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Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:34 pm
by Gman
Ok this is a gross subject... I'll admit that. It's sick, but I have a question for Young Earth Creationists. Let's face it. Farting is not only embarrassing, but they also can stink and are disgusting, and according to Genesis there was plenty of fruit in the Garden of Eden to supply the fuel for the fire.

My question is, before sin, in the Garden of Eden was there any farting going on there? It was a perfect world, correct? How could God allow such a gross embarrassing thing in the garden? AND if there wasn't any farting going on in the garden, how was God going to stop it?

We won't even get into burping.. Or acid reflux.

Just curious... ;)

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:22 pm
by J.Davis
Great question Gman!

You know, I have always had that same thought, why do we have to fart (or worse)?

If I had to take a guess, I would say that the fruit God provided was perfect, it had no impurities. The body would simply consume the fruit without a need to discharge the repulsive byproducts of (what is clearly) sin.

I think it must have been the forbidden fruit. A body made in the image of God would obviously need away to get rid of impurities. Adam and Eve must have known the error of their ways soon after eating the fruit God told them to avoid. But they didn’t listen and now we all suffer because of it. It’s all so clear now, why else would they have shame and a need to hide from God? And the reason God gave for forcing Adam and Eve out of the garden? Like He could not have just removed the tree of life, or put an angel their to guard it? It was the smell, God simply could not deal with the smell. Their sin was a stench up God's nostrils, I don’t see how I missed this before.

Thanks Gman!... Great post!…LOL!

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:41 pm
by jlay
I am offended at your negative view of farting. And so I fart in your general direction. :pound:

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:17 pm
by August
Way to go GMan...now, in addition to the problem of evil, the geniuses over at the Dawkins forum are going start throwing the problem of farting our way. At least it will be an argument commensurate with their normal levels of thinking.

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:09 pm
by Gman
August wrote:Way to go GMan...now, in addition to the problem of evil, the geniuses over at the Dawkins forum are going start throwing the problem of farting our way. At least it will be an argument commensurate with their normal levels of thinking.
LOL.. Well it's a smelly subject for sure. :P

But I'm going to prove a point here...

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:40 pm
by Gman
J.Davis wrote:Great question Gman!

You know, I have always had that same thought, why do we have to fart (or worse)?

If I had to take a guess, I would say that the fruit God provided was perfect, it had no impurities. The body would simply consume the fruit without a need to discharge the repulsive byproducts of (what is clearly) sin.

I think it must have been the forbidden fruit. A body made in the image of God would obviously need away to get rid of impurities. Adam and Eve must have known the error of their ways soon after eating the fruit God told them to avoid. But they didn’t listen and now we all suffer because of it. It’s all so clear now, why else would they have shame and a need to hide from God? And the reason God gave for forcing Adam and Eve out of the garden? Like He could not have just removed the tree of life, or put an angel their to guard it? It was the smell, God simply could not deal with the smell. Their sin was a stench up God nostrils, I don’t see how I missed this before.

Thanks Gman!... Great post!…LOL!
Thanks J.Davis... That was very brave of you. But I'm not trying to be funny here... :P

Ok here is my problem with the fruit God provided was perfect, that it had no impurities. Some even say that Adam and Eve's genetic makeup was different before the fall so that they wouldn't fart.. :roll: The problem here is that flatulence is a natural occurring phenomena that simply cannot be thwarted in a natural physical environment. The Bible makes it clear that the physical laws of the universe were in full operation before the fall, therefore even gross things like flatulence must have been in place before the fall. In other words, given the laws of physics, it is not possible to create an organism that does not fart.. Given the laws of physics and the nature of quantum events, it is not possible to design an animal that operates without giving off some gas. God can't stop it, much like cancer cannot be stopped since it also a random event. It's a price you have to pay when you mix chemicals in a physical world. You simply cannot escape it.. It's a natural evil or smell.. Why Natural Evil Must Exist

Therefore the YEC belief has it's problems..

Consider this wiki source.. "The gas in our intestines comes from several sources: air we swallow, gas seeping into our intestines from our blood, gas produced by chemical reactions in our guts, and gas produced by bacteria living in our guts."
Composition of flatus

Nitrogen, the main constituent of air, is the primary gas released during flatulence, along with carbon dioxide, which is present in higher quantities in those who drink carbonated beverages regularly. The lesser component gases methane and hydrogen are flammable, and so flatus containing adequate amounts of these, can be ignited. However, not all humans produce flatus that contains methane. For example, in one study of the feces of nine adults, only five of the samples contained archaea capable of producing methane.[1] Similar results are found in samples of gas obtained from within the rectum.

The gas released during a flatus event frequently has an unpleasant odor. For many years, this was thought to be due to skatole and indole, which are byproducts of the digestion of meat. However, gas chromatography testing in 1984 revealed that sulfur-containing compounds, such as methanethiol, hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell) and dimethyl sulfide, were also[2] responsible for the smell.[3]

The incidence of odoriferous compounds in flatulence emissions increases from herbivores, such as cattle, through omnivores to carnivorous species, such as cats.[citation needed] Such odor can also be caused by the presence of large numbers of microflora bacteria and/or the presence of feces in the rectum.

The major components of the flatus, which are odorless, by percentage are:[4]

* Nitrogen: 20–90%
* Hydrogen: 0–50%
* Carbon dioxide: 10–30%
* Oxygen: 0–10%
* Methane: 0–10%

Causes

Intestinal gas is composed of varying quantities of exogenous sources (air that is ingested through the nose and mouth) and endogenous sources (gas produced within the digestive tract). The exogenous gases are swallowed (aerophagia) when eating or drinking or increased swallowing during times of excessive salivation (as might occur when nauseated or as the result of gastroesophageal reflux disease). The endogenous gases are produced either as a by-product of digesting certain types of food, or of incomplete digestion. Anything that causes food to be incompletely digested by the stomach and/or small intestine may cause flatulence when the material arrives in the large intestine, due to fermentation by yeast or prokaryotes normally or abnormally present in the gastrointestinal tract.

Flatulence-producing foods are typically high in certain polysaccharides, (especially oligosaccharides such as inulin). Those foods include beans, lentils, dairy products, onions, garlic, scallions, leeks, turnips, rutabagas, radishes, sweet potatoes, potatoes, cashews, Jerusalem artichokes, oats, wheat, and yeast in breads. Cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, Brussels sprouts and other cruciferous vegetables that belong to the genus Brassica are commonly reputed to not only increase flatulence, but to increase the pungency of the flatus.

In beans, endogenous gases seem to arise from complex oligosaccharide (carbohydrates) that are particularly resistant to digestion by mammals, but which are readily digestible by gut flora – microorganisms (methane-producing archaea; Methanobrevibacter smithii) that inhabit the digestive tract. These oligosaccharides pass through the upper intestine largely unchanged, and when they reach the lower intestine, bacteria feed on them, producing copious amounts of flatus.[6]

In the case of people who have lactose intolerance, intestinal bacteria feeding on lactose can give rise to excessive gas production when milk or lactose-containing substances have been consumed.

Interest in the causes of flatulence was spurred by high-altitude flight and the space program; the low atmospheric pressure, confined conditions, and stresses peculiar to those endeavours were cause for concern.[6] In the field of mountaineering, high altitude flatus expulsion was first noticed over two hundred years ago.

Some infections, such as giardiasis, are also associated with flatulence.[7]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence
Which brings us to a question.. Should God just destroy the bacteria in our intestines which would take care of the flatulence? I would hope not or we would be dead... It's simply a byproduct of living on this planet.

Therefore flatulence is just another problem that the YEC's have to face... Sorry for the pun. ;) It is too gross to be allowed in the Garden of Eden, but then again it is needed for survival.

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:52 pm
by zoegirl
jlay wrote:I am offended at your negative view of farting. And so I fart in your general direction. :pound:
bahahahahah!! That has to be one of the weirdest parts of that movie...other than the bizarre ending...

(I cant' read that without a french accent sounding off in my brain)

I also have wondered where this idea that digestive waste is bad or in some way the result of the fall....

I have written several reserach papers from my grad days about the large intestine. We have anywhere from 300-500 species of bacteria and billions of bacteria lining the intestines. The vast majority of them are either commensural or beneficial. Most serve to create a living boundary along the large intestine walls to prevent pathogenic bacteria from growing. Along the way the immune cells learn and are activated. In fact, there is some line of thinking that the large should be considered part of the lymphatic system.

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm
by Gman
zoegirl wrote:
jlay wrote:I am offended at your negative view of farting. And so I fart in your general direction. :pound:
bahahahahah!! That has to be one of the weirdest parts of that movie...other than the bizarre ending...

(I cant' read that without a french accent sounding off in my brain)

I also have wondered where this idea that digestive waste is bad or in some way the result of the fall....

I have written several reserach papers from my grad days about the large intestine. We have anywhere from 300-500 species of bacteria and billions of bacteria lining the intestines. The vast majority of them are either commensural or beneficial. Most serve to create a living boundary along the large intestine walls to prevent pathogenic bacteria from growing. Along the way the immune cells learn and are activated. In fact, there is some line of thinking that the large should be considered part of the lymphatic system.
Yes... That is what I see too.. The bacteria IS beneficial and the natural byproduct of their actions is gas. Therefore, there would have to be some sort of flatulence in the garden.. So no, the garden was NOT perfect. They had their embarrassing smelly moments. This is my point...

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:57 pm
by RickD
Smelly feces is a result of a bad diet. I worked with a really obese, unhealthy man who has the worst smelling sh!ts I've ever had the displeasure of smelling. The worse the smell, the unhealthier the diet. I would guess that may be the same case for flatulence as well. So, if Adam and Eve were eating only fruits and veggies, they probably didn't have a problem with stinky farts. That's just my opinion. So, imo, YEC lives to fart, I mean fight another day.

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:06 pm
by zoegirl
But if I'm reading Gman's premise correctly, he isn't jsut talking about the smell...but rather that fact that they exist at all...

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:21 pm
by RickD
zoegirl wrote:But if I'm reading Gman's premise correctly, he isn't jsut talking about the smell...but rather that fact that they exist at all...
I thought Gman was referring to the smell because he wrote:
So no, the garden was NOT perfect. They had their embarrassing smelly moments. This is my point...
If Gman was talking about any farting, not just stinky farting, then how do we know the foods available in the garden would or would not have caused flatulence?

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:47 pm
by zoegirl
The odor of the flatus is not necessarily linked to bad diet. Notice above that plenty of vegetables increase the odor.

Unless we want to maintain that the garden was devoid of all cruciferous veggies and beans and humans were devoid of bacteria, I would say that it would be rather...hot air (HAH) to maintain that there was no flatulence from Adam or Eve.

We shouldn't let (this is an inclusive we, not meaning specifically you and I) our human baggage to dictate guesses that aren't really supported by any scripture. It's a weird image of Adam and Eve to remove all human physical....embarrassments....if anything, the sin simply made of shameful and aware of these bodily functions.

I'm sure the garden was full of bodily....music...shall we say?

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:48 pm
by zoegirl
After all...did they burp? have stomach growling? intestinal growls?

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:57 pm
by RickD
Gman, you may be correct after all. I researched , and found this little known translation:Genesis 3:6-7 RBSv
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the nostrils of both of them were opened, and they realized their flatulence was horrible; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves

Re: Farting in the Garden

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:21 pm
by zoegirl