Evidence for God from Science

John 14:13-14 (New International Version, ©2010)
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 16:23-26 (New International Version, ©2010)
23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

Are we to believe God/Jesus will give us what we ask for?

There are just too many people who are really in need, good Christians, Christians who have sincere faith who ask for essentials, food, shelter, clothing, etc., who do not receive what they need.

I've read a lot of commentaries on this one and I can't come up with a reasonable answer. The explanation that comes up most of the time is that if what we ask is against the Father's will, we will not receive it -- we don't always get what we ask for, but this one does not work for me. What it suggests is that it is against God's will to feed and cloth His people.

I'm writing today to see if someone has an answer that makes sense.

Thank you.

Hi Christian2

God/Jesus will give us what we ask for, only if it is His will to do so. If it is not in His will, He will not. For example, he let Martha and Mary's brother Lazarus die only to bring him back to life to show something greater. What may appear to us as the illogic of God is always proven by God to be the wisdom of God because God, unlike us, knows all things. He sent believers out into the world to help the less fortunate, to feed the poor, take care of the sick, clothe the naked and comfort the fatherless and the widow. God however, has promised that He is going to return to comfort all who mourn and He has promised us eternal life if we believe and follow Him. Hope that helps.

Katabole wrote:Hi Christian2

God/Jesus will give us what we ask for, only if it is His will to do so. If it is not in His will, He will not. For example, he let Martha and Mary's brother Lazarus die only to bring him back to life to show something greater. What may appear to us as the illogic of God is always proven by God to be the wisdom of God because God, unlike us, knows all things. He sent believers out into the world to help the less fortunate, to feed the poor, take care of the sick, clothe the naked and comfort the fatherless and the widow. God however, has promised that He is going to return to comfort all who mourn and He has promised us eternal life if we believe and follow Him. Hope that helps.

I understand, but...

Matthew 7:

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Thanks.

Christian2 wrote: I understand, but...

Matthew 7:

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Thanks.

So then the question becomes, what are 'good gifts'. Are they what God would know to be 'good', or what we, in our limited understanding, reason, wisdom, and patience think to be 'good'.

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

In addition to context and exegesis we must be consistent in our reading. Not only do we need to know to whom are these things spoken, but what are they speaking of. Without going into a lot about who they are spoken to, let's just look at what is being spoken.

What is it that these people are to ask and seek for? And what is it that will be given to them if thy ask? Is it just random things. Is He painting with a broad brush, or is He speaking of a very specific thing?
Obviously this is one thought with three things mentioned. Asking, seeking, and knocking. And so are these things three seperate commands with three seperate outcomes, or three commands with the same outcome.
When Jesus says seek and you will find, what is it He is referring to? Is He speaking to arbitrary things, or to seeking and finding something specific? What about the door? Is the door just a general abstract reference, or something specific? I would conclude that in the seeking and opening Jesus is speaking to something specific. A specific thing to be found. And a specific door to be opened. So why would we interpret what to ask for as something different than what is to be sought, and what is to be opened? I would then conclude that He has something very intentional in mind that is to be asked for, sought and opened to this audience.

Then you must ask whether this thing is meant to be asked, sought and opened to you. Are you part of the intended audience?

The verses in John must then also be interpreted in their own context and exegesis. And we need to be careful not to muddy the water trying to apply one to the other. Even though there may be something related, we need to first see what the text says on its own.

There are just too many people who are really in need, good Christians, Christians who have sincere faith who ask for essentials, food, shelter, clothing, etc., who do not receive what they need.

I've read a lot of commentaries on this one and I can't come up with a reasonable answer. The explanation that comes up most of the time is that if what we ask is against the Father's will, we will not receive it -- we don't always get what we ask for, but this one does not work for me. What it suggests is that it is against God's will to feed and cloth His people.

Actually Jesus did promise to clothe and feed us but the condition was to put His righteousness and His Kingdom first and then these things will be added. Matthew 6:33. This is His conditional promise and how could we be sure that these 'good Christians' are meeting these conditions to qualify ?

What Suds brings up regards who it is written to. Is Matthew 6 written to the church?

jlay wrote:

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

In addition to context and exegesis we must be consistent in our reading. Not only do we need to know to whom are these things spoken, but what are they speaking of. Without going into a lot about who they are spoken to, let's just look at what is being spoken.

What is it that these people are to ask and seek for? And what is it that will be given to them if thy ask? Is it just random things. Is He painting with a broad brush, or is He speaking of a very specific thing?
Obviously this is one thought with three things mentioned. Asking, seeking, and knocking. And so are these things three seperate commands with three seperate outcomes, or three commands with the same outcome.
When Jesus says seek and you will find, what is it He is referring to? Is He speaking to arbitrary things, or to seeking and finding something specific? What about the door? Is the door just a general abstract reference, or something specific? I would conclude that in the seeking and opening Jesus is speaking to something specific. A specific thing to be found. And a specific door to be opened. So why would we interpret what to ask for as something different than what is to be sought, and what is to be opened? I would then conclude that He has something very intentional in mind that is to be asked for, sought and opened to this audience.

Then you must ask whether this thing is meant to be asked, sought and opened to you. Are you part of the intended audience?

The verses in John must then also be interpreted in their own context and exegesis. And we need to be careful not to muddy the water trying to apply one to the other. Even though there may be something related, we need to first see what the text says on its own.

The following were said to the disciples:

John 14:13-14 (New International Version, ©2010)
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 16:23-26 (New International Version, ©2010)
23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.

which would not apply for everyone. I will look at the others.

There are just too many people who are really in need, good Christians, Christians who have sincere faith who ask for essentials, food, shelter, clothing, etc., who do not receive what they need.

I understand what you're saying. However, you have to see it from this point of view too:

We ask for essentials in prayer. It's a normal thing to do, and God does want us to to this.

However, not enough of us as for HIM.

Look back to Jesus talking to the woman at the well. Jesus said that he IS the living water, the only water that will truly fill us up.

We do need food, physical food, to live...but we need food to LIVE, with Him in Heaven also.

He is our shelter. We are aliens to this world; it is not our true home.


I honestly don't know how much this helped, but I hope it did a bit. I think others have cleared it up scripturally, more than I, but this is just a different perspective.

God Bless

That was what killed it for me years ago. That scripture and others like it such as "fervent prayer availeth much". After I moved to another state things went horribly wrong for years. Job trouble, car trouble, all sorts of things. I took on different jobs and kept losing money till I lost the house I had and was forced to do what it took to move. I prayed dilligently for a decent car, and the one I got emediatly after (A Buick I called the Blue Bomber) was a great car-for two weeks, then it went through thousands in repairs and never ran right. We had marital problems, money problems, the whole nine yards till I was worn out praying and having it backfire. I wanted to raise my kids in a decent school, take them to church, etc. I tried to make sure everything I did was something right to pray for. At the time I also had step daughter who was horrible. She made efforts to break up the family and caused physical and very loud fights, including where I had to leave the home for a while, and very nearly got me arrested (the police could not find evidence she was telling the truth, and even the wife told them she jsut basicly wanted me to get in trouble.)

After several years of watching things fall apart I concluded two things, first that the bible had many fictions in it and that if God even existed he was not going to do anything for me. I told the wife finally that it was up to me to make a difference and stop expecting some miracle or help. She had a bible and I tossed it down in front of her and told her I was tired of fairy tales that contradicted reality. Prayer backfired every time and I got the opposite of what I prayed for.

Some of it still does not make sense to me,but since then I did come to realize that marrying the woman in the first place was not the right thing to do and I should have known better, which made it my fault to start with.

These days I'm more into research than church and so on, but at least that has yielded a few answers.

Gene

***"Bury them facing the enemy, that is how they died" TB***

God is not a vending machine. We don't put the right prayers and requests in and then place a demand upon God to get what we want out.

Part of growing in the Christian life is that as we become closer to God, His desires become ours. So, when we begin to intercede and pray to God we begin to actually pray for and desire those things that God wants to accomplish.

James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

Scripture is more than prooftexting. There are themes and balance to most everything. Humanly, we like to camp on those things that leave us to believe that God has sent Christ into the world and into our lives so what we can have money, prosperity, health and no struggles in our lives. Jesus never promised these things to us. In fact, we're not only subject to the same illnesses, accidents and struggles of this world that all people are subject to, but as believers and followers of Christ, we're even subject to persecution for doing right and belonging to Christ.

That's the reality. Christ doesn't necessarily save us from struggle, but He does walk with us through it, with the assurance that He has conquered death and the world and we can trust Him, even when humanly speaking, we don't get those things physically that we're tempted to think are what Jesus promises us. What he promises us relates first and foremost to His Kingdom which is not of this world.

I agree with Bart. I don't think I would feel very comfortable asking God for a car. I've asked God to watch over loved ones if he has the time and inclination to do so. But asking for a car, a house, wealth... I would feel a bit grubby doing this.
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That was what killed it for me years ago. That scripture and others like it such as "fervent prayer availeth much". After I moved to another state things went horribly wrong for years. Job trouble, car trouble, all sorts of things. I took on different jobs and kept losing money till I lost the house I had and was forced to do what it took to move. I prayed dilligently for a decent car, and the one I got emediatly after (A Buick I called the Blue Bomber) was a great car-for two weeks, then it went through thousands in repairs and never ran right. We had marital problems, money problems, the whole nine yards till I was worn out praying and having it backfire. I wanted to raise my kids in a decent school, take them to church, etc. I tried to make sure everything I did was something right to pray for. At the time I also had step daughter who was horrible. She made efforts to break up the family and caused physical and very loud fights, including where I had to leave the home for a while, and very nearly got me arrested (the police could not find evidence she was telling the truth, and even the wife told them she jsut basicly wanted me to get in trouble.)

After several years of watching things fall apart I concluded two things, first that the bible had many fictions in it and that if God even existed he was not going to do anything for me. I told the wife finally that it was up to me to make a difference and stop expecting some miracle or help. She had a bible and I tossed it down in front of her and told her I was tired of fairy tales that contradicted reality. Prayer backfired every time and I got the opposite of what I prayed for.

Some of it still does not make sense to me,but since then I did come to realize that marrying the woman in the first place was not the right thing to do and I should have known better, which made it my fault to start with.

These days I'm more into research than church and so on, but at least that has yielded a few answers.

Gene

Read this post on Sunday, but wanted to wait till today to respond. For one it doesn't say, that fervent prayer availith much. It says "effectual fervent prayer of a RIGHTEOUS man avialeth much." Muslims are some of the most fervent prayers in the world. However, not a one of them is righteous. There is only one righteous and that is Christ. And if one has not been made righteous in Christ then his prayer is impotent. Was the chaos in this home due to God's lack of response or due to the people who were in it?

So, you impune the Word of God as fairytale, and yet wonder why God has not bowed his knee to your circumstances. If there is a God, do you think He knew what your response would be? Would you trust God even in a Job like circumstance, or would you curse God and die? I think you've answered that question.
I can't help but have some personal questions. I am very curious how you came to marry this woman.
You say you had marital problems and money problems. I don't want to sound judgmental here, but if your going to air your dirty laundry, then I would hope you'd give us some candid feedback.
I can't help but wonder if your marriage was destined for failure from the start. It is clear that this woman already had children, which means she was either married at one time, or had children out of wedlock. Either way, that is a major concern, because God will not bless an unholy union. God will not violate His own character to appease you, or fix your mess. If you entered into marriage KNOWING it was contrary to God's will, then what do you think the results should be?

Obviously you have a lot of issues. So, who is to blame for your problems? Obviously you are either mad at God because He isn't doing what you think He ought to, or you've decided He just doesn't exist for the same reasons. The reasoning being, you prayed, things went in the crapper, therefore the God of the Bible doesn't exist. Fine. If it is the later, then who is to blame? Who made made your choices regarding your finances and relationships? I'm assuming you made those choices. And I would say that there are a series of choices that led up to where you are today. I haven't read anything in this Bible that you tossed on the table, that indicates that God is here to negate your choices or simply act like a genie and grant you every wish. So, if the God of the Bible is real, then just how did you conclude that your circumstances negate His existance?

So, regarding the marriage. Was this woman previously married? Were you previously married? Was she a born again Christian. Are you? If yes, then what is your testimony?

I wasn't "airing my dirty laundrey" as you put it, but if that's how it appears, then why make it worse by elaborating on the situation? My whole point was my own observations and where it led me. I took responsibilty for my own actions, as I stated. It's sort of funny how people tell me all the time about God's blessings and how he does things for them. Yet by the same token, when things DON'T happen I'm told God is not my personal Genei and vending machine. i've heard that before.

At the time that I used to be such a hardcore Christian I was doing everything in my ability to be right as best I could. There are so many formulas. Ask ten Christians and you get ten answers. Funny, i used to listen to Norma Dearing when she was on the radio with her prayer show, and I had two or three long conversations with her. She was really cool. I was sad when she was not on the radio. I wonder how those prayers ended up.

daywalker1966 wrote:I wasn't "airing my dirty laundrey" as you put it, but if that's how it appears, then why make it worse by elaborating on the situation? My whole point was my own observations and where it led me. I took responsibilty for my own actions, as I stated. It's sort of funny how people tell me all the time about God's blessings and how he does things for them. Yet by the same token, when things DON'T happen I'm told God is not my personal Genei and vending machine. i've heard that before.

At the time that I used to be such a hardcore Christian I was doing everything in my ability to be right as best I could. There are so many formulas. Ask ten Christians and you get ten answers. Funny, i used to listen to Norma Dearing when she was on the radio with her prayer show, and I had two or three long conversations with her. She was really cool. I was sad when she was not on the radio. I wonder how those prayers ended up.

Gene, there's polar opposites on this issue, as you note, from different "camps" within Christianity. The prosperity Gospel, as it's called, is a common one with charismatic circles and it's also a pretty strong theme for public radio and TV evangelists. The reason for that, in my opinion, is that it tells people what they want to hear and works upon their personal greed, and also on their pains that they're looking to have alleviated.

I'm not denying what you've heard or how you've been taught in different circles. Truth is, I have been taught a great deal of that as well. I went to a charismatic university that is associated with probably the largest evangelistic organization that promotes the prosperity gospel and "seed faith." The real irony of it, was I was Biblical Studies major and often times in class following a chapel service where this type of gospel was preached, we'd go over the passages in class and often determine why they were wrong and unbiblical. Not long after I graduated most of the school's teachers were ousted in a "house cleaning" to restore the teaching of the organization to the classroom. They couldn't find people with the credentials needed to maintain their accredidation in the Graduate Biblical Studies program (I was in the under-graduate but many of the teachers were shared.) So they lost their accredidation. Of course, they presented that to students and supporters as evidence of their suffering for the truth.

I don't think it's quite as cut and dried as asking 10 Christians and getting 10 different opinions. The scope of opinion on this is pretty narrow although there can be variations within "camps."

Christians are either to be blessed physically and financially in every area of their lives in the here and now, or they are blessed in the context of the Kingdom of God which Jesus says is not of this world. Jesus seemed to make a pretty strong point of this in the case where a rich young ruler came to him asking for teaching on what to do to be saved and Jesus told him to sell all he had and give to the poor. It doesn't sound like Jesus was tickling peoples ears.

Now the truth to is that throughout the ages there have been times and places where Christians have been very wealthy and powerful as well as times that it's been a crime to be a Christian and the penalty for being caught was suffering and even death. In fact, you can find those situations in different parts of the world right now. Ironically, Church History demonstrates that it's not in places and times of prosperity and success that Christianity flourishes. It's in the midst of persecution and high cost. That's playing out today as most of the growth in the world of people taking Christ as their saviour is in Third World countries and places like Europe and now the US and Canada, are diminishing in terms of the number of people who identify themselves as Christian.

God can and I believe often does intervene on behalf of His children. However, God is not obligated to do so, and often it is presumably in His greater will or plan to allow things to occur which while temporally painful and harmful to His children, ties into His greater plan. Then too, God often doesn't save us from the consequences of our own decision or just the risks that apply to everyone because of the fallen world we live in. Our promise relates first and foremost to the Kingdom of God which is not the Kingdoms of this World. God promises us an eternity with Him through Christ and we receive many blessings that are tastes or foreshadowings of what is in store, but we may very well as believers have great pain, difficulties and suffering in this life. What we have is the Holy Spirit of God Who with us as a comforter and who provides us grace and strength as we need it for the challenges of today.

Those who look to the passage you cite, of asking God for anything in His name, focus on the anything part and imagine that God is their lottery ticket. Those who understand and love God outside of what He can do for them temporarly, focus on the "in my name" part and submit their own wills and desires aside and ask God to show them even what to ask for, because they love God and want what He wants. So they are seeking to ask God to do through them what God already wants to do.

There's a world of difference between what part you focus on. One is using God as the magic genie, and the other is walking according to God's plans and will.

Look at all of Scripture and focus on those passages you'll never hear at a health and wealth ministry. Jesus spoke of persecution, martyrdom and death as the lot of many who followed him. Of the 12 apostles (including Paul) Church History tells us that only one, John, died a natural death. I for one, am not thrilled about that truth and the hard sayings of Christ from a human and natural perspective. I'd rather have my needs and at least some of my wants provided. But I have to be true to what I believe Jesus said and what the whole counsel of Scripture shows.

Anyway, I hope that helps. It's possible to come to the conclusion I reflected above even though it's very different than what I was taught earlier in life. Take a look for yourself. Read one of the Gospels all the way through (They're far shorter than most novels) and take note of what Jesus said and I think you'll find it's not hard to see that what I've shared above is a better picture of it than the Health and Wealth Gospel of today.