reparation" for ALL sin once and for all.

"The children were also told to pray and sacrifice themselves for sinners, in order to save them from hell.

Now children can sacrifice themselves for sinners, in order to save them from hell? Is Christ's sacrifice that was once and for all, now meaningless?

You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.'

Now, to save sinners, God wishes to establish devotion to "My Immaculate Heart"? Is that what the Bible says about how souls are saved from hell?

Our Lady said, 'My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.' If we wish to go to God, we have a sure way to Him through true devotion to the Immaculate Heart of His Mother.

Now Christ isn't the way to God. Mary's Immaculate Heart is.

And we must make sacrifices, especially the sacrifice of doing our daily duty, in reparation for the sins committed against Our Lord and Our Lady. She also stressed the necessity of prayers and sacrifices to save poor sinners from hell. The Message of Fatima, to individual souls, is summarized in these things.

We must make sacrifices in reparation for sins committed "against Our Lord and Our Lady"? Again, this statement is putting Mary equal to Jesus. And again stressed the "necessity of prayers and sacrifices to save poor sinners from hell". Christ's sacrifice is again made worthless. Byblos, by legitimizing this Marian apparition, the Catholic Church(the Church hierarchy, not necessarily the people in the Church)is agreeing with what the "apparition" says. If the Catholic church truly teaches what you claim, then they should have spoken out against this "apparition". This anti-biblical apparition was endorsed by the Catholic Church, correct?

RickD wrote:Byblos, if Catholicism teaches that Mary does what she does through the power of Christ, and not of her own power, then the apparition must not be from God. Look at the following to see my point:

She showed Her Heart, surrounded by piercing thorns (which represented the sins against Her Immaculate Heart),

This is telling that the sins were against Her Immaculate Heart. Not sins against God.

And who do you think is at the heart of her immaculate heart? Christ.

RickD wrote:

The children also saw that God is terribly offended by the sins of humanity, and that He desires each of us and all mankind to abandon sin and make reparation for their crimes through prayer and sacrifice.

Again, Christ already made "reparation" for ALL sin once and for all.

Only if you believe in the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS. I don't (and many Protestant denoms don't either). Note, however, the bolded part. Who is offended by the sins of humanity? It's certainly not Mary's immaculate heart (as you perceive it).

RickD wrote:

"The children were also told to pray and sacrifice themselves for sinners, in order to save them from hell.

Now children can sacrifice themselves for sinners, in order to save them from hell? Is Christ's sacrifice that was once and for all, now meaningless?

I really don't know where you're getting this. Do you really think the children were told to sacrifice themselves? They were told to make sacrifices and to pray.

RickD wrote:

You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.'

Now, to save sinners, God wishes to establish devotion to "My Immaculate Heart"? Is that what the Bible says about how souls are saved from hell?

Who is the centerpiece of her immaculate heart?

RickD wrote:

Our Lady said, 'My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.' If we wish to go to God, we have a sure way to Him through true devotion to the Immaculate Heart of His Mother.

Now Christ isn't the way to God. Mary's Immaculate Heart is.

Christ is at the center of her immaculate heart, she draws people to Him, that is her function, by the power of God.

RickD wrote:

And we must make sacrifices, especially the sacrifice of doing our daily duty, in reparation for the sins committed against Our Lord and Our Lady. She also stressed the necessity of prayers and sacrifices to save poor sinners from hell. The Message of Fatima, to individual souls, is summarized in these things.

We must make sacrifices in reparation for sins committed "against Our Lord and Our Lady"? Again, this statement is putting Mary equal to Jesus. And again stressed the "necessity of prayers and sacrifices to save poor sinners from hell". Christ's sacrifice is again made worthless. Byblos, by legitimizing this Marian apparition, the Catholic Church(the Church hierarchy, not necessarily the people in the Church)is agreeing with what the "apparition" says. If the Catholic church truly teaches what you claim, then they should have spoken out against this "apparition". This anti-biblical apparition was endorsed by the Catholic Church, correct?

I really don't know if this apparition was endorsed or not but if it was it would not change a thing of what I'm saying. Look, I'm not going to debate this particular apparition line by line with you, that is not my intention. But let me leave you with a few thoughts to ponder, what is the single most visible act of devotion in Catholic theology? No, it is not Mary or praying to the saints, it is not purgatory or limbo, it is not even confession or baptism (but awfully close). It is mass my friend, daily mass. A devotion celebrated daily hundreds of thousands of times in churches around the world. I'll give you two guesses as to who is the centerpiece of that devotion Rick (and the second one don't count). Not only is Christ at the heart of this devotion, I'm certain you know we believe He IS there with us body, blood, soul and divinity in the blessed Eucharist. Catholicism is Christ-centered and EVERYTHING Marian is pointing to that center, even if it is not repeated, it is understood (or OUGHT to be at least). I understand if Non-Catholics, especially Protestants, have many misconceptions about that but I will repeat over and over until I take my dying breath, Catholics who don't know that Christ is at the heart of Catholic faith are ignorant of that faith.

And by the way, The Hail Mary is optional during mass but not part of the daily liturgy, go figure.

Byblos, thank you for your response. I have heard this from you before, and I know what you believe. And, I know what you say the Catholic Church teaches. Where in the apparition's instructions does he say any of what you're saying? Is it supposed to be assumed? Because just from reading the instructions of the apparition like I did, I would never infer what you're saying. I'm guessing that many Catholics would also read it the way I did. If that is an accurate guess on my part, who's responsible for perpetuating the false idolization of Mary?

RickD wrote:Byblos, thank you for your response. I have heard this from you before, and I know what you believe. And, I know what you say the Catholic Church teaches. Where in the apparition's instructions does he say any of what you're saying? Is it supposed to be assumed? Because just from reading the instructions of the apparition like I did, I would never infer what you're saying. I'm guessing that many Catholics would also read it the way I did. If that is an accurate guess on my part, who's responsible for perpetuating the false idolization of Mary?

That's what I'm trying to tell you, Catholics ought to know better than reading it the way you do. And if they don't, they need to educate themselves in their own faith. We can blame the church all we want for perpetuating a perceived myth but we need to take responsibility for our own faith. When judgement day comes pleading ignorance of the faith is not going to shield anyone because they were members of a certain church. There is no two ways around it, if Mary is to be idolized the way non-catholics think catholics do, then catholics are really a confused bunch because when they go to mass there is not a HINT of Mary, other than perhaps an optional Hail Mary that asks for her intercessory prayers. I mean if this is not proof that the doctrine is Christ-centric I really don't know what is. The heart and soul of catholic faith is the mass and the honor of that mass falls on Christ's feet alone. Everything else is immaterial, as far as I'm concerned. If I were to sum up catholic faith in one sentence it would be the bolded part in my signature line below (which is repeated daily in every single mass).

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:Byblos, thank you for your response. I have heard this from you before, and I know what you believe. And, I know what you say the Catholic Church teaches. Where in the apparition's instructions does he say any of what you're saying? Is it supposed to be assumed? Because just from reading the instructions of the apparition like I did, I would never infer what you're saying. I'm guessing that many Catholics would also read it the way I did. If that is an accurate guess on my part, who's responsible for perpetuating the false idolization of Mary?

That's what I'm trying to tell you, Catholics ought to know better than reading it the way you do. And if they don't, they need to educate themselves in their own faith. We can blame the church all we want for perpetuating a perceived myth but we need to take responsibility for our own faith. When judgement day comes pleading ignorance of the faith is not going to shield anyone because they were members of a certain church. There is no two ways around it, if Mary is to be idolized the way non-catholics think catholics do, then catholics are really a confused bunch because when they go to mass there is not a HINT of Mary, other than perhaps an optional Hail Mary that asks for her intercessory prayers. I mean if this is not proof that the doctrine is Christ-centric I really don't know what is. The heart and soul of catholic faith is the mass and the honor of that mass falls on Christ's feet alone. Everything else is immaterial, as far as I'm concerned. If I were to sum up catholic faith in one sentence it would be the bolded part in my signature line below (which is repeated daily in every single mass).

Byblos, every Catholic mass I've been to is mostly about Mary, and rituals. There has only been a "hint" of the real Jesus. Masses, funerals, weddings, etc. My wife and her family have had the same experience as I did. There was no Biblical Gospel preached at any Mass they attended.