Evidence for God from Science

Sudsy wrote: ...
I am curious as to what some Christians believe is needful to understand regarding salvation to make it an acceptable choice of one of these two destinations.

Sudsy wrote:Let's say that there are two possible eternal destinies for man (to avoid getting side-tracked) - either never ending life with God or never ending torment in the lake of fire.

For God to be impartial and just to grant every man the opportunity for eternal life, could/would God do this if each person does not receive an understanding of what these two destinies involve ?

For instance, if I were to have a pill that would save a person from on-going suffering and offered it to the person without telling them the consequence if they did not take the pill, would this be just ?

I am curious as to what some Christians believe is needful to understand regarding salvation to make it an acceptable choice of one of these two destinations.

Just curious. You still see this question as relevant if the consequence was annihilation?

Sudsy wrote:...My understanding of a fair choice would be that the consequences of making that choice should be as clear as possible.

Clear enough?

Sudsy wrote:

Clear enough?

No, not clear to me what you are getting at. What I am talking about is whether or not a person has had a fair choice to decide to accept the gift of eternal life if they have not also received the consequences of making that choice.

If someone offers me a million dollars and perhaps for some reason I am suspicious of having a million dollars and they do not also tell me that if I don't accept it that I will suffer some sort of pain for the rest of my existence, then is this a fair offer ? To me, this is a deceptive way of offering something as the truth about the consequence of my choice was not made clear.

If someone says to me that scripture says that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ then I have been presented with a choice of 'death' or 'eternal life'. But if this 'death' means never ending torment in hell, don't you think it would only be fair to know this up front ?

It is not the message of hell or heaven or all the things Paul spoke to Felix about that saves people or motivates people to preach Sudsy – God’s word divides the wheat from the chaff. It is the Lord who Draws and Saves...

You should have kept this and your other new threads on the “Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins” thread.

Sudsy wrote:

It is not the message of hell or heaven or all the things Paul spoke to Felix about that saves people or motivates people to preach Sudsy – God’s word divides the wheat from the chaff. It is the Lord who Draws and Saves...

No one is questioning if it is God who draws and saves. The point is whether or not a choice is made on the grounds of a clear understanding of the consequences of that choice. My own father, although I disagree with him on his view of never ending torment, did present the Gospel as a clear choice between eternal life with God or never ending torment in hell. He was taught that and he preached it. I respect that.

I believe that if never ending torment is true and if the consequences of choice is not made clear by those presenting the Gospel, then God will make it clear prior to sentencing. I don't leave out the possibilty that this can occur after the first death. Just because scripture says after death comes the judgment, does not prove anything about when this judgment will occur. For those who have never heard or for those who have not heard adequately, I believe a just God would never send anyone to never ending torment without a clear choice that identifies the consequences of that choice.

Regarding judgment that Paul preached to Felix, I wish we knew exactly what Paul preached on this. It is the sentence passed on this judgment that is not clear. We do not have any preaching on eternal torment by any of the apostles in their writings.

You should have kept this and your other new threads on the “Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins” thread.

I don't mean to be rude but why do you keep giving me advice on where I should make posts. I explained my reason for separating these. You don't have to participate here if you don't want to.

but you are coming across to me as having some personal hang-up as well as an obsessive axe to grind about Hell. All I can suggest is you need to learn to Rest in Jesus - God knows what He is doing…

We present the gospel, however the Holy Spirit leads us and to whom, that is the best way. Sometimes we just sow gospel seeds into people’s lives by our actions, manner of life, or direct witnessing that later on another harvest’s upon. Other times, we are permitted to harvest.

Concerning Acts 24 – Felix knew of the Way (Christianity) more than others. What Luke describes Paul saying to Felix is easily deduced from Paul’s own writings. What Paul is meant by The Judgment to Come is found in Paul's own letters. The gospel truths Luke records Paul sharing on, Felix understood these because Felix knew of the Way more than most (Romans 2:5-6 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Sudsy wrote:

but you are coming across to me as having some personal hang-up as well as an obsessive axe to grind about Hell. All I can suggest is you need to learn to Rest in Jesus - God knows what He is doing…

Another suggestion about what I need to do. I think at the point I see you giving it a 'Rest'', I will do likewise but so far, you show no sign of following your own suggestion.

Sudsy wrote: ....Yet, it seems today that to talk about never ending torment with an unsaved person is just too much of a turn off. But to not speak of it is to not give any warning of this destiny. So, I ask, is this a fair way to share the Gospel ? I ask myself, if I was unsaved is this what I would want others to do unto me ? Would I not want to know the consequences of my decision to follow Jesus or not ? That is why I don't think we can just shrug off this topic regardless of how uncomfortable about it we feel.

B. W. wrote:

Sudsy wrote:

but you are coming across to me as having some personal hang-up as well as an obsessive axe to grind about Hell. All I can suggest is you need to learn to Rest in Jesus - God knows what He is doing…

Another suggestion about what I need to do. I think at the point I see you giving it a 'Rest'', I will do likewise but so far, you show no sign of following your own suggestion.

I found rest in the Lord and have peace with God. From the tone of your comments this is something you need to come to terms with so you can be at peace. Your gifting from the Lord maybe that of an Evangelist and maybe that is why you seem deadest to motivate yourself to witness more through mirroring on others. An effective evangelist knows how to rest in the Lord and be at peace with God. Until that happens, letting go of whatever it is you have against God in any form of reason or logic, will cause you to be less effective witness, than one would who has come to terms with the Majesty of the Lord.

B.W. I see I touched a nerve again. When I do, you make this kind of response. This has nothing to do with my witness and it seems to be your way of changing the subject. Suggesting I have something against God because I don't agree with your reasonings, well that is getting pretty desperate. One thing you have not conceded since we started is that your view is an interpretation of who God is and what scriptures are saying, just as I have one also. So, if I disagree with you, I am disagreeing with God. Wow !

So we are called to speak to one another in truth guided by Christ’s love. Love is not blind tolerance just to get along. Sometimes love comes across blunt. So I’ll be blunt, in love toward you as a brother in Christ: I do not know you, nor do you know me. I do not know if you have come to this forum just to argue, win converts, or just to cause division and strife – that I do not know. If I judge you wrongly, I publically apologize in advance. From your continual harping on the subject of Hell – makes me suspicious that your motives are not the noblest.

See you say you don't know me and then go ahead and say negative things and follow with an apology as if this allows you to be justified. Neat trick. Let me try it - it would seem you see yourself as the master teacher here with advanced insights and methods and interpretations beyond others and when people disagree with you get upset. But if I judge you wrongly, I publically apologize in advance. I say this in love. That 'blunt' love you speak about.

Yes, I can be wrong about your motives but that is the truth that I see from your continual posting on this topic. This in turn causes me to respond to you at every turn you bring this subject up. I post the evidence from the bible, ask questions, as that is all I can do. I do not demand that you believe as I do regarding Hell. All I can do is to suggest how to check things out for yourself on this matter only if you so choose to do so.

Face it, you don't like anyone disagreeing with you. You make this sound as if you are so innocent but review your posts and it is obvious that you demand answers, insist on your methods of study, make snide remarks of other beliefs, mis-represent what others believe, etc. We all can read so you are not fooling anyone.

On the Infinite Punishment Thread, you made demands as do the major proponents of traditional annihilationism do that demand all must bow the knee to their point of view. This creates strife between Christian brothers and sisters and where strife is – every evil work resides as the Apostle James wrote of n his letter. That should be a cause of concern to you about one of the fruits of your doctrine but for some reason it appears to escape notice. You continue to base your views solely on the reliance of men. As long as you persist – I have no other choice than to likewise respond.

Again, a different view than yours is creating strife. I thought you were at rest and at peace but you don't post like it. Where have I demanded that 'all must bow the knee to their point of view' ? Show me one place. I'll let the facts stand for themselves in the posts made whether or not this view is based 'solely on the reliance of men'. I know this is what you want everyone to believe but I don't think readers are that gullible.

My view is that Annihilationist Christian are not heretics but are brothers and sisters in Christ. We agree on the foundational truth of salvation thru Christ’s work on the cross. Our disagreement over the duration of Hell is not a fundamental doctrine and we can disagree on it with respect. I do respect traditional annihilationist Christians and have read their works – Fudge was the first back in the 1980 and 1990’s, others later on. I am not convinced of their logic as it is man centered and strays away into emotionalism and causes strife as well as used by the majority of bonafide religious cults. This is also a concern as to what tree this doctrine is grown from.

More slams - emotionalism, causing strife, man centered, like cults. You said 'we can disagree on it with respect'. This is what you call respect ? Whew, I wonder what it is like when you are really disrespectful.

Annihilationism and its varied forms can be traced back to ancient Greek atomist philosophy as well as supports the humanistic views of humanism and atheism concerning the afterlife - so again another cause for concern. That is why I respond and will continue to do so. A tree is known by its fruit Jesus tells us. All I can do is question and suggest ways to test your doctrine. I do not demand you believe as I do about the duration of Hell, nor will I. Once you give this subject a rest – so will I.

Not satisfied yet, more slams. I guess you just can't help yourself. I could give some history on the traditional view that is quite negative also but there is not much point adding to your strife.

Sudsy wrote: ....Yet, it seems today that to talk about never ending torment with an unsaved person is just too much of a turn off. But to not speak of it is to not give any warning of this destiny. So, I ask, is this a fair way to share the Gospel ? I ask myself, if I was unsaved is this what I would want others to do unto me ? Would I not want to know the consequences of my decision to follow Jesus or not ? That is why I don't think we can just shrug off this topic regardless of how uncomfortable about it we feel.

Not really a turn off - just mention Jesus’ name and that is enough to turn off people no matter what the positive comments made about Him and the gospel. This is due to the nature of Sin and denial.

A Fair way to share the gospel is through the power and influence of the Holy Spirit - there really is no other way... This comes by knowing who God is and resting in Him. This Resting in Him creates increasing Faith as it Rests in knowing God knows best how use you and I howsoever He wills to reach the lost.

So, you just are able to dismiss the point of having a clear choice that includes consequences. I gather what you are indicating is that if you think the Holy Spirit is not leading you into explaining the consequence of rejecting Christ, than you consider this to be an adequate explanation of the Gospel. I guess we will someday know whether or not we were lead by the Holy Spirit or some other source. I tend to think that God will make a choice quite clear before sentencing anyone to an eternal destiny of endless torment.

I will make a suggestion, if you witness to a waiter or waitress – always leave a 90 to 120 percent Tip for the total meal. Ask servers and they’ll tell you Christians are tightwad tippers come Sunday and Saturday so make up for this. Always ask if you can pray for whatever their personal need may be too, family member, marriage, school and pray there with them. Leave a big tip. You maybe surprised at how the Lord moves…

Hmmmm, I thought we were to be lead by the Spirit in how we go about being a witness. Which is it ?
-
-
-

As long as you persist – I have no other choice than to likewise respond.