Evidence for God from Science

Are we all created as immortal beings or does God give immortality only to those who believe ?

There are scriptures that indicate that God alone is immortal - 1 Tim 1:17, 1 Tim 6:15-16 and that man is created as a mortal being Romans 1:23. And Romans 2:7 talks about immortality being sought after by man. But it will be granted only to “those who are considered worthy” Luke 20:34-36, to the believer in Christ alone, and then only when Jesus returns 1Cor. 15:53

Yet many in Christianity have been taught that the soul is immortal because we are made in God's image. So, why do we not have the other characteristics of God then also, is asked ?

Perhaps someone could give a site regarding unconditional immortality or other scriptural support that every soul is immortal. The conditionalists say that no where in the scriptures is there support for everyone to have an immortal soul.

Anyway, this is a link to a site that strongly supports immortality being conditional.

http://www.afterlife.co.nz/what-is-cond ... f-summary/

Without getting into the nature of hell debate, can we just look at the scriptural support or lack thereof for whether or not immortality is conditional or not ?

Sudsy wrote:Are we all created as immortal beings or does God give immortality only to those who believe ?

There are scriptures that indicate that God alone is immortal - 1 Tim 1:17, 1 Tim 6:15-16 and that man is created as a mortal being Romans 1:23. And Romans 2:7 talks about immortality being sought after by man. But it will be granted only to “those who are considered worthy” Luke 20:34-36, to the believer in Christ alone, and then only when Jesus returns 1Cor. 15:53

Yet many in Christianity have been taught that the soul is immortal because we are made in God's image. So, why do we not have the other characteristics of God then also, is asked ?

Perhaps someone could give a site regarding unconditional immortality or other scriptural support that every soul is immortal. The conditionalists say that no where in the scriptures is there support for everyone to have an immortal soul.

Anyway, this is a link to a site that strongly supports immortality being conditional.

http://www.afterlife.co.nz/what-is-cond ... f-summary/

Without getting into the nature of hell debate, can we just look at the scriptural support or lack thereof for whether or not immortality is conditional or not ?

Been thru this already... There is a difference between inherent the Greek athanasí, immortality and being created an eternal being.

Does 1 Timothy 6 verse 16 support the conditionalist / annihilationist point of view?

Please note context of 1 Timothy 6 verse 16 starting in verse 13.

1 Timothy 6:13, "I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate…”NKJV

Notice the phrase – God who gives life to all things – this is a key verse. It is the Immortal God that gives life. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance. We, as Human beings have a definite being and from the moment of that beginning, eternity was placed in our hearts as humanity was originally designed to be in God’s eternal image.

1 Timothy 6:14, 15, “…that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords…”NKJV

Now read verse 16 in context is referring to Jesus Christ…

1 Timothy 6:16, “..who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”NKJV

We, as human beings had a definite starting point, but Jesus Christ did not, therefore truly He alone is from everlasting to everlasting…always had true immortality. On the other hand, we human beings had a beginning – true immortality of God is that God has no beginning or end. We had a beginning and from that beginning were fashioned with eternity in our hearts and thus designed to be eternal beings from a starting point. We are eternal beings with a definite beginning. God does not have a beginning and thus He alone is truly immortal (Having no beginning because God always had immortality).

AMG Word studies sheds more light on this and I suggest you read this and file any complaints with them...

AMG Word Studies wrote: athanasía; gen. athanasías, fem. noun from athánatos (n.f.), immortal, which is from the priv. a (G1), without, and thánatos (G2288), death. Rendered "immortality" in 1 Co 15:53-54 of the glorified body of the believer. In the NT it expresses the nature not of life itself, but strictly speaking, only a quality of life such as the quality of the life of God and the resurrection body of the believer. Our bodies are subject to death, mortal (related to thnētós [G2349], to die). Used in Rom 6:12 of the body where it is called "mortal," not simply because it is liable to death but because it is the organ in and through which death carries on its fatal activities.

The only other place where athanasía occurs is 1 Ti 6:16 where the word is used in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ in His manifestation as the God-Man. It is true that He suffered death, His physical body and His spirit separated one from the other, but they did not remain separated. He brought them together once again with an incorruptible body that had all the characteristics that our resurrection body will have.

The Lord Jesus Himself, however, has inherent athanasía, immortality, in that no one could permanently separate His body from His spirit. He raised His body and joined it together with His spirit which temporarily had been committed to the Father. Thus He is the only One who inherently has always had immortality.

The phrase here is as it is found in Gr.: "the only one having immortality" (a.t.), meaning that He always had it. He never gave it up and He still has it.

Therefore, athanasía always refers to the non-separation of the spirit. This is the quality of having the spirit attached to the resurrection body, while aphtharsía refers to the incapacity of the new resurrection body to deteriorate. This is a quality, however, that our present bodies do not have but will have in the resurrection.

Look at the retranslated verse 16 below…

1 Timothy 6:16, “..who always had immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”

Note the context with the translated verse 16.

1 Timothy 6:13, 14, 15, “I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords…”

1 Timothy 6:16, “..who always had immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”

Bible qoutes from NKJV or ESV
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An alternative view -

The immortal God does give us eternal life but He does this through the Gospel and this gift is 'without repentence', meaning He does not take it back. Man desires to be immortal and to live forever and seeks after immortality but this is because he is not immortal at birth.

There are various interpretations of 'eternity is placed in our hearts'. Actually one being that this 'eternity' could be as easily translated to be 'darkness' or 'ignorance' which requires a change in vowels of the Hebrew word, which is permissible because the original text was written only in consonants with vowels being added centuries after the text was completed. In other words - He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set darkness in the hearts of men so men cannot comprehend all that God has done from beginning to end. When many things occur that we cannot easily explain (i.e. suffering of good people), we can live by faith and trust God to be soverign and right in what He does. And another interpretation is that this refers to man being different from animals with the ability to ponder life beyond the present.

Therefore, God has not committed Himself to retaining an eternal existence in man when He has not created this eternal existence in the first place.

Sudsy wrote:An alternative view -

The immortal God does give us eternal life but He does this through the Gospel and this gift is 'without repentence', meaning He does not take it back. Man desires to be immortal and to live forever and seeks after immortality but this is because he is not immortal at birth.

There are various interpretations of 'eternity is placed in our hearts'. Actually one being that this 'eternity' could be as easily translated to be 'darkness' or 'ignorance' which requires a change in vowels of the Hebrew word, which is permissible because the original text was written only in consonants with vowels being added centuries after the text was completed. In other words - He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set darkness in the hearts of men so men cannot comprehend all that God has done from beginning to end. When many things occur that we cannot easily explain (i.e. suffering of good people), we can live by faith and trust God to be soverign and right in what He does. And another interpretation is that this refers to man being different from animals with the ability to ponder life beyond the present.

Therefore, God has not committed Himself to retaining an eternal existence in man when He has not created this eternal existence in the first place.

If so, the God would be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt of showing Partiality.

Does or would God ever Deny Himself? Fail in keeping his words or promises?

The alternate example posed would cause God to Deny Himself…

Lastly, As for your take on Ec 3:11 please note that the context of Ec 3 is connected to Ec 3:14 which defines verse 11's use of eternity as forever – God is indeed wiser than men:

"I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him." -Ec 3:14
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If so, the God would be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt of showing Partiality.

Not so. God impartially will give the same chance for all to receive eternal life. So, there is lots of reason to doubt that this makes God partial.

Does or would God ever Deny Himself? Fail in keeping his words or promises?

Please explain what God is supposedly denying Himself of ? What promise is He not keeping ?

Sudsy wrote:

If so, the God would be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt of showing Partiality.

Not so. God impartially will give the same chance for all to receive eternal life. So, there is lots of reason to doubt that this makes God partial.

Does or would God ever Deny Himself? Fail in keeping his words or promises?

Please explain what God is supposedly denying Himself of ? What promise is He not keeping ?

If God annihilated into non-being - He shows partiality as well as denies his gift of the type of life granted humanity – we were designed in accord of whose eternal image?

It would prove God unjust in that He cannot keep his word or promises as well. Again, the alternate position stated would cause God to act contrary to himself as being the Living God.

I suggest you take a look at all of God’s character, nature, attributes and not select one at the expense of all the others just to support man centered annihilationism’s conditional immortality theory. Next stop reading and justifying the use of ‘extinction of being’ in every verse that uses fire, cut-off, death, punishment, smoke, judgments, etc… God is above all reproach..

What promises, gifts, callings, his word spoken - God would deny? Why the ones Genesis chapters 1 and 2 for starters which sets the stage for what Rev 4:11 describes...

In fact, what the entire bible reveals about God and His will... would be denied by the annihilationism’s conditional immortality theory which twist the bible to fit what serves best for man - not God.
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If God annihilated into non-being - He shows partiality as well as denies his gift of the type of life granted humanity – we were designed in accord of whose eternal image?

An alternate view is that being designed in accord with the image of God does not state we are made immortal anymore than it meaning we are all-powerful or all-knowing or everywhere present. So God is not denying anyone immortal life but neither is He giving it out unconditionally which then would be partial.

It would prove God unjust in that He cannot keep his word or promises as well. Again, the alternate position stated would cause God to act contrary to himself as being the Living God.

An alternate view is that God always is just and keeps His word without making immortality unconditional.

I suggest you take a look at all of God’s character, nature, attributes and not select one at the expense of all the others just to support man centered annihilationism’s conditional immortality theory. Next stop reading and justifying the use of ‘extinction of being’ in every verse that uses fire, cut-off, death, punishment, smoke, judgments, etc… God is above all reproach..

I suggest you offer your views without slamming those of others. Do you think you can do that ?

Do you think you can debate in a civil way and knock it off with 'man centered annihilationism’s conditional immortality theory' and 'twist the bible to fit what serves best for man - not God' type of comments ?

This thread is about whether immortality is conditional or not according to scriptures. We don't need to get into your hatred for all the aspects of the 'A' view as you have expressed them many times elsewhere.

Sudsy wrote:

If God annihilated into non-being - He shows partiality as well as denies his gift of the type of life granted humanity – we were designed in accord of whose eternal image?

An alternate view is that being designed in accord with the image of God does not state we are made immortal anymore than it meaning we are all-powerful or all-knowing or everywhere present. So God is not denying anyone immortal life but neither is He giving it out unconditionally which then would be partial.

It would prove God unjust in that He cannot keep his word or promises as well. Again, the alternate position stated would cause God to act contrary to himself as being the Living God.

An alternate view is that God always is just and keeps His word without making immortality unconditional.

I suggest you take a look at all of God’s character, nature, attributes and not select one at the expense of all the others just to support man centered annihilationism’s conditional immortality theory. Next stop reading and justifying the use of ‘extinction of being’ in every verse that uses fire, cut-off, death, punishment, smoke, judgments, etc… God is above all reproach..

I suggest you offer your views without slamming those of others. Do you think you can do that ?

Do you think you can debate in a civil way and knock it off with 'man centered annihilationism’s conditional immortality theory' and 'twist the bible to fit what serves best for man - not God' type of comments ?

This thread is about whether immortality is conditional or not according to scriptures. We don't need to get into your hatred for all the aspects of the 'A' view as you have expressed them many times elsewhere.

Sudsy, we have been through this before on the ‘infinite punishment for finite sins’ thread. And No one is slamming you. A good suggestion would be to have stuck to that thread instead of adding another one.

For God to exterminate into non-being oblivion would prove beyond all reasonable doubt that God is truly partial. How: by annihilating the life in one person then granting life to another. In other words, this proves that God does indeed revokes his own gift of life (Acts 17:25) by taking it away due to annihilation resulting extinction into non-being showing preference to another to live.

Also such extermination proves that God cannot keep/fulfill his word as spoken in Gen 1:26, 28 and also in Gen 2:15 and that God is not truly righteously just to the just and to the unjust. To do as annihilationist insist, God must deny who He is – a God of profound Justice. If God annihilates the devil wins…

In fact the term used by annihilationist, conditional immortality, itself suggest God shows partiality to beings he purposed and designed special so they can share part in his eternal image in order that they can mirror i.e. be a reflection how God governs righteously, etc, wherever such are assigned. Angels and human beings were fashioned with great intelligence and reason. From this, it sets us apart from animals. Humans were designed to take care of God’s creation on earth.

For conditional immortality be true it results in God denying himself, having him deny his word, his gifts, by causing God to be absolutely partial in granting life to one and exterminating into non-existence another. God would need to deny who He is to do so plain and simple.

Now, If God only made human beings potentially eternal this would prove God is partial to his own eternal nature. So, if human beings were created only potentially eternal – how long would of Adam and Eve have lived in their mortal bodies if they never Sinned? If God truly created them to be only potentially eternal – they should have die anyways of old age without ever sinning. The bible does not support this as Romans 5:12 clearly states.

No, human beings were fashion and purposed by God to be eternal beings as the bible plainly reveals in order to take care of the things created by God. Sin came and mortal death entered the world of men. The spiritual part of man returns to God who made it where our spiritual being is judged, and we either return to the Lord as his own possession or sent to the prison pit of Hell. Where both wait in different locations for the rejoining of one’s newly constituted body know as the resurrection of the dead.

One reason for the resurrection of the body is so that what was declared by God in Gen 1:26, 28 (see Side Note A below) and also in Gen 2:15 can come about in the new heavens and earth of the future for those saved by the Lord. Those who are not – face another domain forever. To avoid all unrighteousness, God squares things by making a place to confine the Devil and his minions forever.

No violation to anything God said, promised, or given is revoked to either the just or unjust. That is how fair and just God is. God’s justice is applied to all in ways too profound to go into great details here as I am being very brief. Suggest readers to look over the discussion linked too here for more details and scripture support if they desire: God and Science Link Infinite punishment for finite sins thread here
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Note A: One reason for the resurrection of the body is so that what was declared by God in Gen 1:26, 28 and Gen 2:15 can come about… Please note the procreation part having already been fulfilled in this mortal life – Mark 12:25 – as the number of people God determined is complete…

Sudsy wrote:Are we all created as immortal beings or does God give immortality only to those who believe ?

There are scriptures that indicate that God alone is immortal - 1 Tim 1:17, 1 Tim 6:15-16 and that man is created as a mortal being Romans 1:23. And Romans 2:7 talks about immortality being sought after by man. But it will be granted only to “those who are considered worthy” Luke 20:34-36, to the believer in Christ alone, and then only when Jesus returns 1Cor. 15:53

Yet many in Christianity have been taught that the soul is immortal because we are made in God's image. So, why do we not have the other characteristics of God then also, is asked ?

Perhaps someone could give a site regarding unconditional immortality or other scriptural support that every soul is immortal. The conditionalists say that no where in the scriptures is there support for everyone to have an immortal soul.

Anyway, this is a link to a site that strongly supports immortality being conditional.

http://www.afterlife.co.nz/what-is-cond ... f-summary/

Without getting into the nature of hell debate, can we just look at the scriptural support or lack thereof for whether or not immortality is conditional or not ?

Hi Sudsy.

I do not think we are created immortal, and yet I do not believe we can be entirely rubbed out of existence either.

A question important to ask I think is: "How did God create us?" Did He literally create us out of absolutely nothing? How is that logically possible? If nothing exists, then from nothing nothing comes... to believe otherwise makes Atheists no less illogical if they affirm our universe came from nothing.

If God alone has always existed, then we can only assume that God formed us with some of His own substance (since logically there is no other substance from which we could have been made). Given our sentience, I assume that our soul/spirit is of divine origin. When we die our "spirits" return to God, rather than cease. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

We often think that we are created entirely separately and apart from God. Yet, if this is not so, and we are at some foundational ontological sense derived from God Himself, then it becomes quite complicated to explain just how this substance, our spirit/soul, can be wiped entirely from existence. Thoughts?

And just incase anyone is thinking, no I am in no way a pantheist.

Sudsy, we have been through this before on the ‘infinite punishment for finite sins’ thread. And No one is slamming you. A good suggestion would be to have stuck to that thread instead of adding another one.

I didn't say you were slamming me but rather slamming the views of others. IMO, the other thread was too cluttered with repeated rhetoric and certain key points, I believe, were lost in all the slamming dialogue.

For God to exterminate into non-being oblivion would prove beyond all reasonable doubt that God is truly partial. How: by annihilating the life in one person then granting life to another. In other words, this proves that God does indeed revokes his own gift of life (Acts 17:25) by taking it away due to annihilation resulting extinction into non-being showing preference to another to live.

What is most strange to me about this argument is the concept that God somehow has put Himself in a jam. On the one hand He doesn't want anyone to perish. On the other hand, He supposedly has given the gift of life that He can't take back and therefore, He must assign unbelievers to never ending torment. In my opinion, this thinking puts God into some kind of box that then must be justified by those who say unbelievers deserve endless punishing or some say God is giving them what they want.

Alternatively, since I find no scriptural support that proves we are all immortal beings, God, in some fair way, I believe, gives all men a chance at immortality. God is not partial in this. God is not preferring that one live and one die but rather that all should come to repentance and have eternal life. He is not taking life from anyone, they are forfeiting their life by not accepting the conditions that He made to have eternal life.

Also such extermination proves that God cannot keep/fulfill his word as spoken in Gen 1:26, 28 and also in Gen 2:15 and that God is not truly righteously just to the just and to the unjust. To do as annihilationist insist, God must deny who He is – a God of profound Justice. If God annihilates the devil wins…

Alternatively, God gives all men a fair chance to have eternal life. Exactly how, I do not know. God is not denying who He is and yes, He is a God of profound justice. I'm sure glad that He is God and that you are not. He is also a God of profound love and mercy. God is not in the jam that you might want to put Him in. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Kurieuo posted -

A question important to ask I think is: "How did God create us?"

Out of the dust of the ground, right ? Genesis 2:7, Genesis 3:19 . The human body is made up of materials and minerals found on the surface of the ground, and not from the core of the earth. Oxygen, being the most abundant element on the earth’s crust or on the ground, makes up 65 percent of the human body, and carbon, also abundant on the top soil of the ground, is 18 percent, and hydrogen is 10 percent. The 59 elements found in the human body are all found on the earths crust. This is amazing because what the Bible says perfectly match the scientific composition of a human body.

We often think that we are created entirely separately and apart from God. Yet, if this is not so, and we are at some foundational ontological sense derived from God Himself, then it becomes quite complicated to explain just how this substance, our spirit/soul, can be wiped entirely from existence. Thoughts?

I personally don't believe we can explain how God can do many things but nothing is impossible with God. How can God not remember our sins ? And yet He forgets them all. I don't care to put God in some kind of box with my limited understandings of Him and suggest what He can and cannot do. My regard to allowing some to be blotted out, so to speak, fits much better with a God of love and justice then some kind of never ending existence in torment. And before B.W. goes off on 'what is best for man', yes I do believe it is best for man but also what is just, merciful and loving for God. Do I know beyond any doubt what God will ultimately do with those who reject Him ? No, but from His dealings with people throughout the scriptures, I find no support for never ending torment in a lake of fire.

So, I take it that other then a concept that God gives life as a gift to all men and God can't take back what He gives and if He did He would be partial, I haven't heard any good scriptural support that we are all immortal and therefore all of us, after a resurrection, must continue to exist in either heaven or the lake of fire.

Note that after Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they became two convicted sinners, with the ability to reproduce their kind: beings that sin. What was God to do under these circumstances? If He permitted them to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life - a tree which could confer immortality upon eating its fruit - the world would have become populated with a race of immortal sinners! To prevent such a catastrophe from occurring God took a positive course of action. "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden" (Genesis 3:22-23). These words, to me, show that man was totally mortal, and that God took preventative action to avert him from becoming immortal!

Anyway, these are some alternate views to the commonly held view that every man is an immortal being.

Sudsy wrote:Kurieuo posted -

A question important to ask I think is: "How did God create us?"

Out of the dust of the ground, right ? Genesis 2:7, Genesis 3:19 . The human body is made up of materials and minerals found on the surface of the ground, and not from the core of the earth. Oxygen, being the most abundant element on the earth’s crust or on the ground, makes up 65 percent of the human body, and carbon, also abundant on the top soil of the ground, is 18 percent, and hydrogen is 10 percent. The 59 elements found in the human body are all found on the earths crust. This is amazing because what the Bible says perfectly match the scientific composition of a human body.

I'm not an artist, but I could try mould the form of the human body with clay. But it wouldn't come to life. And yet, God "breathed life" into them which seems to incorporate something a lot more. Are you saying you believe we humans are merely material beings?

sudsy wrote:

K wrote:We often think that we are created entirely separately and apart from God. Yet, if this is not so, and we are at some foundational ontological sense derived from God Himself, then it becomes quite complicated to explain just how this substance, our spirit/soul, can be wiped entirely from existence. Thoughts?

I personally don't believe we can explain how God can do many things but nothing is impossible with God. How can God not remember our sins ? And yet He forgets them all. I don't care to put God in some kind of box with my limited understandings of Him and suggest what He can and cannot do. My regard to allowing some to be blotted out, so to speak, fits much better with a God of love and justice then some kind of never ending existence in torment.

Who says God forgets our sins?

Aside, Christians often label many theological matters mysterious or inexplicable. Many Atheists, previously Christian, love re-telling their stories of times as a Christan when they were told "not everything can be explained", "God is mysterious", "just trust in God" or something similar. Some Christians may feel uncomfortable when they don't have an immediate answer to a question, or feel uncomfortable with where the response would lead. This is no reason to throw our hands up and walk away.

If you are asking questions about the immortality of our substance, then surely it is a fair question to ask: "How, given it is accepted we are derived from God's eternal substance, we personally can be entirely annihilated?"

I have an idea of my own, but then it is not consistent with God's holy nature. I will refrain from stating it here though so as to not influence or cloud your own ideas.

sudsy wrote:And before B.W. goes off on 'what is best for man', yes I do believe it is best for man but also what is just, merciful and loving for God. Do I know beyond any doubt what God will ultimately do with those who reject Him ? No, but from His dealings with people throughout the scriptures, I find no support for never ending torment in a lake of fire.

I wonder if B.W. would put it in those terms. Perhaps I misunderstand Traditionalism, but the way you present it always seems so strawmanish in attempting to paint a picture of God torturing people in fire for eternity.

sudsy wrote:Anyway, these are some alternate views to the commonly held view that every man is an immortal being.

To reclarify my position: "I do not think we are created immortal, and yet I do not believe we can be entirely rubbed out of existence either."

Further to this, I do not believe God can rub us out of existence without impugning His holy nature. I do not believe this because I think it would be morally wrong of God to wipe us out of existence, although perhaps a strong argument could be made on this basis. I have other reasoning behind this which I will withhold for now until I think it appropriate to elaborate on in this discussion.

Are you saying you believe we humans are merely material beings?

Your question was - "How did God create us?" Did He literally create us out of absolutely nothing?

I answered with scripture that says He created us from the dust of the earth not 'ex nihilo'. Scripture does say that "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3. God spoke and things appeared. So, regardless of what atheists think, we apply faith not human logic to how God created the worlds.

I agree that God did 'breathe the breath of life' into the first human creation. Does this mean then that this makes us immortal beings or that we will all 'put on' immortality in a body that cannot be brought back to ashes in a second death ? I just don't see adequate proof it does.

You posted -

When we die our "spirits" return to God, rather than cease. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Yes, but this does not say that all spirits remain with God. Another question is - can a spirit be destroyed ? I believe it can be destroyed in the second death for those who reject the gift of eternal life. Or, some might speculate that the spirit ultimately does return to God after the body and soul is destroyed in the second death but it remains in a lifeless form.

Here are some questions about your spirit - where was your spirit prior to you being born into this world ? Was it with God ? Did it even exist ? Did it have any bodily form ? Is God creating new human spirits for every person that man choses to come into this world ? When is this spirit in man ? Before or after man tyakes his first breathe ? Is God assigning pre-existing spirits to certain bodies ? Or is this a random thing ? Do you have definite answers to all of these types of questions ? I sure don't.

Who says God forgets our sins?

Scripture does - 'For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more' Heb 8:12 and 'And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more' Heb 10:17

surely it is a fair question to ask: "How, given it is accepted we are derived from God's eternal substance, we personally can be entirely annihilated?"

For sure we can ask questions but there is no assurance that God will reveal the absolute truths about everything. I believe there is much that God wants us to just trust Him with and the atheist problem is that He will not take this step of faith. I am not uncomfortable in the fact that God does not reveal everything we are curious to know as scripture makes it clear that we don't see everything clearly yet. More blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed. But I like to speculate on some areas using what scriptures appear to indicate. You may think it is impossible for God to put something out of existence when it originally was made up of some of who God is. Myself, I don't need to logically know how God could do this and yet believe He can do anything, far beyond what my little brain can comprehend.

I have an idea of my own, but then it is not consistent with God's holy nature. I will refrain from stating it here though so as to not influence or cloud your own ideas.

Do what you feel comfortable with. Don't hold back for my sake, I'm open to hear anyone's thoughts.

I wonder if B.W. would put it in those terms. Perhaps I misunderstand Traditionalism, but the way you present it always seems so strawmanish in attempting to paint a picture of God torturing people in fire for eternity.

Some with the 'T' view on the nature of hell would word it quite like you just posted it - 'God torturing people in fire for eternity'. I grew up with that exact belief. Others would somehow make this out to be a loving act/gift of God to those who have chosen this eternal existence. How this is a 'gift of life', is beyond my reasonings. However, I think we got into the nature of hell quite heavily in the other thread.

Sudsy wrote:What is most strange to me about this argument is the concept that God somehow has put Himself in a jam. On the one hand He doesn't want anyone to perish. On the other hand, He supposedly has given the gift of life that He can't take back and therefore, He must assign unbelievers to never ending torment. In my opinion, this thinking puts God into some kind of box that then must be justified by those who say unbelievers deserve endless punishing or some say God is giving them what they want...

Yes, God could wipe everything out into a non-being stated as it is written:

Job 34:14, 15, "If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." NKJV

But God chooses not too as evidence in Genesis 6 when He could have done so.

Genesis 6:7, "So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." NKJV

God chose also not to wipe out the Devil when He could have and none of this would have ever been known by us.

Ezekiel 28:14, 15 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you." NKJV

So the hard question to ask –is why didn’t the Lord wipe out into non-being?

This question is answered within the bible where God reveals who he is. His absolute sense of justice and love prevents him too – though he could. If the Lord did, he would be forced to deny some aspect of His own righteous character – then would He really be all that He is? Such is the Majesty of the Lord.

So God purposes that his special beings fashioned with great intelligence and reason designed to take care of some aspect belonging to God, he fashioned them as eternal because he is eternal having an eternal purpose for each.

(Evidence from the bible concerning God’s reason for fashioning human beings eternal - Gen 1:26, Ec 3:11, Ec 3:14, Job 26:5, Ezekiel 26:20, Dan 12:2-3 and this is just a few from the OT. Again, Sudsy – if God did not design human beings to be eternal, and if Adam and Eve never had sinned – when would they have died of old age?)

Let’s move on…

Okay, let’s say God does annihilate into non-existence due to being unable to endure forever seeing people in agonizing suffering, just as the traditional scholars of annihilationism contend from the annihilationist links on the 'Infinite punishment for Finite sins' thread. So how does this faucet of God’s morality intuitively affect us, today, in the past?

Since we can’t stand to see agonizing suffering, we can put down a suffering animal. How about, the severely disabled or developmentally disabled? How about those agonizingly suffering through the effect of old age or dementia, cancers, etc… They agonizingly suffer… So it the morally superior right thing to extinguish their life! If God does it, then it is the morally superior right logical course to take!

So humanity being created in God’s image and likeness, we should be able to exterminate life solely on the basis of not wanting to see agonizing suffering. How can God condemn the Nazi’s for mercy killing the developmentally disabled and disabled before WW II? Or the Hemlock Society which see’s ol’ Granny suffering severe dementia – so with the greatest display of mercy and love kill her to put an end to suffering?

After all, God will annihilate into non-being for the same reason – stop unnecessary agonizing suffering but God will, however, do so in a far worse manner by waiting to annihilate a certain group of people after torturing such people briefly! We on the other, we just put people out of their misery, so kindly, so loving are we!

How then can abortion be wrong? After all, you abort early and spare the future child all future suffering and being sent to a possible temporary torture chamber anyways. So if God indeed abort’s life in the future through annihilation then abortion is morally superiorly right and Christians should promote it, not try to stop it. It is done for the utmost good!

Correct?

Ideas have consequences…

If Annihilationism is true, God cannot judge humanity for committing murder in any degree. How could murder be wrong? You are after all sparing one from an eternal hell or sending them to heaven faster. If God, due to his Love cannot dare endure seeing suffering – then why inflict any pain at all albeit only temporarily, then make them non-exist? Wouldn’t that make God equal to a sadist which several annihilationist leaders contend against in order to buttress their views?

Again, a life sentence demonstrates love and mercy as it is balanced with God’s justice - justice first to Who He is and next to whom He created. There is a reason Jesus wept in the Garden. There is a reason God pleads with humanity to return to Him. Great is the Love sent to save such a wretch like we and Taking the time to change us back into how God intends things to be.

Abortion is a great evil – not an act of sublime love to spare a possible child but rather something that result from sexual immorality either forced or consensual. God’s value of life is far greater than our own as He is the author of life itself. Humanity fails this test every the time as it seeks ways to devalue life through abortion, substance abuse, sexual immorality, hate, legalese, our strivings, wars… Our brand of human love is no way to measure God’s.

So which shows more Love and Mercy? – Life sentence – or extinction? Which of these two options nullifies God as being a God of the living, a God who takes back no promise, who say he always keeps his word performing it, and who reneges on no gift?

For the Lost – which shows more Mercy and Love? A Life sentence reaping what the sow according to the dominion they imposed in this life by their disdain for God proven within their heart?

The Universalist on the other hand, would contend that God would just let everybody in heaven to get around this. But God does not at all acquit the guilty – nor give peace to the wicked. Granting entry in to heaven does violence to the justice of God’s love that will not force his love upon one who hates or denies him. Such love would not change the guilty in the afterlife as such love of God would be viewed as a new and better means to abuse God’s mercy and love for their own gain just as it was proven on this earth – why – Isaiah 26:10 states why - as does other verses like 2 Peter 2:22 and Proverbs 26:11 illustrate. They refuse to behold the Majesty of God.

What does God do, God who is so great and awesome that He truly lives by his own Majestic standards, changes not, repeals not his word, does not take away life – what would he do?

He would make a place, a holding center first as Matt 25:41 indicates, then send His word to warn people of such a place, and change people, thru the offer of choice of Christ, not thru force, but rather by his offer which produces choice. The Lord grants ample patient time to each person even though he does not have too (Job 34:21, 22, 22, 23a), He still does grant time as that is how just and Holy and righteous He is to Himself first and then to others He made.

Then after such patient endurance, generation and proceeding generation, God calls each person to judgment after physical death (Heb 9:27). If found a child of the devil/world/darkness, cast into the place Isaiah 24:22 speaks of which points to the place Jesus spoke of in Matt 25:41 awaiting a day for the final declaration that makes all things right Rev 20:11-15, Rev 21:1-27, Rev 22:1-21.

If found in Christ such enter the true Kingdom of God finding eternal life with God which is revealed in John 17:3 – defined as Knowing the Lord in His full Majesty. Not a mere state of simply living forever – but defined as Knowing (completely) the Lord. Not my words or interpretation – But what Jesus said himself which defines his use of eternal life he referred to so often.

(see - Know from - ginosko 1097-Strongs)

I rather serve God who is the Rock, who will always remain true to Himself in all He does and has proven it to Himself first, than another who must bow to the whims of man.
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So the hard question to ask –is why didn’t the Lord wipe out into non-being?

That is an easy one - because it was not the time to do that yet.

Again, Sudsy – if God did not design human beings to be eternal, and if Adam and Eve never had sinned – when would they have died of old age?)

God foreknew what they would do so the answer to this question is irrelevant.

Okay, let’s say God does annihilate into non-existence due to being unable to endure forever seeing people in agonizing suffering

I know some say this but I prefer to say that God gives out a fair sentence based on His fair judgments that involves His complete character and after any form of punishment is given out (reap what we sow, no more, no less) then He terminates the sentence with destruction. Who knows how long or how short this sentence will take for each individual. After this there is no longer a reason for those to exist anymore and it is part of His plan to completely remove all traces of evil once and for all and demonstrate the total victory over all that is not good.

Correct?

Not in my view. The whole argument of us and God being on the same level regarding 'taking life' is quite a weak one, IMO. God did not give us the authority to take life but God grants life and can take it away as He determines.

So humanity being created in God’s image and likeness, we should be able to exterminate life solely on the basis of not wanting to see agonizing suffering.

Again, you are using this 'being made in God's image', to suit your purposes. We do not have the power to do what God alone can do. We are not gods.

If Annihilationism is true, God cannot judge humanity for committing murder in any degree.

Says you.

If God, due to his Love cannot dare endure seeing suffering – then why inflict any pain at all albeit only temporarily, then make them non-exist? Wouldn’t that make God equal to a sadist which several annihilationist leaders contend against in order to buttress their views?

There is a sentence that comes from a judgment and this must be kept according to God's way of justice. I believe God will be extremely fair and far beyond our concepts of mercy and love when He gives out sentencing. Although you want to make the big issue to be based on what is good for man and not God, I disagree that this is the one and only reason for the 'A' view. It is an issue that speaks of the character of God as fair, loving, just, merciful, etc, etc. I do not share your take on various scriptures and how you define the character of God and why He then must act accordingly. As I said before, I'm certainly glad that you are not God as you present Him to be from your interpretation of scripture.

So which shows more Love and Mercy? – Life sentence – or extinction?

Why not ask most people that question and see what your answer would be ? Be sure to tell them that the 'life sentence' you are speaking about is never ending torment in a lake of fire.

Anyway, I'm satisfied that there has been nothing yet posted on this thread that proves that eternal existence is for everyone.

So Sudsy, I see you just brush off everything I put forth so easily and not willing to even to discuss and explore. You seem to know all things and will not even bother to investigate to see if what I posted is bible based on truth or not. So I'll post what I posted on your other thread in response to you here:

Sudsy wrote:

but you are coming across to me as having some personal hang-up as well as an obsessive axe to grind about Hell. All I can suggest is you need to learn to Rest in Jesus - God knows what He is doing…

Another suggestion about what I need to do. I think at the point I see you giving it a 'Rest'', I will do likewise but so far, you show no sign of following your own suggestion.

I found rest in the Lord and have peace with God. From the tone of your comments this is something you need to come to terms with so you can be at peace. Your gifting from the Lord maybe that of an Evangelist and maybe that is why you seem deadest to motivate yourself to witness more through mirroring on others. An effective evangelist knows how to rest in the Lord and be at peace with God. Until that happens, letting go of whatever it is you have against God in any form of reason or logic, will cause you to be less effective witness, than one would who has come to terms with the Majesty of the Lord.

So we are called to speak to one another in truth guided by Christ’s love. Love is not blind tolerance just to get along. Sometimes love comes across blunt. So I’ll be blunt, in love toward you as a brother in Christ: I do not know you, nor do you know me. I do not know if you have come to this forum just to argue, win converts, or just to cause division and strife – that I do not know. If I judge you wrongly, I publically apologize in advance. From your continual harping on the subject of Hell – makes me suspicious that your motives are not the noblest.

Yes, I can be wrong about your motives but that is the truth that I see from your continual posting on this topic. This in turn causes me to respond to you at every turn you bring this subject up. I post the evidence from the bible, ask questions, as that is all I can do. I do not demand that you believe as I do regarding Hell. All I can do is to suggest how to check things out for yourself on this matter only if you so choose to do so.

On the Infinite Punishment Thread, you made demands as do the major proponents of traditional annihilationism do that demand all must bow the knee to their point of view. This creates strife between Christian brothers and sisters and where strife is – every evil work resides as the Apostle James wrote of n his letter. That should be a cause of concern to you about one of the fruits of your doctrine but for some reason it appears to escape notice. You continue to base your views solely on the reliance of men. As long as you persist – I have no other choice than to likewise respond.

My view is that Annihilationist Christian are not heretics but are brothers and sisters in Christ. We agree on the foundational truth of salvation thru Christ’s work on the cross. Our disagreement over the duration of Hell is not a fundamental doctrine and we can disagree on it with respect. I do respect traditional annihilationist Christians and have read their works – Fudge was the first back in the 1980 and 1990’s, others later on. I am not convinced of their logic as it is man centered and strays away into emotionalism and causes strife as well as used by the majority of bonafide religious cults. This is also a concern as to what tree this doctrine is grown from.

Annihilationism and its varied forms can be traced back to ancient Greek atomist philosophy as well as supports the humanistic views of humanism and atheism concerning the afterlife - so again another cause for concern. That is why I respond and will continue to do so. A tree is known by its fruit Jesus tells us. All I can do is question and suggest ways to test your doctrine. I do not demand you believe as I do about the duration of Hell, nor will I. Once you give this subject a rest – so will I.

...Remember Jesus reveals that the nature of punishment consists of reaping what one has sown. The Lord points this out in Rev 20:12-13a as judged, each one according to his works. Nowhere does the Lord say such judging leads to annihilation of being into non-existence. Instead it points to reaping what one has sown.
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