Evidence for God from Science

Is loving yourself a sin? Does loving yourself link to selfishness ? Is it possible to love yourself?

God Bless

CeT-To wrote:Is loving yourself a sin? Does loving yourself link to selfishness ? Is it possible to love yourself?

God Bless

I guess it would depend on what kind of love you mean. Could you be more specific?

Hey Rick, sorry i didn't specify more as i was going to wait as more people responded but i might as well do it now. It is concerning to God's love and the Trinity. An argument that i've herd that is been used to show that the triune God is the only possible God that there could be because since it says in the scripture "God is love " which i presume is the agape type of love which is a sort of love that gives and sacrifices. Yet my question is IF God is not triune then how can God be love? since before the creation there was only Him.

Also, how can agape be actualised before the creation? Since even tho God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit it feels like there no need to "give" and "sacrifice" inside the triuness of God since they are essentially God ( perfect in every way)

Is it required that "God is love" to BE God?

CeT-To wrote:Is loving yourself a sin? Does loving yourself link to selfishness ? Is it possible to love yourself?

God Bless

I would like to address this question... Loving yourself is not a sin Matthew 22:38-39 but it is not a prideful kind of love.. It's just being accurate with yourself. In other words acknowledging the good and the bad in yourself..

I agree....I would also say taking care of yourself...

Yep, Don’t forget this one….

“Ephesians 5:28-29” 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

We treat people as if they are a reflection of ourselves. For example, a man that is greedy for money will never believe that everyone is not after his money because he is after everyone’s money so everyone else must be too. Therefore, he will treat everyone as if they have the same lust for money he has. He will treat them like they are willing to go to the same extremes as him to satisfy the lust they must have for cash. So he may windup hurting a person that is genuinely selfless and charitable, completely unfamiliar with the ways of the greedy man, incapable of competing with his nature and undeserving of his abuse.

The word of God is the standard for how we should love ourselves.

If we overthrow God’s authority over our life’s and do as we see fit then we become the creator. And all shall be made in our image.

I would say Christ is the standard for how we should love ourselves. Loving ourselves is nothing more than seeing ourselves as God sees us. Christ modeled self-love in appropriate measure by submitting Himself to the Father (a mutual submission within the overall relationship of the Trinity, but impacted by the self-sacrifice Christ made in becoming fully human.) Christ's love for us led to his willingness to sacrifice Himself for that which we could not do for ourselves.

Yeah, I would have normally gone with Christ as well Bart, instead of the word (you are really pushing this view…lol…and that’s awesome!)

But the circumstances are a bit different due to the nature of my pervious post. Christ is who we are to become like but to know absolute truth concerning what constitutes sin we turn to the bible. People can become desensitized to that wrong feeling they once had, should they ignore it and keep sinning. Two people can argue all day on whether an act is a sin or not but if the bible says it’s a sin then it is so. So in the case of loving oneself by not performing the sins God said would cause corruption (harming oneself and others) it is necessary to know the source (lust and it’s effects, greed and it’s effects etc) of the corruption and the bible is the best source to know the absolute truth. Our heart will tell us that things are wrong if the heart is not to corrupt but it will not give us the knowledge to know the kind of detail the bible covers concerning sins and it’s overall effects, not only on ourselves, but on others as well (details concerning why we should avoid them).

But in general, I agree with you 100% percent concerning Jesus being the standard for how we are to carry ourselves (become like him).

J.Davis wrote:Yeah, I would have normally gone with Christ as well Bart, instead of the word (you are really pushing this view…lol…and that’s awesome!)

But the circumstances are a bit different due to the nature of my pervious post. Christ is who we are to become like but to know absolute truth concerning what constitutes sin we turn to the bible. People can become desensitized to that wrong feeling they once had, should they ignore it and keep sinning. Two people can argue all day on whether an act is a sin or not but if the bible says it’s a sin then it is so. So in the case of loving oneself by not performing the sins God said would cause corruption (harming oneself and others) it is necessary to know the source (lust and it’s effects, greed and it’s effects etc) of the corruption and the bible is the best source to know the absolute truth. Our heart will tell us that things are wrong if the heart is not to corrupt but it will not give us the knowledge to know the kind of detail the bible covers concerning sins and it’s overall effects, not only on ourselves, but on others as well (details concerning why we should avoid them).

But in general, I agree with you 100% percent concerning Jesus being the standard for how we are to carry ourselves (become like him).

It's picking at nits, but then, do you believe that before the Bible was finalized as far as the NT goes, in the 4th century that Christians before that time were unequipped or unable to walk in that path?

I don't. We either believe that Jesus is the Word, and holds that role uniquely, and that the Spirit of Christ, or Holy Spirit, dwells within us and with our conscience renewed we are able to follow Him. I'm certainly glad we have the Bible and it certainly is a wonderful resource. Christ however, is what the early Church preached and practiced and to the extent that we today have added to or detracted from that, we risk less than a full gospel.

There certainly is clarity in the Old Testament with regard to what is sin and what is not. However, with Christ comes a new covenant and the old one has been fulfilled. The New Testament itself indicates that there are matters which are not absolute but which are determined by our conscience and belief as to whether we are doing something wrong or not (eating meat offered to idols for example).

Christ is the one who summarized the law with the primary tenet that we are to love others as we love ourselves. We have no better example or model of that than Christ. The Gospels within the Bible reinforce that (pointing as they do to Jesus.) If we believe however that Christ and the Holy Spirit are real, and not just abstract principles captured in a book, then we have to look first and foremost to Christ and His Spirit within us to guide us as to what it means to love ourselves in that manner that indicates is a premise upon which all the law and the prophets of old, hinge.

That's how I understand anyway.

Hi Bart!

Canuckster1127 wrote:It's picking at nits, but then, do you believe that before the Bible was finalized as far as the NT goes, in the 4th century that Christians before that time were unequipped or unable to walk in that path?

Or, are we nit picking? You see the revelation here ? LOL….I think humans had God’s law in their heart from the start and could always do what God said was good to do. I read your post concerning the fact that the bible is not to be followed to the letter, to the point where it contradicts what is in the heart of a true Christian concerning matters that involve treating others in a way that is good. At least I believe that is the core of what you were saying and it is the same thing Jesus said (in several ways). I actually tried to explain what you were saying several years ago and I can not even begin to tell you the confusion that was involved…lol! It was very close to what you experienced…If you don’t say it just right…lol! “The Bible is not "The Word of God“” …lol . Yeah, you were asking for that one..lol. I thought to myself (Oh no! they’ll crucify him..lol ). Nah, I knew you would make things clear…

As I said, we agree…There are several matters in the bible that are not set in stone. Church matters, the right way to fellowship, using the heart to determine how to treat someone for their immoral acts against us, the woman’s place in the church, what words to use to pray, how to minister and several others. In many cases, whatever a Christian feels is right in their heart (so long as their heart is not seriously corrupt), is ok with God.

But this is were things are set in stone. The old testament is fulfilled but the 10 commandments and the rest of the sins spoken of in both the old and new testament have not been done away with (I know you knew that). Jesus and the disciples were extremely clear on what not to do. Sins that corrupt (< key word) the heart are always wrong because they hurt us and others. A corrupted heart losses the ability to judge whether the actions that corrupted the heart are right or wrong and the force causing the corruption, such as greed or lust will influence all decisions concerning desire, such as a need for more of everything that one considers desirable, drugs, money, food, sex, sleep, punishment (because it makes up for wrong feelings) etc. The more corrupt the heart gets the less sensitive it will be to what is good. We will have people that kill, steal, rape, abuse, and cause all manner of harm to themselves and others simply because they are driven by their desires and blind to what is truly good. Christians are not immune to getting a corrupt heart and being blind to what is good, losing the ability to judge right from wrong concerning how they should act when faced with matters that cause distorted, perverted heightened feelings based on the type of force (greed, lust, envy, pride etc) that afflict and corrupt the heart.

Humans have known right from wrong from the moment God breathed the breath of life into man's nostrils. But just as it was back then (in the time of Genesis), Humans often have a tendency to point the finger at someone or something else. We say, That’s not fair because…or it’s your fault because, and so on. We burry the truth and then tell others that we do the things that are accepted as good by mankind, such as when we hurt someone and then tell them why it’s their fault. Things such as this run rampant in the church. Back in Genesis, after Adam and Eve bit the fruit, God came down and brought the word. Eve said it was the snakes fault, Adam said it was the woman’s fault and then he told God that he was at fault for giving him the woman. And then God said, ok…look, I told you people not to eat the fruit, therefore, it’s your fault… now, reverse the judgment you put on each other and take responsibility for the guilt in your heart.

If God did not come down and confront Adam and Eve then they would have been content with blaming their sins on anything or anyone but themselves, and they would have become more and more corrupt. The disciples did the same in the new testament for their brothers and sisters in Christ, they told them what God said about what they were doing so that they can take reasonability for sins and stop making excuses to justify their sin, causing themselves more and more harm. The word provided clarity, showing them truth because those who are deep in sin and under the influence of sinful forces (greed, lust, envy, pride etc) and have a damaged heart will not know what is right and good when faced with events that trigger heightened, distorted and perverted feelings as a result of the sinners particular heart (soul) disorder.

The question was asked, is loving yourself a sin? The answer is no and I a gave a reason why it is important to love ourselves the way God said we should. I was aware that Jesus is the standard for how we are to carry ourselves. But because of what I said in this post, I did not error when I said that “The word of God is the standard for how we should love ourselves.”

If one’s heart is damaged or corrupt and they continuously lie to themselves to justify their sins then they will eventually believe their own lies. The word of God will free them, it can be given to them in person with speech, heard audibly as through a broadcast or read from text such as the bible. It does not matter how the one who is in need of the word receives the word as long as the message they receive is overwhelming in line with the principles in the bible (does not have to be exact words). In this situation, because of the nature of the question, the fact that this is a forum, the fact that I was talking to a saved person and because of several other factors. I felt lead to recommend the bible as the best source to accomplish the job that needs to be done. The situation I have described in this post is one of the main functions and purposes for the word.

If we did not have the written word then we would have true chaos because who could prove that anyone should hold themselves liable for their own sins? Who could prove that those who sin hurt themselves when the person in pain is accustom to the pain and has buried the truth with lies? God gave the word (amongst other reasons), for those times when we can not act as Jesus would because we have strayed away from his nature, so we can be free and find our way back.

This can be a difficult thing to put into words just as with your post concerning the fact that the purpose of the bible is to become like Jesus not to be a reflection of every single detail in the bible without compromise.

I do not think we disagree, hopefully I did a better job at clarifying my thoughts this time.

I think we agree far more than we disagree. We're simply (to use to old illustration) approaching the elephant as blind men from different angles.

There's always a danger that focusing upon Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit, that we can go off the deep end into things like antinomianism and excess in spiritual practices (such as I think occurs at times in some factions of the Charismatic movement but certainly not limited to them.

I thnk that there are elements of Protestantism that historically reacted so strongly to things they saw (rightly I believe) within the Catholic Church of that time (and in fairness the ensuing counter reformation within the Catholic church following addressed many of those items as well) to where there can be a very subtle but still dangerous shift toward elevating the written word equal to or even above the Living Word. Christ is not an abstract concept. He's alive and desires to live in and through us. If we believe that, even with the risks that it carries, we need to learn to listen and move in that relationship with the Scriptures supporting that as they themselves point to Christ.

No more nits. I think we've both said our peace.

LOL ahah ok thanx guys i think i get it now but can anyone answer my questions about the trinity and love?

Hi CeT-To!

CeT-To wrote:It is concerning to God's love and the Trinity. An argument that i've herd that is been used to show that the triune God is the only possible God that there could be because since it says in the scripture "God is love " which i presume is the agape type of love which is a sort of love that gives and sacrifices. Yet my question is IF God is not triune then how can God be love? since before the creation there was only Him.

Also, how can agape be actualised before the creation? Since even tho God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit it feels like there no need to "give" and "sacrifice" inside the triuness of God since they are essentially God ( perfect in every way)

This looks more like a setup for an argument against the existence of God (not saying that you are doing that at all).

The passage that contains the scripture with the words “God is Love” tells us (amongst other things) how to recognize the children of God. This is how it starts…. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Concerning the following scripture, It’s one of God’s characteristics…Not what he is doing to himself. 1 John 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

As John said earlier, Love comes from God. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Inherent love is one of God’s characteristics and all children are made of traits they obtain from their parents. So if one does not have and display a measure of the type of love that is an intrinsic part of God’s makeup then how can that person be a child of God?

So 1 John 4:8 does not deal with God loving himself with agape love, defined as longsuffering loving-kindness for others...

Concerning God loving Himself, he does…

John 3:35 "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

Mark 1:11 and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

But as you know, he did have Jesus to give and sacrifice. Also, if God did not love himself in one or more areas then how could he be perfect? If we hate ourselves in an area it is because we feel that the area is imperfect (not good looking enough, not able to live up to another’s standards etc). God is perfect, has nothing to hate and he is the standard. Furthermore, as shown in the scriptures above, loving oneself is not a sin, conceit is wrong (unjustified high opinion of your qualities or abilities). But it is not possible for God to be conceited because he can do and is everything he claims.

CeT-To wrote:Is it required that "God is love" to BE God?

In short, absolutely positively yes. Inherent love (as defined by the word) is a must for a being to be the one and only I Am/Jesus.

I would have to see the argument you are referring to but I do not believe that a being must have love in order to be a god (lowercase g/fake inferior God). You can even have a fake god with it’s own version of love (not inherent love).

If they are saying that God (I Am/Jesus) is the one true God because of the inherent love he has then how does that prove anything? It’s true but it’s just using the bible as proof, which works for me due to the fact that I have an awesome personal relationship with God, so I know he exist and his word is true but how does it prove anything to those who do not know Jesus?

In any case, according to the bible, God does not contradict himself in anyway by loving himself or by having inherent love.

Hey J.davis so in what type of love does God love himself in his triuneness? Unless i'm mistaking ( which i could be lol) a lot of God's love described in the bible is agape . I'm not asking how he can agape others outside of Himself but rather how can the Father agape the Son and Holy Spirit & vice versa ?

A word used to describe what you're asking Cet-To that was used in the early church and is beginning to be reclaimed today is perichoresis. The image of that word with relationship to God is a form of dance where Father, Son and Holy Spirit have a relationship of complete love for one another. It is because God is triune and has this love within Himself, that God then created us and invites us to join to the greatest extent we are capable, that dance or relationship of Love.

God doesn't love out of need. God loves as an extension of who He is by His nature. Relationship and love are at the very core and fabric of God's identity and He created us in His image.

John 3:35 uses the word agape in terms of the Father loving the son. In other passages in John, the word Phileo is used.

Both qualities of love are present in that regard.