Evidence for God from Science

Hello again guys this thread is a extension on some of my other threads relating to how we know we are truly saved and the evidence of the Holy Spirit living within us. For now I'm under the same impression that most of you all here are that we can't fully rely on specific feelings or subjective religious experiences since feelings can indeed fool us, not to mention our feelings always change from time to time so we all know that is clearly not a good gauge to go by. Now another gauge that is certainly better and more biblical is to check yourself to see whether or not you are displaying the "Fruit of the Spirit" in your life to see whether or not you truly have the Holy Spirit and or are truly saved. Now even though practically all of us agree that this is a correct and biblical method, I'm still somewhat confused about this method. Because after all, can't true believers mess up and also struggle with sin problems from time to time? And also, can't unbelievers (followers of other religions, atheists and agnostics, or people who are not interested in Christ and Christianity) sometimes do good things or go through periods of doing good things that may give the impression that they are showing evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit? Surely can't unbelievers sometimes be very loving, peaceful, and show longsuffering towards others? And on the flip side, can't true believers go through times where they lose control and be hateful, angry, and impatient towards others as well? So even with using the "Fruit of the Spirit" test to see if we are truly in the faith seems to be more of a gray area than black and white or is it? I see how it can become a gray area I was just wondering how we can make it more of a clear black and white issue? Or is there any other ways to see whether or not you are saved and have the Holy Spirit living in you? Let me know what you think, thanks and GB.

There's no foolproof way to be sure of other people's Salvation. That isn't implied by the topic, but just reading through your post, you talk about looking at other believers a little. We'll never know other people's hearts.

As far as self-assurance, its true that there isn't always a feeling of it. But the reality of something isn't correlated to our perception of it in a lot of cases. However, I think there is evidence of Salvation that becomes apparent the longer one is a Christian. I know for myself, even in the midst of doubt, God always catches me at the perfect time with something I just... I dunno... I just know it was Him. I could give examples, but I'll save those until its not 1 in the morning where I am and I can think back a bit better.

We have to remember that God conforms us to himself, it isn't about us making ourselves like Christ. I mean, that's not to say that we don't have serious work to do ourselves, but conforming us to the likeness of Christ is a task only God can truly accomplish.

Derrick,

A lot of it is about obeying God...

Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

But also if love it reigns in our hearts...

1 John 4:7-8 7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 2:9-10 9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.

Hey Gman, I really like the loving God idea, that probably is a good way to tell, and even though I don't want to downplay obeying the commandments and being loving and moral toward other people, I do want to again point out the thing in my original post, that even though morality is a good thing and even expected among true believers, as far as a means of seeing whether or not one is a true believer it could be confusing because, true believers have times where they do not act as moral and as loving towards others and true unbelievers can sometimes go through times or stages where they tend to act very moral and loving towards others (a good example of this is unbelievers doing things for charity during this time of the year). But if it's ok, let me propose a possible way as far as knowing whether or not one is truly saved. This possible way has a bit to do with something I've heard many pastors mention in sermons of the fictional account of a person dying and being before God and God asking that person "why should I let you into heaven"? Now again I do want to point out that this account is fictional in the sense that is not how people are going to be judged or how believers are separated by non believers. But it serves as a way to tell whether or not one is truly saved, by having one ask themselves "why should God let me into heaven"? If we were to honestly say,really believe and expect to be in heaven based on what Christ has done and that we are saved by grace through faith. If we can honestly claim and believe that then that alone I think would serve as a good indicator of whether or not one is saved. And of course that is not to undermine the importance of morality, loving people, and the Fruit of the Spirit we should all strive to do the best we can but of course we have to keep in mind that we aren't saved because of these works.

derrick09 wrote:.... But if it's ok, let me propose a possible way as far as knowing whether or not one is truly saved. This possible way has a bit to do with something I've heard many pastors mention in sermons of the fictional account of a person dying and being before God and God asking that person "why should I let you into heaven"? Now again I do want to point out that this account is fictional in the sense that is not how people are going to be judged or how believers are separated by non believers. But it serves as a way to tell whether or not one is truly saved, by having one ask themselves "why should God let me into heaven"? If we were to honestly say,really believe and expect to be in heaven based on what Christ has done and that we are saved by grace through faith. If we can honestly claim and believe that then that alone I think would serve as a good indicator of whether or not one is saved. And of course that is not to undermine the importance of morality, loving people, and the Fruit of the Spirit we should all strive to do the best we can but of course we have to keep in mind that we aren't saved because of these works.

The best way to explore you idea and question's scenario "why should I let you into heaven?" would be found in your own answer to this.

So derrick09 - how would you answer this question for yourself?
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Well basically just like in my previous post, I would say because of Christ's sacrifice and because of God's grace, and that by my faith in God's grace and Christ's sacrifice I should then be able to get in. Now as far as I know, I'm not a theologian or a biblical scholar, but based on what I've learned thus far that is how we are saved.

Derrick its not only faith in Jesus's sacrifice but you also have to make him your Lord of your life, once you have faith in his resurrection and Jesus's Lordship then you are set and you will start changing over the years if not sooner! But remember he isn't JUST your Savior but also your Lord.

Romans 10:9

These threads can and do get controversial.

I think we have to be very careful when quoting scripture when we are talking about one's individual salvaiton. The answer is in the scripture for sure, but we have to rightly divide the Word. First to be sure that it is contextual. 2nd to see if it is dispensational. In other words, Does that verse specifically apply to me and my personal salvation?

Salvation is used in different contexts in the bible. Some verses speak about personal salvation from sin, and others cover a different topic. Some verses are addressed to one audience, some to others.

For example, I would contend that 1 John 2:9-10 9 is not a verse in and of itself that is about how one is individualy saved. But, is about one's fellowship as a saved person. Yes, the book of 1 John speaks to personal salvation, but also to fellowship as a believer. In other words experiencing and KNOWING. A confirming of His spirit in you. Let me give you an example. Let's say I quote, (1 John 2:5,6) "This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."
And then I claim that this verse is how we know we are saved. For one, it would appear to contradict (1 John 5:1) which is in the same book. I emphasize appear. It doesn't contradict. Not, if we rightly divide the Word of truth.
Do you live that way? All the time? Does anyone? If we carelessly take this verse, then no one is actually saved or savable. But if we rightly take it in context, we can see that faith is not about claims, but about a life yielded to the HS. Since this is just how Christ lived. Yielded 100%. And when we yield, we then KNOW that we are in Him. It is a self confirming thing. Yielding (or obeying) is the greatest expression of faith. It puts belief into action. It is then by yielding that God manifest Himself to us. (John 14:21) And then we don't have to have all these silly discussion on "how do you know? How much sin can you commit? How many good works do you need to have?" All that is irrelevant, because this comes in POWER.

And in the same way as illustrated above, if we take Hebrews 5 out of the context then we might come to view salvation not as believing on Christ, but by obeying certain laws or rules.

Or is there any other ways to see whether or not you are saved and have the Holy Spirit living in you?

This is one of those questions that people want an answer that satisfies their own curiosity. As opposed to leaning on the Word of God. As if having the Holy Spirit is some sort of bright light, angels singing moment. It isn't. But it is in power.
I can say is I know that the Spirit of God is at work in me. I knew it the moment I believed. I KNEW I was saved. And when I continue to have faith, and respond in that faith by yielding, it is confirmed to me. I don't know how to explain it anyway other than that.

The fruit of the spirit is never a matter of how much of the spirit do you have, but how much of you does the spirit have. Any believer knows that they can yield to the spirit or to the flesh. And you can't yield to something you don't have. Period.
That is why Paul says, "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." Gal. 5:16-17
So the fruit of the spirit is not something we manufacture, it is when we are yielded to the spirit. It isn't works. The fruit naturally spills out of a yielded life.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:As far as self-assurance, its true that there isn't always a feeling of it.

Correct, because feelings can deceive us, and feelings can change. I think this is a big reason why so many doubt their salvation. If your feelings are your primary filtering device then they will control your perceptions. If the faith in the Word of God is your primary filtering device, then your feelings will have to submit.
Our salvation is to be set on the rock of faith, not on the sinking sand of feelings.

Derrick its not only faith in Jesus's sacrifice but you also have to make him your Lord of your life

This answer begs another question.
What is 'making him Lord of your life?' Please let's be specific, because if true, eternity hangs on it.
I would just say that you can't "make" Jesus or God anything. Jesus is Lord. You are completely powerless to make your life anything.
Salvation is coming to a knowledge of who Christ is. Jesus Christ IS Lord. I think people have a much different idea and agenda when they start saying, "you have to MAKE Jesus Lord." And from experience I have found that people base 'making' Jesus Lord on some religious criteria and not on faith.

CeT-To wrote:Derrick its not only faith in Jesus's sacrifice but you also have to make him your Lord of your life

Yes, I know that, to trust in Christ's sacrifice is to acknowledge Him as God, and essentially if you are trusting in Christ to save you, it necessarily follows that you have Him as Lord of your life, to trust in Christ but deny He's God is next to insane, it wouldn't add up. But I'm also under the impression that you are leaning toward saying that we are saved by a faith/works combination and instead of just coming out and saying it flat out, you may be wanting to word it differently by calling it "making Him your Lord of your life", I hope you are not doing that but if you are, I wouldn't be surprised, many believers or people that call themselves believers that I have run into life,who like to try to get back at other people that have either intentionally or unintentionally did them wrong or as a way to manipulate people (i.e. charismatic groups or cult "pastors") like to put pressure on them by calling into question their salvation by citing that you are not doing enough or not showing enough evidence of a changed life (i.e. not enough good works) to be saved. And even though these angry believers may flat deny that they believe in a type of salvation by faith AND works system when asked about it, they still, in this roundabout way, either by this double talk, fancy or poetic language insert some sort of faith plus works system. I just hope you are not doing that in this case. And to quote and press the issue from Jlay,

jlay wrote: This answer begs another question.
What is 'making him Lord of your life?' Please let's be specific, because if true, eternity hangs on it.
I would just say that you can't "make" Jesus or God anything. Jesus is Lord. You are completely powerless to make your life anything.
Salvation is coming to a knowledge of who Christ is. Jesus Christ IS Lord. I think people have a much different idea and agenda when they start saying, "you have to MAKE Jesus Lord." And from experience I have found that people base 'making' Jesus Lord on some religious criteria and not on faith.

How would you answer this? Either way we need to find out accurate as possible how we truly become saved, especially if we are to articulate such a method to other people, lost souls hang in the

ahh i was only trying to help, i wasn't calling into question your salvation i'm sorry if it seemed that way . I guess this subject on works and faith i am quite split in the middle of ... i mean i know that i must have faith in Christ but the i see scripture like this > Matthew 7:22-3 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Sorry again it seems i'm also confused and i shouldn't have tried to help with this confused idea of it

derrick09 wrote:How would you answer this? Either way we need to find out accurate as possible how we truly become saved, especially if we are to articulate such a method to other people, lost souls hang in the

How one becomes saved is an oxymoron. No one becomes saved. At most one can cooperate with God's free saving grace but there's nothing anyone can do to unilaterally bring it about.

It's no big deal Cet_To You mentioned the Matthew 7:22-3 verses I may not be 100% for sure, but I think this may apply more to the extreme Chrismatic groups and folks like Benny Hinn who do all kinds of things that are easily interpreted to be miracles, driving out demons, and speaking prophesy and so on. In fact those people have been a major stumbling block in my walk with God over the years. Before I got into apologetics, I used to think many of the things people like Hinn did were in fact real, but after I learned about how many of them are con artists who live secretly sinful lives, at the time it caused me to think most Christians were either delusional at best wicked at worse and then I started to doubt if God was even real because of the likes of Hinn, Swaggert, Baker and so on. But thankfully since I've been involved in apologetics I've learned that people like them are irrelevant to whether or not God exists and whether or not Christianity is true. And even though things are far from perfect in my walk with God, they have got way way better since discovering apologetics, that in studying proper Christian doctrine.

Byblos wrote:

derrick09 wrote:How would you answer this? Either way we need to find out accurate as possible how we truly become saved, especially if we are to articulate such a method to other people, lost souls hang in the

How one becomes saved is an oxymoron. No one becomes saved. At most one can cooperate with God's free saving grace but there's nothing anyone can do to unilaterally bring it about.

Yes yes, I'm fully aware of that, I just wrote it out wrong, I'm not a English major. But yes, God does the saving we just, like you said, cooperate with God's free saving grace.

i mean i know that i must have faith in Christ but the i see scripture like this > Matthew 7:22-3 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

That is best understood by what I've already mentioned. Does that verse specifically apply to YOU and YOUR personal salvation?
If you don't understand how to rightly divide the word, then you are apt to misinterpret what salvation is to begin with, and how one receives it.

How one becomes saved is an oxymoron. No one becomes saved. At most one can cooperate with God's free saving grace but there's nothing anyone can do to unilaterally bring it about.

I guess that all depends on how you are using the terminology. Becoming something doesn't necessarily mean that you brought it about. Although faith is the difference betwee the lost and the saved. For by grace are you saved, through faith. The verse isn't just, "For by grace are you saved." Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, and you are welcome to elaborate if that is the case.
Being born again by its own phrasing imparts a sense of becoming something new. Whoever is in Chirst is a NEW creation. You became something new.

So one can be lost, and can then come to Christ in faith and become saved. Can you explain where you have issue with this sentence?

jlay wrote:

How one becomes saved is an oxymoron. No one becomes saved. At most one can cooperate with God's free saving grace but there's nothing anyone can do to unilaterally bring it about.

I guess that all depends on how you are using the terminology. Becoming something doesn't necessarily mean that you brought it about. Although faith is the difference betwee the lost and the saved. For by grace are you saved, through faith. The verse isn't just, "For by grace are you saved." Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, and you are welcome to elaborate if that is the case.
Being born again by its own phrasing imparts a sense of becoming something new. Whoever is in Chirst is a NEW creation. You became something new.

How does one acquire this faith (if any)?

jlay wrote:So one can be lost, and can then come to Christ in faith and become saved. Can you explain where you have issue with this sentence?

I have none but the same question applies, how does one obtain this saving faith?