7777777 wrote:B. W. wrote:.....Not meaning to sound disrespectful - No, this is not pretzel twisting as you imply 7777777, it is untwisting the pretzel…
OK. You have gone from pretzel twisting to hoop jumping. Why is it so clear in The New Testament?
The Old Testament is just as clear as the New Testament. It is our English Translations of the Old Testament which are based upon sources hostile to the claims Jesus made about himself is one reason why people don’t see it in the Old Testament due to this kind of influence brought into English Translations. An example of this can be found in the NIV translation of Amos 4:11 and how it changes
Elohim – God into the personal pronoun
‘I’.
“I overthrew some of you as I [d] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD – Amos 4:11 NIV
NIV Footnote
d. Amos 4:11 Hebrew 'God'
This changes how one reads the text so you do not see the Trinity in the text. Look at the NASB reading the same passage below that retains Elohim in the text:
Amos 4:11, "I overthrew you, as God (Elohim) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares (Yahweh) the LORD.”
Verse eight makes it clear that Yahweh is doing to speaking here and note the use of Elohim in verse 11. Yahweh is using a Plural Noun – Elohim to describe how He destroyed those areas. There is a reason Yahweh did not use a personal pronoun ‘I’ here as He did so at the beginning of His statement in the text.
Yahweh is describing in truth how He destroyed the cities. He cannot lie. The Son and Holy Spirit were involved destroying those cities. In the Genesis 18 and 19 accounts, the theophanies of God appear as three men to Abraham. Again Two Malak Yahwehs left for the city Sodom. These were not two mere angelic beings but the Son and Holy Spirit. How can we know this for certain? Lot bowed to the two. Angelic beings of the Lord will not let you bow to them Rev 22:8-9 and Genesis 19:13 says that they will destroy these cities.
Who destroyed these cities? Amos answers…
Amos 4:11, "I overthrew you, as God (Elohim) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares (Yahweh) the LORD.”
Now note how traditional rabbinic translators, who are prone to be hostile to Jesus’ claims about himself, spin Genesis 18 and 19 as being two mere angelic beings sent to Sodom. How many Christian scholars kowtow to that line of OT interpretation despite what the bible says? That is why it is difficult to see the concept of the Trinity within the OT.
Again in Hosea 12:4 the NIV ends the verse reading ‘
Him’ instead of the Hebrew ‘
Us’
Hosea12:4-5, “He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there — 5 the LORD God Almighty, the LORD is his name of renown!” NIV
Compare with the NASB which follows the Hebrew well:
Hosea 12:4-5, “Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, 5 Even the LORD, the God of hosts, The LORD is His name.” NASB
Note verse 5 – even Yahweh, Elohim of Host, Yahweh is His name identifies that the angel – Malak - was no mere angelic being that wrestled Jacob but rather whom Verse 5 speaks of. The third person
US refers to the full Trinity of God manifested at Bethal as whom Jacob spoke too.
How can we be sure? In Genesis 35:7 is used the word –
haElohim in reference to Genesis 28:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19c where Jacob had his dream. Later in Genesis 35:1 Elohim tells him to go back to this place and get ready to meet the one whom He wrestled with and later identifies in Gen 35:9, 11c as Hosea 12:4-5 says.
You miss all this in the NIV translation of these two specific verses I mentioned (see closing remarks).
Another can be found in Malachi 2:10, “
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?” NASB
In the verses above and below Malachi 2:1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 13-16c, the word
You is used then in verse 10 it changes to
US then next verse 13 back to
You in the Hebrew text. Why? A possible 600 thru 10 centuries AD alteration of verse 10 by Masoretes translators hostile to whom Jesus claimed himself to be as a response to the early Church use of Malachi to help reveal who Jesus claimed Himself to be.
Look at the Septuagint version of the same text found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate the Masoretic translation written in the approx 200-100 BC time frame:
Mal 2:10, "
Have you not all one father? Did not one God create you? why have you forsaken every man his brother, to profane the covenant of your fathers?" LXX
The Messenger speaking was not a created being. (Note Malachi 2:7 - messenger is the word Malak the two words '
of the' are not in the Hebrew text so it should read Messenger Yahweh not
messenger of the Lord In the LXX the two words '
of the are implied and are not in the text either. The reading of
Messenger Yahweh is correct. Now understand why John wrote in John 1:1, 2, 3, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14c about who Jesus is – the Word bearing Yahweh who bears messages – does tasks, etc & etc)
That is why it is not so easy to find the Trinity within the OT… But it is there – thoroughly soaked within the pages of the OT nevertheless.
B. W. wrote:Closing Remarks:
This is not to suggest that the NIV or other English Translations are full of mistakes. It is difficult to translate foreign languages in ones native language. The NIV is a fine translation but like all translations the translators faced difficulties. It is best to use several translations.
If a person wants to see how the OT is thoroughly Orthodoxly Trinitarian, then all one need to do is use a Strongs concordance while reading the OT and color code or mark everywhere ‘God’ is used to tell the difference when (430) Elohim is used and (410) El is used. LORD written in Caps is the word Yahweh. As for the word haElohim, you need bible software and find the Hebrew spelling and search for it in using your software and highlight.
In my Bible, I have haElohim circled in green ink, El circled in Black Ink. Elohim, I left alone. This way, I can quickly indentify how the words are used. Then I noticed the use of third and second person speech used as I read. The more I read from the OT, the more I see the Trinity spoken about in the Shema - Deuteronomy 6:4-5
The more I wonder about how there is no one like Yahweh. The more He reveals from his Presence in way I cannot describe. It takes time to code your bible to indentify when haElohim, Elohim, El, LORD is used but doing so brings back to life the biblical writers intent – reveal and glorify the Lord.
The OT is so soaked with the doctrine of the divine orthodox Trinity, that despite efforts of Rabbinic Hebraic scholars and cultist who are hostile to the claims Jesus made about Himself, they cannot camouflage all the scriptural truth that the OT proclaims about Jesus through spin and changing a word here and there.
The translated versions of the Bible we have are more than adequate to uncover the truth about the Lord within the OT.
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