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Lumping in OEC with EVO

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:46 am
by August
Well, it happened again...the moment you admit that you are unsure about the age of creation, you are immediately an evolutionist. The assertion was that OEC's and EVO's bring the same flawed assumptions to the discussion, so there really is no difference between them.

Of course, for me that is a gross oversimplification, and quite insulting as it implies that OEC's do not hold to the inerrancy of Scripture, and start off from a methodological naturalism point of view. Which is utter nonsense.

So which assumptions do you guys think are valid when discussing the age of creation?

Re: Lumping in OEC with EVO

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:38 am
by Canuckster1127
1. God is the author of both Scripture and the creator of this World.
2. All truth is God's truth.
3. Scripture and creation if they both have their source in God, must agree.
4. Science and Theology are man's perception and interpretation of Creation and Scripture and because of man's role in both, both are often incomplete and imperfect in their reconciling of these
5. Where science and theology disagree that is indicative of either or both's reliance upon man's limited knowlege and perspective.
6. When one is willing to examine only their understanding of science and not their understanding of scripture then often times, they have elevated their understanding to the level of scripture itself.

I'm open to the possibility as an OEC proponent that both my science and my theology may need to change. I believe that YEC proponents are on the whole sincere. I think however that the YEC position itself is both bad theology and bad science. Apart from the evidence in creation, which is overwhelming, it appears clear to me on the basis of the text independently that the days spoken of in Genesis 1 and 2 are more than 24 hours. How much more is in the end not of great importance.

Re: Lumping in OEC with EVO

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:05 am
by Silvertusk
With regards to creation I really dont have a problem with any interpretation now (although secretly I think some are clearly insane)

Which ever way you look at it - Evolution / Day-Age / Young Earth - Genesis can be intepretated any way. I lean towards one particular view myself - but what it really comes down to - is that I am no longer threatened by it - it does not shake my faith which way God did it.

I think that is the whole point. Sometimes people read too much science into a book that was clearly not meant as science manual as the audience at the time would not have known what on earth Moses (or who ever wrote Genesis) was on about if he told them exactly how creation started. I think it was more important to get across the message that God was behind it and a real measure of his love for the creation and how we have fallen - but also how the amazing story of our redemption begins.

Thats is my 2 pence anyway.

God Bless

SIlvertusk.

Re: Lumping in OEC with EVO

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:33 am
by jlay
Apart from the evidence in creation, which is overwhelming, it appears clear to me on the basis of the text independently that the days spoken of in Genesis 1 and 2 are more than 24 hours.
This is the only part of your statement that I would take exception with.

Apart from the evidence in creation, which is overwhelming,..
This is a very arbitrary statement. much if not most of this is not observable evidence. And evidence always requires a philosophical position to interpret from. Let's please be honest here. No one has exclusive rights to evidence. We all have the same evidence. It is not evidence, but interpretations that are at issue.
What we really need to say is "evidence interpreted under the secular worldview." Because unless you are a physicist, astronomer, etc. you are going to have to rely on interpretations of evidence, and not raw data itself.

One issue I have with fellow YECers is when they espouse YEC as orthodoxy. And this may get back to the original point in the thread. Personally, I have never been able to satisfy my mind with 24 days, simply because of how we measure a 24 hour day. And since creation days were passing before a sun existed it creates quite a puzzle. But I also know that this is a problem with my mind and the impossibility of observation, and not evidence per se.

I guess one of the biggest issues I have with some OEC positions is that when it comes down to matters of biblical authority versus secular interpretations of evidence, the latter often seems to win out. It often appears that the OEC view is trying to reconcile itself to the secular worldview. I know that sounds narrow minded. There is nothing wrong with considering the evidence. But this is not the problem I have. As we've seen demonstrated several times on this board recently. People saying, well if this argument fails, then I will adopt deism, or other silly notions like this. It is the apparent bowing to secular positions that concern me. This is happening in the theater of evolution. We know that it is a popular worldview to say that evolution is a fact. We know based on logic, reason and the nature of science that this is NOT an accurate or even a scientific statement. Yet, many in the faith community have bowed to this position. That is a fact. And thus they have compromised their faith. That now means that in their mind, the bible must yield to this worldview, or be rejected in one form or the other. Rejected as being a literal truth. (symbolic, etc.)Such as Adam being a literal human. Or rejected in total.

I'll give you an example out of history,in how authority is being compromised. I remember a thread where an apparent contradiction was mentioned between a date that Luke had used, versus a date that Josephus used. The natural inclination was to try and reconcile Luke's date to Josephus'. The secular world who mocks biblical infallibility was ironically considering Josephus, infallible. At least in regards to this date. Because this was being used as an example the bible was in error, and to PROVE something. This, despite the multitude of examples in Luke's writings that were verified. And yet until I mentioned it, no one even mentioned the idea of the possibility that Josephus had made an error. Instead believers were introducing all kinds of bizarre explanations. This is a telling sign to me that people might actually not have faith in what that claim to be certain and sure of.

Personally, I believe that there are OECers who do espouse a 'literal' interpretation. I know, because there are many here. Because of the points of contention I haven't reconciled as YECer, I am interested to hear and examine OEC positions. Whether it be gap theory, day-age, etc. To date, none have convinced me that they are a proper position to adopt in whole. Interesting that my main contention with most of these positions is exactly what Bart said when he mentioned bad theology and bad science.
There is certainly guilt on both sides. YECers have the history of anti-intellectualism, and several positions that were simply ridiculous. And although some of that still lingers, there is a great deal of scholarship today. Much of which is not considered here. Many of the recent discussions have demonstrated that to be the case. That people have rejected YEC, without even having a clear handle on many of the interpretations of the evidence, and how we answer many of the objections. Sad, because this is the same type of thinking that contributes to the very thing August started this thread over.

Re: Lumping in OEC with EVO

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:59 am
by zoegirl
August wrote:Well, it happened again...the moment you admit that you are unsure about the age of creation, you are immediately an evolutionist. The assertion was that OEC's and EVO's bring the same flawed assumptions to the discussion, so there really is no difference between them.

Of course, for me that is a gross oversimplification, and quite insulting as it implies that OEC's do not hold to the inerrancy of Scripture, and start off from a methodological naturalism point of view. Which is utter nonsense.

So which assumptions do you guys think are valid when discussing the age of creation?
Where did it happen? ON another post?

With regards to the *interpretations* and the conclusions one can draw from Genesis, it seems that these are very clear from scripture:

1. God has/had sovereign control over creation (He spoke, it happened)
2. His creative acts were planned
3. His creative acts were ordered in some periods of time (days)
4. His creative acts accomplished His purpose and were "good"...they fit His goals and His creation.
5. There was nothing that was unknown to His will....what ended in the end was part of His plan

These aren't exhaustive of course but simply what I thought of in responding right now. In regards to theistic evolution, this would eliminate those versions that allow for "surprises".

Considering that there *are* different meanings to the Hebrew words it seems a fair assumption or a fair way to approach interpreting Genesis with interpreting HIs creation. In other words, where God has left open the meaning of some words and since Genesis is not an exhaustive report on HOW God made the universe it is certainly fair to use the powers of observation that He Himself has given us to interpret How He did is, especially since many of the Hebrew words and phrases od have multiple meanings.

Insofar as the mixing of OEC and evolution, it simply reveals ignorance on the part on those that are using that argument.

Re: Lumping in OEC with EVO

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:17 am
by August
zoegirl wrote:
Where did it happen? ON another post?
Another board.

Re: Lumping in OEC with EVO

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:32 am
by zoegirl
ah....that's frustrating....if anything we should at least understand each other

Re: Lumping in OEC with EVO

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:02 am
by Canuckster1127
The final statement I make is more conclusive on my part and it certainly is my opinion which is subject to the elements I mentioned before. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I freely own, I carry with my point of view

I don't apologize for believing that current scientific understanding supports an OEC perspective more than a YEC. I don't think that it makes it a virtue to "buck" those conclusions to somehow seem less connected to an evolutionary perspective, which is what seems to be tied to what August is saying.

I've stated many times that I believe the strongest case for OEC is the Biblical text itself. I stand by that.

I think if you examine the main site and past threads you'll find much of the scholarship and science of YEC is addressed. I agree however, that for some time, at least the last 2 years here anyway, those elements have not been strongly addressed on our threads.

I think it's fair to note that for many, an OEC position can be arrived at and is arrived at by many who start with the science and seek to reconcile with the Scriptures. As all truth is God's truth, I think it's unfair to minimize the foundation of their position, in that manner as somehow "less spiritual" or "less valid". I agree in the end Revealed Truth must be adhered to, and if Scripture, rightly understood, teaches YEC then I for one, would accept it (and I did earlier in life when I believed that.) If general revelation through nature leads us to question an interpretation in scripture and on that basis our questioning leads us to see or believe that Scripture has been misunderstood in the past, then that doesn't impugn scripture or diminish it any way. Far too often that human interpretative elements is lumped in and elevated to the level of Scripture itself and it's when we do that (and I'll concede it can happen on the OEC perspective too although my bias clearly leads me to believe it has not happened to the same degree as in YEC), that we become bent on fitting all physical evidence into our preconceived framework.

It's a good reminder to step back occassionally and take inventory personally in terms of our own beliefs and ask where we might be doing that.