Evidence for God from Science

Hello guys I was wanting to do a discussion about whether or not Christianity has any real challenges from any of the other world religions? From what I've studied thus far, other major religions like Islam, Jehovah's witnesses, Mormonism, Hinduism, Buddhism, scientology and so on come up very short when compared to how much better Christianity speaks to the human condition. Not to mention all of today's science, archeology, and philosophy fits way better with Christianity than with any other religion or cult. About the only other religion that could really give Christianity even a slight challenge is deism or a belief in a unknown god. Which of course, the unknown part is the only main thing that deism can offer (for people who like mysteries). So from that, it's plain to see, for me at least, the real battle for all the marbles is between cold meaningless atheism/naturalism and warm, happy, full of meaning Christianity. Which even if atheism were to be shown to be more reasonable and to have most of the evidence (which it don't at least for now) it would be more better and healthy for society to still embrace Christianity since mental health research and history has shown that people as well as communities who embrace Christianity as a philosophy and moral system live fuller and more happier lives with more meaning than those individuals and societies who don't. Anyway, that's my take, what kind of questions and comments do you all have concerning this? Thanks and GB.

Wow, sounds like you already have the thesis of your argument set up and the topic ideas organized. I suggest simply researching the teachings of other religions, and perhaps view this website's article on the matter, I believe that there is a page on the uniqueness of Jesus' teachings.

About threats to Christianity, while atheism/naturalism certainly is a threat, I think some of us in "the western world" underestimate the power of Islam. As far as theology and argumentation about philosophy goes, I'm sure fewer Christians in America "convert to Islam" than "convert to secularism", but the number of Muslims in western countries just goes up and up and up (and they have their own strategies about dominating a culture). And then in "the eastern world", forget it! There's an entire Islamic culture throughout the world that American Christians largely ignore. The eastern world in general is important, but largely ignored by us.

Atheism isn't going in the way, but I think it's a kind of "trendy thing" if that makes any sense. Atheists talk about religion dying out, but that's not happening for either Islam or Christianity. Muslims still have their own scientists, their own philosophers and apologists, and rulers who would like nothing better than to wipe every Christian off the face of the Earth. It most certainly is a threat. I don't know as much about it as I should, but Craig did "borrow" the kalam cosmological argument from a Muslim philosopher, did he not?

Anyway, in a way it's all the same to me, because they're all lost without Christ. Each religious point of view presents different challenges and they'll ask different questions (and some questions that are the same). Apologists from different backgrounds can answer these challenges in different ways (and some like Ravi Zacharias, who grew up with Hinduism), and whether some challenges are "more difficult", well, I'd say that depends on the person asking the questions! As I said, I can agree that atheism/secularism has commanded the most attention, even to the degree that some (and I've been guilty of this as well) feel good about a person if their a theist at all, when in reality the Muslim is just as lost as the atheist.

Hello Narnia4, I agree that Islam is a challenge in the sense that it has a huge aggressive following and is very much a major social and political threat to Christians and the entire world. But in terms of how they fair in the intellectual scene, not so much. From what I've seen, Islam is pretty easy to beat in fair intellectual debates. For example Islam has tons of scientific and historical inaccuracies. Not to mention Muhammand never performed a single miracle. And when you combine the fact that the whole thing resembles a perverted spinoff of Judaism and Christianity and they promote their view with wars, conquests, and terroristic bloodshed Islam clearly doesn't speak to the human condition near as much nor offers the same or better kind of hope, meaning and purpose that Christianity offers. I've said this to myself many times, if Islam is true, than I would be a happy man in the Muslim hell. But anyway, that is the purpose of this thread to discuss which other religions if any pose any kind of intellectual challenge to Christianity as far as arguments and evidence go. And if of course, hold to the view that as of now as far as how much I've studied each religion, none of them do. Christianity's biggest intellectual threat or intellectual equal is atheism and or naturalism. Maybe Islam could be second, but who cares who is second or third?

It's actually an easy question. The main differences between Christianity and the other beliefs is that Christianity is a gospel of grace. In Christianity you cannot work out your salvation. You cannot earn it from God since it is a gift. The other beliefs are WORKS orientated.

Also the God of the Bible is a God of love. None of the other beliefs even come close to this.

Which even if atheism were to be shown to be more reasonable and to have most of the evidence (which it don't at least for now) it would be more better and healthy for society to still embrace Christianity since mental health research and history has shown that people as well as communities who embrace Christianity as a philosophy and moral system live fuller and more happier lives with more meaning than those individuals and societies who don't. Anyway, that's my take, what kind of questions and comments do you all have concerning this? Thanks and GB.

Honestly that makes me cringe. This is some sort of ignorance is bliss thinking. Without a creator God there can be no inherent truth. Without a creator there is not purpose in life. No matter how hard someone argues against it. And the fact that some people are trying to disprove God, and prove the truth so to speak, shows they have a purpose and so their own ideas are self-defeating. The question 'does God exist' is a good one, and one that I believe has more than been answered. It doesn't sound as if you have thoroughly explored this apologetic.
So, the next question is, "which faith is genuine?" Both these questions are where apologetics have their merit. They will not save a person, but they can provide answers that open the door for salvation.
Which God is often referred to as the glass slipper. Just like Cinderella was chosen because the slipper fit her foot perfectly, we can examine which faith fits. And yes, there are criteria that are not arbitrary but can reveal which God is the genuine and which are the counterfeits. For example, Islam actually fits many of the criteria, but misses on the essential. It is monotheistic, and does properly atribute many of the characteristics of a creator God.
One of the biggest problems with Islam is it basically rejects reason and logic in many areas. It doesn't advocate evidence or 'proofs' per se. The Hebrews 11:1 description of faith holds no merit in Islam.
Islam is more of the, "Islam is true because Islam says it is true." Sadly there are a lot of Christians who also operate under this view. Which is sad, because they don't have to. The question is "how do we know it is true?"

Personally, I don't think one goes about shopping for a religion that seems to have the best appeal to human reasonings. Christianity to the unbeliever is foolishness and it requires the illumination of the Holy Spirit to our thinking to accept that the Gospel is fact and truth. There is reasoning involved yet it requires faith to accept the facts of the Gospel and it is God who opens our eyes and ears to be able to embrace it as truth. Once embraced we receive a new heart, a new disposition toward God, and we begin to appreciate more and more how it is truth and how it impacts the world around us

So, yes, Christianity is challenged by all kinds of religions and humanistic views and it takes a miracle of grace to overcome these challenges. What I think is being understimated today is the power of the Holy Spirit in changing lives and too much emphasis is being placed on intellectual reasonings on a humanistic reasoning basis. Instead of transformation we lean toward concepts of reformation. A decline in prayer for the lost is one area where I think this is reflected. Why pray for God to do something that we think we might be able to do through our logical arguments and convincing people to reform their ways. My belief is we are in a spiritual warfare but are not using spiritual weapons as we must. Anyway, just a few thoughts to throw in.

Sudsy wrote:Personally, I don't think one goes about shopping for a religion that seems to have the best appeal to human reasonings. Christianity to the unbeliever is foolishness and it requires the illumination of the Holy Spirit to our thinking to accept that the Gospel is fact and truth. There is reasoning involved yet it requires faith to accept the facts of the Gospel and it is God who opens our eyes and ears to be able to embrace it as truth. Once embraced we receive a new heart, a new disposition toward God, and we begin to appreciate more and more how it is truth and how it impacts the world around us

So, yes, Christianity is challenged by all kinds of religions and humanistic views and it takes a miracle of grace to overcome these challenges. What I think is being understimated today is the power of the Holy Spirit in changing lives and too much emphasis is being placed on intellectual reasonings on a humanistic reasoning basis. Instead of transformation we lean toward concepts of reformation. A decline in prayer for the lost is one area where I think this is reflected. Why pray for God to do something that we think we might be able to do through our logical arguments and convincing people to reform their ways. My belief is we are in a spiritual warfare but are not using spiritual weapons as we must. Anyway, just a few thoughts to throw in.

In thinking about how I approach debates I definitely fall guilty to relying on my own arguments and not on God's power way too often. Excellent point.

Isn't reason a gift from God?
Without the eternal creator, what 'reason' is there? None.
Don't get me wrong, I think you make a good point. We should be lead by the spirit. But anytime we seek to answer a question such as, "Is the bible reliable," our answer is an immediate step into apologetics.

God draws all men. All men have been gifted by God with a measure of faith. He is not far from them, as the scriptures say. Lost sinners do not have the Holy Spirit, and God will not force His spirit upon them.

While I think its true that we should respond that way, I think one of the main points made was that we should be praying and seeking God's will and not relying exclusively on our own reasoning. Unfortunately, when you try to debate this stuff with people, they often disregard the reason. A lot of the time, it isn't even by reason that they oppose the Christian message. I think there's a huge amount of spiritual warfare involved. Another part of it is just hardened hearts I think. In either of those cases, we should certainly present a reasonable defense of out faith, but I don't know that we should place most of our confidence there so much as in God working behind the scenes loosening up people's hearts and minds. Otherwise all the reason falls on deaf ears.

so much as in God working behind the scenes loosening up people's hearts and minds.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

Perhaps God is using me or you as the one to loosen up hearts and minds. Perhaps it appears that our 'reasons' fall on deaf ears, but you never really know what a person weighs in their own mind.

it isn't even by reason that they oppose the Christian message.

I guess that all depends on the individual. I would tend to think that many people who reject Christianity think they are being more than reasonable.

One of the reasons why I believe prayer is so important in the process is that when I pray for God to bring salvation to someone, I am recognizing my own inability to save someone myself. And if I then allow myself to be lead by the Spirit, then God alone knows the heart of each person and He can guide me to say what really will speak to their heart. In my own efforts, I can be giving them various arguments yet not be hitting on the main stumblingblock that is keeping them from salvation.

I think that some have accepted certain reasonings regarding the Gospel and agree to believe it as stated and yet have not been born again. Some acknowledge that they agree with what was told them, repeat a 'sinner's prayer' as told them and then are told they are born again. They took it on as a valid religion to follow for certain reasons of their own but really did not experience this belief in their heart which includes not only the intellect but the will, the conscience and the emotions. When I hear a very popular TV preacher tell people that 'now we believe you have been born again', I shudder. They will soon know whether they have the Spirit of God now dwelling within them or not. If my salvation is that unclear that I must rely on what others say, then I better pursue it until it is that clear. Whoops, don't know why I ventured over on this.

Anyway, one of the reasons why some of my friends are not Christians is that their lives are basically going quite well without a recognition of God in their life. It may just be for a short time or it may last for most of their life. Scripture says that there is pleasure in sin for a season and for some, this season is quite long. My life of non-conforming and/or conservative indulgence in certain things that they find pleasure in, is not very attractive. And sometimes I get concerned that my living does not reflect such an abundant life that they would want more than the one they are living. So, their reasoning is that their life is more enjoyable and regarding a next life, they'll take their chances. Sometimes, it seems, the only thing that gets to them is when things start to fall apart health wise and/or materialistically. I think what does speak to them though is when I go through sufferings and loss of loved ones and maintain a positive hope beyond the grave. Our witness must go beyond words. And words are best when lead by the Spirit. Whoops, rambling again and straying from the thread. I better shut up.

Hello again, I've got a couple of things I want to quickly address...

Sudsy wrote:Personally, I don't think one goes about shopping for a religion that seems to have the best appeal to human reasonings. Christianity to the unbeliever is foolishness and it requires the illumination of the Holy Spirit to our thinking to accept that the Gospel is fact and truth. There is reasoning involved yet it requires faith to accept the facts of the Gospel and it is God who opens our eyes and ears to be able to embrace it as truth. Once embraced we receive a new heart, a new disposition toward God, and we begin to appreciate more and more how it is truth and how it impacts the world around us

You've got a very good point Suds, This reminds me of something I pointed out in a thread related to witnessing, especially when trying to reach the secular lost in America and other western nations, especially with the rise of this aggressive new atheism people are becoming way more difficult to reach, even with good quality apologetics. In fact, I said in that thread that it is becoming so hard to reach them, believers would be more productive in trying to help reach the lost in foreign non western and tribal countries where thankfully, the God delusion and infidels dot org hasn't been translated in their native languages and thus they would be naturally more receptive and open to the gospel and have a better chance at responding to the Holy Spirit and being converted than many people in western english speaking countries. But I guess with what you said, technically yes, people in our western secular nations can still be reached but in my opinion it would require some major acts, possibly supernatural acts of God to break past all their "walls" they have built up between them and Christ, such as their unwillingness to listen and carefully consider opposing viewpoints, their immorality, their far left wing political "pet projects", and then their intellectual arguments and doubts they have against Christianity. To get them to respond positively to the gospel all these walls have to come down and with many of these people, if you take Hugh Ross, William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga, Gary Habermas and so on, to personally present the best possible case for Christianity you wouldn't even budge some of them because of their hatred for Christianity and their unwillingness to listen. So in that sense God would have to supernaturally move to get into the hearts of people like that. I just wish that we would start seeing more of that taking place. Maybe with the economy as bad as it is and with people's futures uncertain maybe the spiritual climate is becoming more fertile so that people will start listening. We can only hope and pray that it does.

jlay wrote:Honestly that makes me cringe. This is some sort of ignorance is bliss thinking. Without a creator God there can be no inherent truth. Without a creator there is not purpose in life.

Ok, Jlay, this has to do with the theoritical idea that if God's existence was somehow disproven or shown to be most likely false by the secular establishment. I was saying in the wild (and most unlikely case) that something as that were to happen, just to get myself through the rest of my life, I may then still try to believe in the Christian God just for the fact that Christianity provides the most positive life possible. It looked like you were objecting to that, but when you consider that if it was proven that we do live in a completely naturalistic universe with no god (especially the Christian God) living a neat, tidy philosophically organized life (especially one that is organized in philosophical atheism) would be worthless. Technically then one could believe anything they want because if things pop into existence uncaused from nothing BY nothing then all views on anything are worthless and thus are all permissible even, at the same time. But anyway, because of Christianity's promises, because of it's moral system, because of the fellowship among followers, when done right, you can't live a more positive and happy life. Now atheists may to try to show that one can be as moral as Christians but in doing so they have to borrow from us. So in a nutshell, those are some of the supporting ideas for my view.

When it comes to how difficult it appears for some to accept the Gospel, I'm reminded of what Jesus said in Matthew 19 about how hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Going back to the Aramaic (the Aramaic word gamla means rope and camel), it could be translated 'it is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle'. But then Jesus follows this with 'with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible'. Our God is mighty to save ! I believe every salvation is a miracle that takes the supernatural and if a fellow like Paul can be saved, anyone can.

Perhaps our biggest issue today has more to do with our expectancy of God to work supernaturally to convert people. I sometimes think we can get in the way of the Spirit with some of our methods. I was blessed to have parents that had day/night conversions. First, my unchurched, worldly living mom was saved and after two years of hell from my dad, he, too, was miraculously saved. Then various brothers and sisters in the family, all unchurched, came to know the Lord also. They all continued to serve God througout their lives in various ministries. So, I was raised in a home that had a high expectancy for dramatic life changing, conversion experiences. I, too, long to see more of this occuring today.

Regarding how fulfilling a good living atheist's life can be, I don't really know. Some say that they rest easy knowing that they are actively loving their neighbour as themselves and some really are enjoying this life. Their lives have worth to them as they follow what they believe is worthwhile. Some in other religions feel the same so I don't know how much they are really feeling that they are missing. Yet I do believe also that knowing Christ has far greater dimensions to life here even though, IMO, many believers are living well below an abundant life level. IMO, some non-Christians can be having a better experience in this life than a Christian who is a 'fence straddler'. Some local churches have quite a number of miserable looking, divisive believers that sure don't attract people to Christianity. But as you indicated, if Christianity is 'done right', I believe it not only is the best life possible but also will be quite attractive so others can't just easily dismiss it.