Evidence for God from Science

Hi all, just a question I wonder from the Christian perspective, A simple question.

Is morality logical?

Now I am not asking if following morality is logical, but is morality a system of actions, logical constructed.

I.E. is the system of morality designed by god logical?

A simple answer-

Yes, if you believe in the Christian worldview. There's a reason why a huge number of secularists believe in morality even though it doesn't work without a God.

silverspirit2001 wrote:Hi all, just a question I wonder from the Christian perspective, A simple question.

Is morality logical?

Now I am not asking if following morality is logical, but is morality a system of actions, logical constructed.

I.E. is the system of morality designed by god logical?

Yes it is.. Consider homosexuality and it's effect on health. Consider the laws such as loving your neighbor as yourself and then compare it to chaotic societies who don't, and many more...

Logic has at least two foundational elements. One is external and depends upon the premises that a logical system rests upon and the other is internal and measured by the internal consistency.

Morality from a Christian perspective can rest upon several different premises depending upon what a Christian believes to be true about the nature and character of God, the giving of a moral code or guidelines, and what moral code or guidelines we currently live under (sometimes called dispensationalism or covenantal theology, to name two.)

Where critics of Christianity generally approach this is to attempt to present morality under Christianity as illogical by attempting to define morality by their own terms (or different premises than Christianity assumes) and then judging Christianity by these assumed terms. There's little benefit in doing so as that confuses terms and leads to talking past one another.

Personally, I don't believe Christianity ultimately is a system of morals. Defining it as such, just returns to a system of legalism which while present in the Old Testament, has been fulfilled by Christ. I believe as Christians we walk now on the basis of relationship and it is that relationship with God through Christ that motivates us to please Him.

So, the answer as to whether a system of morality designed by God begs a few questions that have to be addressed first.

1. Does God exist?
2. If God exists has he designed a system of morals that is exclusive and absolute to all humans, cultures and timeframes?
3. If so, what are those morals?
4. Is so, what is the means that God has revealed those morals?

My answers to these questions, are.

God exists.
There is absolute truth.
Morals and truth are revealed ultimately in Jesus Christ. The Bible points toward Christ. Old Testament moral codes have been fulfilled ultimately in Christ and Christians now can, if they choose to, walk in a personal relationship with Christ.

That's probably enough for now.

Rather than just responding to these assertions (which you're welcome to as well) why don't you go ahead silverspirit too and positively assert your premises.

What is your system of Morality? What does it rest upon? Is it competely logical in terms of the premises upon which it rests? Is it fully internally valid with no contradictions? If, as I believe your profile indicates, you are an atheist, why should there be any morals asserted in any context and why shouldn't we descend to the lowest common denominator and embrace Nihilism?

Fair enough?

Hi silverspirit200!

(An atheist you say)…Welcome to the forum of the lord my child…I pray your soul finds….peace.

Darn it, it’s that pesky smiley glitch again…I’ve sent in a request to have it fixed but supposedly the issue is quite complex.

Welcome silverspirit200! That’s better…

I agree with the guy’s here but I think two different issues are being discussed.

You have God’s laws, such as the ones written in the bible (old testament). Individuals who want to have a relationship with God no longer have to follow the old testament Laws given the condition that they accept Jesus as God and follow Him (His example and guidance).

But we also have the laws God wrote in his creations heart (so that we all know the moral standard God wants us to aim for), aka, our conscience. Each persons current character/moral standard can be different. That is not what’s important, each person will feel varying degrees of Godly righteousness or Corruption in their heart/soul given the reaction they give to an event (what God would do gives them a feeling of Godly righteousness on the inside, what Satan would do gives them a feeling of Corruption on the inside). God’s goal is to get a person to move closer to His character so that they will accept Him and love who he is. Say we have a male child that was abused by his mother, he grows up and despises all women and sees them as hateful, selfish, heartless animals that only treat him nice sometimes because he has grown into a strong man and they fear him. As a man, he finds comfort in abusing women before he administers justice, killing them for the horrible pain they inflict on male children, one woman after another, he has killed many and he’s about to do it again. It’s the same routine, she feels the pain her kind caused him, and now it’s time to stop her from giving birth to children and abusing them just because they are unfortunate enough to be born a male.

She cries and pleads for her life but all he remembers is that her kind never shows mercy. He takes his knife and thrust it towards the woman as she yells out in a loud voice. Please, she said, I have a son, he needs his mother!…The man stops…He knows what it means to be abused and in pain…He thinks to himself…(I wanted her to stop hurting me, and want me….She want’s to live for her son, maybe she is different)…He looks at the woman as she cries…(LIES!)…Then his knife plunges into her deceitful heart….(no one needs a mother).

The man sinned and his morals are completely distorted compared to the norm. But, he stopped and considered the possibility that some women may want their sons. And that was the first time, just for a moment, he was about to have compassion and let her live, for a moment, he embraced one of God’s attributes. That was the right direction, maybe next time he will lean toward more of God’s moral attributes and one day, with God’s help, he maybe free of the curse on his life as God draws him closer. The man may go to jail and be put to death, and it would be a fair sentence, but he could still live with God.

God tells us, through the bible as well as with personal guidance, how to conduct ourselves when we feel the influence of various moral actions. But God’s moral laws and character is written in the heart of all men and women and those laws are not something you live by when you become a Christian. God gave his moral laws to all men and women and we are all influenced by His laws every second of every day, from the time we are born to the time we die. Of coarse, Satan has his part in this too, humans accept the knowledge of Satan’s moral code when they sin (garden of Eden story). So we know both good and evil. There are effects caused by every right or wrong action we take and on many levels. Effects on the inside of us as well as the outside, the effects our actions have on others, on the inside and outside, the effect on God and the world etc.

It all get’s quite complex and I am still learning but all of this is not really what’s important at all, I just like to know these things as it helps me to minister more effectively. As Bart said, it’s all about following Jesus…that’s the bottom line. Accepting Him and Becoming like Him is what’s important..

Enjoy your time on the forum silverspirit200!

Morality isn't the way people act. It is a prescription for the way things ought to be. Every prescription has a prescriber.

I.E. is the system of morality designed by god logical?

That depends again how you are defining morality, and which "system" (yes there is more than one) you are talking about.

Here is what i learned through being Christian about morality.

My answer would be yes that morality is absolutely logical in the way that one can logically make an action that serves for a greater good. For example if i have found THE most efficient way of doing a particular action and it is proven ( again this is an example) then the matter of this method as being the best becomes FACT. Now i ask you which method is the best for asking a person for having a lick of their ice-cream?
1) Asking him/her in a calm tone and with respect, while also considering the possibility of a "no" and accepting it ( as that comes with respect)
2) Snatching it off their hands and cursing them for having it and you not.

Which way is the best? You have to understand MORALITY is based on REALITY. which way is life lived the best? Which method is the best for doing any act?

If you say lying could also be a way ..well yes! But is it the best way? Are you going to get the same reaction? What happens if he/she finds out? Are you always going to get away with it? Remember that lying does have its consequences such as breaking trust. You have to understand that some actions create perversion and other actions create justice. The same way that these actions of perversion lead to a life of chaos and just actions lead to a self controlled life.

I hope that helps.

I appreciate everyone's response, but I think you guys are attempting to answer a question for which we don't have enough info from the one asking.

yeah i guess, hopefully silverspirit responds soon LOL

By definition morality means.

- accepted moral standards: standards of conduct that are generally accepted as right or proper.

- how right or wrong something is: the rightness or wrongness of something as judged by accepted moral standards.

- virtuous behavior: conduct that is in accord with accepted moral standards.

Silverspirit2001 said…

silverspirit2001 wrote: Now I am not asking if following morality is logical, but is morality a system of actions, logical constructed.

I.E. is the system of morality designed by god logical?

The short answer would be yes….As shown in my example, it was intentionally made by God and based on the facts he knows about his creation, given as an aid to help us know his way regardless of our knowledge of Him. No matter what, we can always choose to act as he would….

But what a person knows matters, if we know what Jesus requires then we must choose to accept or reject Him before our life on this earth ends. If one does not know what Jesus requires, they still have the knowledge of good and evil in their heart. They can still desire the good above the evil and choose to be as much like Jesus as they can. And that is good enough for Jesus given that they do not know what is written in the bible.

Hi jlay!

I’m just curious, you said….

jlay wrote:

I.E. is the system of morality designed by god logical?

That depends again how you are defining morality, and which "system" (yes there is more than one) you are talking about.

Are you saying that God claims ownership of more than one (the good things)?

Davis,

What I'm trying to get at is what is the real reason behind the question. What is this person trying to understand? Remember people have a lot of ideas of what constitutes morality. Subjective vs. Objective. Absolute vs. relative.

The question itself is problematic. "Is the system designed by God logical?"
What is logic? Are you aware things can be logical and still be wrong? Just because it is logical doesn't mean it is valid.
Secondly, which system is he speaking of?

Even God has not dealt with all people the same way. He specifically selected Israel and made covenant with them. So is an ancient Israelite being immoral when they eat pork? Is a non-Israelite?
So, is this question asking about universal objective morality, or particualar (local) morality?

Is God being immoral when He orders the stoning of a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath? The skeptic looks at this from their perspective and understanding of the words, and then attempts to confine God into those boundaries. These creates an alleged contradiction in their minds. And often results in arguments and bickering, when the fact is we aren't even on the same wave length when it comes to using these terms. Well, if we don't deal with that, the this skeptic is not going to have a proper understanding of what we mean when we discuss morality. So, what is the point in trying to say that it is logical, unless we address these underlying issues.

So, is the covenant with Israel and the accompanying moral code logical? I would say if someone is coming from a secular framework then much if not most of it is not logical to them.

I get you Jlay….

Concerning the old testament, Bart and I have said that it is not necessary to follow it…

Canuckster1127 wrote:Personally, I don't believe Christianity ultimately is a system of morals. Defining it as such, just returns to a system of legalism which while present in the Old Testament, has been fulfilled by Christ. I believe as Christians we walk now on the basis of relationship and it is that relationship with God through Christ that motivates us to please Him.

J.Davis wrote:You have God’s laws, such as the ones written in the bible (old testament). Individuals who want to have a relationship with God no longer have to follow the old testament Laws given the condition that they accept Jesus as God and follow Him (His example and guidance).

So if that was Silverspirit2001 question then this discussion should be very short..

However, we also have the law in our heart.

Paul pretty much covers the matter…….

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

16 on the day when, according to my gospel

Man will be judged by Jesus’ moral standard, no other moral code matters.

What is right depends on one’s knowledge of who Jesus is and their knowledge of what he would do in a given situation.

Take the example you gave….

jlay wrote:Even God has not dealt with all people the same way. He specifically selected Israel and made covenant with them. So is an ancient Israelite being immoral when they eat pork? Is a non-Israelite?
So, is this question asking about universal objective morality, or particular (local) morality?

As stated earlier, only Jesus’ moral code matters so we will use that…There are many factors involved in moral laws but they can all be split into two categories (Good or evil). No matter how many moral codes man has, the actions he takes as a results of his beliefs will be either good or evil, there are no in-betweens. It’s either God and good or Satan and evil.

I will give a scenario for the Israelite that lives by old testament law and should not eat pork, but the principle is the same for everyone.

First, the Israelite has the knowledge of good and evil in his heart and he believes that God has never sent his son to earth, so he lives by old testament law. He knows that God said not to eat pork, there are endless scenarios that the Israelite is confronted with concerning eating pork and so far he has never eaten pork so he has done Good because disobeying God is evil. One day, the Israelite enters a restaurant so he may eat and he treats his sister to a meal as well. He sits down and notices that he has the attention of a rather unpleasant looking man. The man eats pork and does not serve God and he has had it with “God’s” self-righteous followers. He knows how God’s servants feel about pork. Just a small unintentional involuntary look from the judgmental Israelite was enough to set the man off. He grabs his meal, grinning and tells the Israelite that he is really missing out and that he should try some. The conversation get’s out of hand, the man is not satisfied with taking no for an answer, he grabs a slab of pork off his plate and violently pushes it against the Israelite’s mouth. The Israelite closes his mouth tight and refuses to eat, he has not disobeyed God. The unpleasant looking man becomes enraged, he puts a knife against the Israelite’s throat and tells him to eat it! The Israelite say’s no, believing that God will deliver him form the situation. Seeing the Israelite’s faith and dedication made the unpleasant looking man furious.

He grabs the Israelite’s sister and put’s a light cut across her neck with his knife and yells…EAT IT!

The Israelite’s heart reacts, he knows of God’s furious wrath, and what he has done in the past to those that disobeyed him. The Israelite feels hate, fear and love….His faith begins to fail him, when it was his life on the line then no matter what, God would deliver him, but seeing his sister in this situation is to much for him. He takes matters into his own hands, believing that God will punish him for his lack of faith and disobedience. He grabs a slab of pork and eats it as the unpleasant looking man laughs and says: see, that wasn’t so bad. The unpleasant looking man walks out of the restaurant and the Israelite and his sister live to see another day.

So, did the Israelite break God’s law to save his sister?…Yep. However, he did not act in an evil way. The Israelite felt that God would punish him for his weak faith and because he broke God’s law. But the Israelite was willing to take any amount of punishment from God to save his sister who he loved.

John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

God knew what would happen if he sent Jesus into the world. He would be tortured and killed by humans. But knowing the consequences of his action, he intentionally sent Jesus to die anyway. Because he loves us...the greatest of all laws…love.

The Israelite did what Jesus did, his feeling that he would face unpleasant consequences from God did not matter to him. He acted out of true love and that is above all law’s, and it was second nature, the Israelite got it right…he did good and the greater law will win over the lesser in the eye’s of God.

Right and wrong depends on how we respond to the law God wrote in our heart. The goal is to do what Jesus would do in a given situation and for the reasons he would do it.

If the Israelite became filled with fear, embraced fear and not love and lost faith in God and this was the reason he ate the pork (out of cowardly fear) then not only would he have broken God’s law but he would have committed an act of evil…God hates cowards. It’s all about where a man’s heart is… And we should get to the point where we instinctively do what God would do and for the reasons he would do it.

We study the bible to become like Jesus, not to become like the bible.

And I know you understand all of this Jlay. I just go into such detail for those that don’t know.

Davis,

That's all good, but it doesn't address the original question. We have a question, from an admitted non-believer (see profile) who has all of one post on the forum. And we don't have enough info in the OP to jump to these kinds of explanations.

As stated earlier, only Jesus’ moral code matters so we will use that

I doubt it matters much to the unbeliever. They don't view the bible as authoritative, much less dispensationally.

Hi Jlay!

jlay wrote:Davis,

That's all good, but it doesn't address the original question. We have a question, from an admitted non-believer (see profile) who has all of one post on the forum. And we don't have enough info in the OP to jump to these kinds of explanations.

As stated earlier, only Jesus’ moral code matters so we will use that

I doubt it matters much to the unbeliever. They don't view the bible as authoritative, much less dispensationally.

My last post was in response to the post before your pervious one…

Concerning the original question, I think the answers given so far are a good foundation to answer any question concerning Jesus/God’s morals or laws. The responses given so far are from a Christian perspective. silverspirit200 asked about God’s moral system….

silverspirit2001 wrote:I.E. is the system of morality designed by god logical?

No matter what he may mean or add to his statement, if we are talking about Jesus/God’s morals or laws, old testament, new testament, the knowledge of the law God put in our heart (what is good to do/ Jesus moral code), the knowledge of Satan’s Law/moral code, which humans receive when they sin or any variation of these things whether it’s a question concerning if the bible, God, his moral system (the one in our heart) etc is right, wrong, logical, do they apply to everyone, are they fair, is it right that they apply to everyone, don’t we all have different moral values etc, ect and etc. The answers, from a Christian perspective will still be along the lines of what has already been given.

It does not matter if he is a non-believer so therefore he does not (may not) believe that God’s bible or laws apply to him or that one can’t use the bible as proof of anything because he can’t find any evidence that it is true or that God exist etc. If he did not want the Christian answer then I do not believe he would of asked his question on a Christian forum. Also, he asked about God’s moral system so the best way to answer the question is to tell him what God say’s and the only way to show proof of what God said is to use the bible.

Basically, everything I (and others) have said so far is the same thing Jesus said and or did…


“Matthew 12:8-13”- “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue.10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him.11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”13 Then He * said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other.

The overwhelming majority of scripture (the word/Old and New testament) was given by God to show his creation (humans) how to be good/have God/Jesus’ character.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Yes Jesus is God, but many did not make the connection that He was God so Jesus did not want the rich man or people listening to think that their idea and label for holy men should be applied to Him. The word good is only a worthy title for Jesus when he uses His definition of the word. In other words…Jesus: Ok, look pal, me and the type of people you’re thinking about aren’t even close to being in the same league...I am God compared to them…GOD!!! Ok, so maybe Jesus was a bit more humble about it….

Anyway, as shown in the scriptures above…If a human did not learn to do good by following the law then the law is void in the eye’s of God who made the law. For example, say a person drives a car on a road and the speed limit is 65 MPH (105 km/h). But the car in front is only going 45 MPH (72 km/h), so in order to keep the speed limit and prevent from breaking the law, you speedup and ram the car in front, or drive off the road onto the grass to pass him. In this case, should something go wrong, the law will not save you. Because the law was put in place to keep drivers safe and you broke the stay safe law which is above all laws concerning driving on the road.. It’s the same with God, regardless of what the law say’s, if you keep the law and break the do good law or love law then the fact that you kept the law will be irrelevant to God.

No matter what the question is, concerning God and the purpose for his Law or the logic in it, regardless of if one man feels one way and another man feels another, concerning perspectives of right and wrong.. Concerning the Christian perspective, given any scenario, the answer is that Jesus’ idea of good is right and if we do good by his definition (follow him) then we are morally right in the eye’s of God. And God’s moral system/law (the law he wrote in our heart) was constructed using God’s logic. Who can say that they know what will make a person come to Jesus, inspire to be like Jesus and realize true right and wrong/good and evil better than God.

If any atheist (not saying silverspirit200 is doing this/going to do this) want’s to take God out of the equation then the conversation of what is right or wrong will be missing the one true answer. If an atheist want’s to have a discussion with facts from a human perspective and hypothetical scenarios excluding God then that is fine. But silverspirit200 did come on a Christian forum and ask about God‘s moral system.

In any case, sometimes people just post so they can see others ideas and gather info, and that’s fine. But there is nothing wrong with us discussing matters that are related to the thread or giving an idea until the original poster comes back and gives more detail concerning the answers he is looking for. We will just give info on the new post. Also, someone might find what has already been discussed useful, so noting goes to waste. And I know you are not disagreeing with me, I have read many of your post so I know your general take on several matters concerning God and the bible.

I’m afraid I’m going to have to use this on you …

Do I have to give you another one???

Can i just ask a brief question? Can one be immoral if he/she is by themselves? For example i'm stuck in an island where i am the only intelligent life form and there is nothing that i can harm by my own doing. So if i were to hurt myself, would that be immoral? If yes, why? Is the system of morality bent on governing what is right and wrong when in a communion of people or living life forms?

thaanxx