Choosing Which Eternal Destiny

[Sudsy]

Let's say that there are two possible eternal destinies for man (to avoid getting side-tracked) - either never ending life with God or never ending torment in the lake of fire.

For God to be impartial and just to grant every man the opportunity for eternal life, could/would God do this if each person does not receive an understanding of what these two destinies involve ?

For instance, if I were to have a pill that would save a person from on-going suffering and offered it to the person without telling them the consequence if they did not take the pill, would this be just ?

I am curious as to what some Christians believe is needful to understand regarding salvation to make it an acceptable choice of one of these two destinations.

[TallMan]

...
I am curious as to what some Christians believe is needful to understand regarding salvation to make it an acceptable choice of one of these two destinations.

We don't have to spend time on hypothetical questions, God has given us his word (and hebrew meanings) so that we can research, reason and know.

Eternal torment assumes that the soul of natural man is immortal. The bible says God alone has immortality, and those who believe his gospel. Unrepentant sinners die... first the body dies (ceases to be), then there is the second death for the soul in the consuming fire. If after a zillion years you are still writhing in agony you are not consumed.

The concept of eternal torment was "christianised" from ancient religions.

[Kurieuo]

Let's say that there are two possible eternal destinies for man (to avoid getting side-tracked) - either never ending life with God or never ending torment in the lake of fire.

For God to be impartial and just to grant every man the opportunity for eternal life, could/would God do this if each person does not receive an understanding of what these two destinies involve ?

For instance, if I were to have a pill that would save a person from on-going suffering and offered it to the person without telling them the consequence if they did not take the pill, would this be just ?

I am curious as to what some Christians believe is needful to understand regarding salvation to make it an acceptable choice of one of these two destinations.

Just curious. You still see this question as relevant if the consequence was annihilation?

[Sudsy]

Just curious. You still see this question as relevant if the consequence was annihilation?

Yes, I do. My understanding of a fair choice would be that the consequences of making that choice should be as clear as possible.

[TallMan]

...My understanding of a fair choice would be that the consequences of making that choice should be as clear as possible.

God's option cannot be properly understood unless you receive it:
"as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him ... For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God" (1 Cor. 2:9, 11)

So the best way to be clear is to make sure you receive that Spirit (see Acts 2 for details), then others will be ale to see it in you.
God will send you someone who has this if you need it, they will speak to you as the apostles did, then pray with you and baptise you, then you can grow within a church of others who all have it.

The alternative is to miss out on God's vision, his answers, love, joy and peace in this life, and the millenium, face up to your rejection resulting in bitterness and regret before a merciful extinguishing in the lake of fire.

Clear enough?

[Sudsy]

Clear enough?

No, not clear to me what you are getting at. What I am talking about is whether or not a person has had a fair choice to decide to accept the gift of eternal life if they have not also received the consequences of making that choice.

If someone offers me a million dollars and perhaps for some reason I am suspicious of having a million dollars and they do not also tell me that if I don't accept it that I will suffer some sort of pain for the rest of my existence, then is this a fair offer ? To me, this is a deceptive way of offering something as the truth about the consequence of my choice was not made clear.

If someone says to me that scripture says that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ then I have been presented with a choice of 'death' or 'eternal life'. But if this 'death' means never ending torment in hell, don't you think it would only be fair to know this up front ?

[B. W.]

Clear enough?

No, not clear to me what you are getting at. What I am talking about is whether or not a person has had a fair choice to decide to accept the gift of eternal life if they have not also received the consequences of making that choice.

If someone offers me a million dollars and perhaps for some reason I am suspicious of having a million dollars and they do not also tell me that if I don't accept it that I will suffer some sort of pain for the rest of my existence, then is this a fair offer ? To me, this is a deceptive way of offering something as the truth about the consequence of my choice was not made clear.

If someone says to me that scripture says that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ then I have been presented with a choice of 'death' or 'eternal life'. But if this 'death' means never ending torment in hell, don't you think it would only be fair to know this up front ?

Jesus did…

Luke 12:5 - But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Matthew 18:9 - And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Luke 16:22-23, So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24-26 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

Luke 16:27-31 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

According to Jesus - Some People will not listen…

Paul to Felix as well and what did Felix do?

Acts 24:22-25 - But when Felix heard these things, having more accurate knowledge of the Way, he adjourned the proceedings and said, "When Lysias the commander comes down, I will make a decision on your case." 23 So he commanded the centurion to keep Paul and to let him have liberty, and told him not to forbid any of his friends to provide for or visit him. 24 And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 25 Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, "Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you."

Acts 24:27 But after two years Porcius Festus succeeded Felix; and Felix, wanting to do the Jews a favor, left Paul bound.

Jesus said this…

John 15:18 - "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.”

It is not the message of hell or heaven or all the things Paul spoke to Felix about that saves people or motivates people to preach Sudsy – God’s word divides the wheat from the chaff. It is the Lord who Draws and Saves...

John 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

You should have kept this and your other new threads on the “Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins” thread.
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[Sudsy]

It is not the message of hell or heaven or all the things Paul spoke to Felix about that saves people or motivates people to preach Sudsy – God’s word divides the wheat from the chaff. It is the Lord who Draws and Saves...

No one is questioning if it is God who draws and saves. The point is whether or not a choice is made on the grounds of a clear understanding of the consequences of that choice. My own father, although I disagree with him on his view of never ending torment, did present the Gospel as a clear choice between eternal life with God or never ending torment in hell. He was taught that and he preached it. I respect that.

I believe that if never ending torment is true and if the consequences of choice is not made clear by those presenting the Gospel, then God will make it clear prior to sentencing. I don't leave out the possibilty that this can occur after the first death. Just because scripture says after death comes the judgment, does not prove anything about when this judgment will occur. For those who have never heard or for those who have not heard adequately, I believe a just God would never send anyone to never ending torment without a clear choice that identifies the consequences of that choice.

Regarding judgment that Paul preached to Felix, I wish we knew exactly what Paul preached on this. It is the sentence passed on this judgment that is not clear. We do not have any preaching on eternal torment by any of the apostles in their writings.

You should have kept this and your other new threads on the “Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins” thread.

I don't mean to be rude but why do you keep giving me advice on where I should make posts. I explained my reason for separating these. You don't have to participate here if you don't want to.

[B. W.]

It is not the message of hell or heaven or all the things Paul spoke to Felix about that saves people or motivates people to preach Sudsy – God’s word divides the wheat from the chaff. It is the Lord who Draws and Saves...

No one is questioning if it is God who draws and saves. The point is whether or not a choice is made on the grounds of a clear understanding of the consequences of that choice. My own father, although I disagree with him on his view of never ending torment, did present the Gospel as a clear choice between eternal life with God or never ending torment in hell. He was taught that and he preached it. I respect that.

I believe that if never ending torment is true and if the consequences of choice is not made clear by those presenting the Gospel, then God will make it clear prior to sentencing. I don't leave out the possibilty that this can occur after the first death. Just because scripture says after death comes the judgment, does not prove anything about when this judgment will occur. For those who have never heard or for those who have not heard adequately, I believe a just God would never send anyone to never ending torment without a clear choice that identifies the consequences of that choice.

Regarding judgment that Paul preached to Felix, I wish we knew exactly what Paul preached on this. It is the sentence passed on this judgment that is not clear. We do not have any preaching on eternal torment by any of the apostles in their writings.

You should have kept this and your other new threads on the “Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins” thread.

I don't mean to be rude but why do you keep giving me advice on where I should make posts. I explained my reason for separating these. You don't have to participate here if you don't want to.

It would have simply fit the topic there as well - that's all.

Please do not take this as mean spirited or snarky as I am not intending this to come across that way but you are coming across to me as having some personal hang-up as well as an obsessive axe to grind about Hell. All I can suggest is you need to learn to Rest in Jesus - God knows what He is doing…

We present the gospel, however the Holy Spirit leads us and to whom, that is the best way. Sometimes we just sow gospel seeds into people’s lives by our actions, manner of life, or direct witnessing that later on another harvest’s upon. Other times, we are permitted to harvest.

Concerning Acts 24 – Felix knew of the Way (Christianity) more than others. What Luke describes Paul saying to Felix is easily deduced from Paul’s own writings. What Paul is meant by The Judgment to Come is found in Paul's own letters. The gospel truths Luke records Paul sharing on, Felix understood these because Felix knew of the Way more than most (Romans 2:5-6 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10).
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[Sudsy]

but you are coming across to me as having some personal hang-up as well as an obsessive axe to grind about Hell. All I can suggest is you need to learn to Rest in Jesus - God knows what He is doing…

Another suggestion about what I need to do. I think at the point I see you giving it a 'Rest'', I will do likewise but so far, you show no sign of following your own suggestion.

We present the gospel, however the Holy Spirit leads us and to whom, that is the best way. Sometimes we just sow gospel seeds into people’s lives by our actions, manner of life, or direct witnessing that later on another harvest’s upon. Other times, we are permitted to harvest.

And in so doing, if never ending torment is never mentioned, then you consider this to be a fair presentation of choice ? Sorry, I don't. To me, it is a very deceptive way to present the Gospel if one believes in never ending torment.

Concerning Acts 24 – Felix knew of the Way (Christianity) more than others. What Luke describes Paul saying to Felix is easily deduced from Paul’s own writings. What Paul is meant by The Judgment to Come is found in Paul's own letters. The gospel truths Luke records Paul sharing on, Felix understood these because Felix knew of the Way more than most (Romans 2:5-6 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Again, reading into the text to form a deduction. Note also the Romans text talks of a 'day of wrath' not a never ending period of time.

I don't have any 'axe to grind' regarding hell but I take exception to someone insisting that we view things from a certain understanding of what scriptures say. There are some in the traditional, annihilational and universal points of view that take that approach at times and IMO, we don't need to. However, I do think this topic needs addressing today from all perspectives and that we should not just hide away and pretend it is not important.

If all of us are choosing our eternal destiny then we certainly should be quite clear on what we believe the consequences of those choices amount to. I don't have a problem with those who believe in never ending torment and preach/share it. I also think that those with an 'A' view should be clear about what 'death' means regarding the 'second death'. I'm just saying why would we not be upfront with these extremely important particulars to allow for a wise choice ?

When I was a young person, it was preached at me that someday my close, unsaved friends and relatives would be pointing their finger at me and saying 'why did you not tell me of this terrible place of never ending torment ? ' and 'how much you must have hated me, why ?' (those kinds of questions). Ezekiel 33:8-11 was often used to tell us of our responsibility -

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Yet, it seems today that to talk about never ending torment with an unsaved person is just too much of a turn off. But to not speak of it is to not give any warning of this destiny. So, I ask, is this a fair way to share the Gospel ? I ask myself, if I was unsaved is this what I would want others to do unto me ? Would I not want to know the consequences of my decision to follow Jesus or not ?

That is why I don't think we can just shrug off this topic regardless of how uncomfortable about it we feel.

[B. W.]

but you are coming across to me as having some personal hang-up as well as an obsessive axe to grind about Hell. All I can suggest is you need to learn to Rest in Jesus - God knows what He is doing…

Another suggestion about what I need to do. I think at the point I see you giving it a 'Rest'', I will do likewise but so far, you show no sign of following your own suggestion.

I found rest in the Lord and have peace with God. From the tone of your comments this is something you need to come to terms with so you can be at peace. Your gifting from the Lord maybe that of an Evangelist and maybe that is why you seem deadest to motivate yourself to witness more through mirroring on others. An effective evangelist knows how to rest in the Lord and be at peace with God. Until that happens, letting go of whatever it is you have against God in any form of reason or logic, will cause you to be less effective witness, than one would who has come to terms with the Majesty of the Lord.

So we are called to speak to one another in truth guided by Christ’s love. Love is not blind tolerance just to get along. Sometimes love comes across blunt. So I’ll be blunt, in love toward you as a brother in Christ: I do not know you, nor do you know me. I do not know if you have come to this forum just to argue, win converts, or just to cause division and strife – that I do not know. If I judge you wrongly, I publically apologize in advance. From your continual harping on the subject of Hell – makes me suspicious that your motives are not the noblest.

Yes, I can be wrong about your motives but that is the truth that I see from your continual posting on this topic. This in turn causes me to respond to you at every turn you bring this subject up. I post the evidence from the bible, ask questions, as that is all I can do. I do not demand that you believe as I do regarding Hell. All I can do is to suggest how to check things out for yourself on this matter only if you so choose to do so.

On the Infinite Punishment Thread, you made demands as do the major proponents of traditional annihilationism do that demand all must bow the knee to their point of view. This creates strife between Christian brothers and sisters and where strife is – every evil work resides as the Apostle James wrote of n his letter. That should be a cause of concern to you about one of the fruits of your doctrine but for some reason it appears to escape notice. You continue to base your views solely on the reliance of men. As long as you persist – I have no other choice than to likewise respond.

My view is that Annihilationist Christian are not heretics but are brothers and sisters in Christ. We agree on the foundational truth of salvation thru Christ’s work on the cross. Our disagreement over the duration of Hell is not a fundamental doctrine and we can disagree on it with respect. I do respect traditional annihilationist Christians and have read their works – Fudge was the first back in the 1980 and 1990’s, others later on. I am not convinced of their logic as it is man centered and strays away into emotionalism and causes strife as well as used by the majority of bonafide religious cults. This is also a concern as to what tree this doctrine is grown from.

Annihilationism and its varied forms can be traced back to ancient Greek atomist philosophy as well as supports the humanistic views of humanism and atheism concerning the afterlife - so again another cause for concern. That is why I respond and will continue to do so. A tree is known by its fruit Jesus tells us. All I can do is question and suggest ways to test your doctrine. I do not demand you believe as I do about the duration of Hell, nor will I. Once you give this subject a rest – so will I.

....Yet, it seems today that to talk about never ending torment with an unsaved person is just too much of a turn off. But to not speak of it is to not give any warning of this destiny. So, I ask, is this a fair way to share the Gospel ? I ask myself, if I was unsaved is this what I would want others to do unto me ? Would I not want to know the consequences of my decision to follow Jesus or not ? That is why I don't think we can just shrug off this topic regardless of how uncomfortable about it we feel.

Not really a turn off - just mention Jesus’ name and that is enough to turn off people no matter what the positive comments made about Him and the gospel. This is due to the nature of Sin and denial.

A Fair way to share the gospel is through the power and influence of the Holy Spirit - there really is no other way... This comes by knowing who God is and resting in Him. This Resting in Him creates increasing Faith as it Rests in knowing God knows best how use you and I howsoever He wills to reach the lost.

I will make a suggestion, if you witness to a waiter or waitress – always leave a 90 to 120 percent Tip for the total meal. Ask servers and they’ll tell you Christians are tightwad tippers come Sunday and Saturday so make up for this. Always ask if you can pray for whatever their personal need may be too, family member, marriage, school and pray there with them. Leave a big tip. You maybe surprised at how the Lord moves…
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[Sudsy]

but you are coming across to me as having some personal hang-up as well as an obsessive axe to grind about Hell. All I can suggest is you need to learn to Rest in Jesus - God knows what He is doing…

Another suggestion about what I need to do. I think at the point I see you giving it a 'Rest'', I will do likewise but so far, you show no sign of following your own suggestion.

I found rest in the Lord and have peace with God. From the tone of your comments this is something you need to come to terms with so you can be at peace. Your gifting from the Lord maybe that of an Evangelist and maybe that is why you seem deadest to motivate yourself to witness more through mirroring on others. An effective evangelist knows how to rest in the Lord and be at peace with God. Until that happens, letting go of whatever it is you have against God in any form of reason or logic, will cause you to be less effective witness, than one would who has come to terms with the Majesty of the Lord.

B.W. I see I touched a nerve again. When I do, you make this kind of response. This has nothing to do with my witness and it seems to be your way of changing the subject. Suggesting I have something against God because I don't agree with your reasonings, well that is getting pretty desperate. One thing you have not conceded since we started is that your view is an interpretation of who God is and what scriptures are saying, just as I have one also. So, if I disagree with you, I am disagreeing with God. Wow !

So we are called to speak to one another in truth guided by Christ’s love. Love is not blind tolerance just to get along. Sometimes love comes across blunt. So I’ll be blunt, in love toward you as a brother in Christ: I do not know you, nor do you know me. I do not know if you have come to this forum just to argue, win converts, or just to cause division and strife – that I do not know. If I judge you wrongly, I publically apologize in advance. From your continual harping on the subject of Hell – makes me suspicious that your motives are not the noblest.

See you say you don't know me and then go ahead and say negative things and follow with an apology as if this allows you to be justified. Neat trick. Let me try it - it would seem you see yourself as the master teacher here with advanced insights and methods and interpretations beyond others and when people disagree with you get upset. But if I judge you wrongly, I publically apologize in advance. I say this in love. That 'blunt' love you speak about.

Yes, I can be wrong about your motives but that is the truth that I see from your continual posting on this topic. This in turn causes me to respond to you at every turn you bring this subject up. I post the evidence from the bible, ask questions, as that is all I can do. I do not demand that you believe as I do regarding Hell. All I can do is to suggest how to check things out for yourself on this matter only if you so choose to do so.

Face it, you don't like anyone disagreeing with you. You make this sound as if you are so innocent but review your posts and it is obvious that you demand answers, insist on your methods of study, make snide remarks of other beliefs, mis-represent what others believe, etc. We all can read so you are not fooling anyone.

On the Infinite Punishment Thread, you made demands as do the major proponents of traditional annihilationism do that demand all must bow the knee to their point of view. This creates strife between Christian brothers and sisters and where strife is – every evil work resides as the Apostle James wrote of n his letter. That should be a cause of concern to you about one of the fruits of your doctrine but for some reason it appears to escape notice. You continue to base your views solely on the reliance of men. As long as you persist – I have no other choice than to likewise respond.

Again, a different view than yours is creating strife. I thought you were at rest and at peace but you don't post like it. Where have I demanded that 'all must bow the knee to their point of view' ? Show me one place. I'll let the facts stand for themselves in the posts made whether or not this view is based 'solely on the reliance of men'. I know this is what you want everyone to believe but I don't think readers are that gullible.

My view is that Annihilationist Christian are not heretics but are brothers and sisters in Christ. We agree on the foundational truth of salvation thru Christ’s work on the cross. Our disagreement over the duration of Hell is not a fundamental doctrine and we can disagree on it with respect. I do respect traditional annihilationist Christians and have read their works – Fudge was the first back in the 1980 and 1990’s, others later on. I am not convinced of their logic as it is man centered and strays away into emotionalism and causes strife as well as used by the majority of bonafide religious cults. This is also a concern as to what tree this doctrine is grown from.

More slams - emotionalism, causing strife, man centered, like cults. You said 'we can disagree on it with respect'. This is what you call respect ? Whew, I wonder what it is like when you are really disrespectful.

Annihilationism and its varied forms can be traced back to ancient Greek atomist philosophy as well as supports the humanistic views of humanism and atheism concerning the afterlife - so again another cause for concern. That is why I respond and will continue to do so. A tree is known by its fruit Jesus tells us. All I can do is question and suggest ways to test your doctrine. I do not demand you believe as I do about the duration of Hell, nor will I. Once you give this subject a rest – so will I.

Not satisfied yet, more slams. I guess you just can't help yourself. I could give some history on the traditional view that is quite negative also but there is not much point adding to your strife.

....Yet, it seems today that to talk about never ending torment with an unsaved person is just too much of a turn off. But to not speak of it is to not give any warning of this destiny. So, I ask, is this a fair way to share the Gospel ? I ask myself, if I was unsaved is this what I would want others to do unto me ? Would I not want to know the consequences of my decision to follow Jesus or not ? That is why I don't think we can just shrug off this topic regardless of how uncomfortable about it we feel.

Not really a turn off - just mention Jesus’ name and that is enough to turn off people no matter what the positive comments made about Him and the gospel. This is due to the nature of Sin and denial.

A Fair way to share the gospel is through the power and influence of the Holy Spirit - there really is no other way... This comes by knowing who God is and resting in Him. This Resting in Him creates increasing Faith as it Rests in knowing God knows best how use you and I howsoever He wills to reach the lost.

So, you just are able to dismiss the point of having a clear choice that includes consequences. I gather what you are indicating is that if you think the Holy Spirit is not leading you into explaining the consequence of rejecting Christ, than you consider this to be an adequate explanation of the Gospel. I guess we will someday know whether or not we were lead by the Holy Spirit or some other source. I tend to think that God will make a choice quite clear before sentencing anyone to an eternal destiny of endless torment.

I will make a suggestion, if you witness to a waiter or waitress – always leave a 90 to 120 percent Tip for the total meal. Ask servers and they’ll tell you Christians are tightwad tippers come Sunday and Saturday so make up for this. Always ask if you can pray for whatever their personal need may be too, family member, marriage, school and pray there with them. Leave a big tip. You maybe surprised at how the Lord moves…

Hmmmm, I thought we were to be lead by the Spirit in how we go about being a witness. Which is it ?
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As long as you persist – I have no other choice than to likewise respond.

You always have a choice. And I've asked before if you are ready to quit repeating much of the same stuff over and over. If it is the last word you want, have it.