Evidence for God from Science

If a non Christian person goes under gender reassignment surgery and then later on converts to become a Christian, should that person continue living as their new gender? What should they do?

After this life, we won't be married nor given in marriage; which is to suggest the possibility that a lot of what we understand about human sexuality does not necessarily translate into eternity. I think this issue is probably more of a stumbling block the more someone is obsessed with sexuality to the point of elevating sexual identity over that of identity in Christ.

If I were in that situation, I would probably try to revert as best as possible, bearing whatever physical consequences came with the previous decision. However, the flesh is going in the ground sooner or later so not to worry.

Either way, God isn't shamed by our mistakes - He knows how to take care of His own.

- Nathan

I have often wondered about similar cases where previous sins have post-salvation consequences, like a Mormon who marries several wives, possibly even having children by them, and then becomes a Christian. What does he do? Remain a polygamist or divorce some of his wives?

Looking forward to some ideas on this...

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask why this is definitively a sin. Or rather, would there be some cases in which this is not sinful? If we consider some instances of gender confusion to be valid (Klinefelter's syndrome, hormone imbalances, chromosomal issues ]) we understand the idea that something happened physically or chemically that was wrong. Why isn't this considered a type of disease, such as depression or bipolar? That's treatable.

Please understand, I am not advocating for all cases of operations, merely that perhaps the identity in Christ would not immediately mean having to undergo surgery to reverse the changes. I

Life is all about interesting tensions like these. On the one hand, you have the desire to live to honor God and avoid sin, but then if you push it hard enough you can make anything to be the unforgivable sin.

God sees the heart. One could say that sin starts in there as well. So is a repentant person who had previous gender modifications going to catch God's wrath because they didn't schedule a cosmetic surgery appointment yet?

One of my former pastors indicated that God's mercy is previous - such as God leading Israel out of bondage prior to the commandments.

- Nathan

musician wrote:After this life, we won't be married nor given in marriage; which is to suggest the possibility that a lot of what we understand about human sexuality does not necessarily translate into eternity.

I disagree, while I acknowledge these passages, I think it disregards the "plan" as set out in the beginning.

Genesis 2:18 wrote:Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

I'm not sure how the 'no marriage' thing will be played out, but the Genesis acct doesn't mention that Adam and Eve were married nor given in marriage. I don't think it's going to be a huge 'singles' gathering up in heaven. IMHO, anyway.
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Telstra Robs wrote:If a non Christian person goes under gender reassignment surgery and then later on converts to become a Christian, should that person continue living as their new gender? What should they do?

You are assuming that there are transsexuals. Basically they can be transsexual if they have surgery or take hormones. So if they stop taking hormones they will go back to their natural position whatever it was before the hormones. As for the surgery, they could go back for surgery again as well. Or just leave it... Basically go back to the way God made you..

We have something like this in our own church. A person who didn't chose to have an operation born with a physical condition that blurs the lines. She was initially a he when she joined the church. And after much counseling decided to live as a woman.

That is a big difference from people who are born distinctly male or female and mutilate their bodies. I can only thank God that his grace is greater. But those people, even if saved, will reap the effects of their choices. Just as someone who contracts AIDS and then is saved will suffer even though they are forgiven.

BavarianWheels wrote:

musician wrote:After this life, we won't be married nor given in marriage; which is to suggest the possibility that a lot of what we understand about human sexuality does not necessarily translate into eternity.

I disagree, while I acknowledge these passages, I think it disregards the "plan" as set out in the beginning.

That's as may be, but Adam and Eve also disregarded the "plan" and introduced death into the equation. I'm no gnostic by any stretch, but if we are dwelling in vessels and temples that are going to pass away and be remade...

In any event, what I said reads a lot more positive than I meant it. I'm not saying that's the interpretation for those verses, only that my working framework reads this passage as an indicator that we really make a much bigger deal about sexuality than is necessary; with many anti-theists making it as an idol at the extreme of the spectrum.

In addition, the previous verses in Matthew 22, to my mind, have a lot in common with the question at the beginning of this thread, and lead me to make the assumptions that I do.

- Nathan

BavarianWheels wrote:I'm not sure how the 'no marriage' thing will be played out, but the Genesis acct doesn't mention that Adam and Eve were married nor given in marriage.

Almost forgot...

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

I have no idea what it's going to be like either, but if someone is letting problems with their sexual identity get in the way of getting closer with God, I would tend to advise them as I previously posted - not to lower the gift of marriage, but to elevate the relationship with God.

- Nathan

Gman wrote:

Telstra Robs wrote:If a non Christian person goes under gender reassignment surgery and then later on converts to become a Christian, should that person continue living as their new gender? What should they do?

You are assuming that there are transsexuals. Basically they can be transsexual if they have surgery or take hormones. So if they stop taking hormones they will go back to their natural position whatever it was before the hormones. As for the surgery, they could go back for surgery again as well. Or just leave it... Basically go back to the way God made you..

Another question: lets say a guy goes under gender reassignment surgery and has had his testes removed and has had his penis converted. These things certainly won't grow back. If they can't afford surgery would they take male hormones and attempt to live as a male or continue attempting to live like a female?
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zoegirl wrote:I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask why this is definitively a sin. Or rather, would there be some cases in which this is not sinful? If we consider some instances of gender confusion to be valid (Klinefelter's syndrome, hormone imbalances, chromosomal issues ]) we understand the idea that something happened physically or chemically that was wrong. Why isn't this considered a type of disease, such as depression or bipolar? That's treatable.

Please understand, I am not advocating for all cases of operations, merely that perhaps the identity in Christ would not immediately mean having to undergo surgery to reverse the changes. I

If Deuteronomy 22:5 says that simply dressing like the opposite sex is considered abomination, what would having an operation to change your outer physical appearance to that of a female or visa versa be like?

Furthermore, there are people who were transexuals (for example Charles Kane, who used to be Samantha Kane, who used to be Sam Hashimi) who have advocated that "the NHS should halt all sex change operations" (the NHS is the British National Health Service). A 16 year old Brittish boy to be one of the youngest to go under gender reassignment surgery stated "The doctors have said I need the surgery for my own peace of mind."[1][2]

[1]http://deaconforlife.blogspot.com/2010/ ... -back.html
[2]http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/st ... nment.html

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I'm sorry if my question came across as whether or not they should change physically. My main question was whether or not they should act as a male or a female (act as the gender assigned at birth).

I really believe that God sees the heart and which that person holds higher (He or the gender). I think that some of this stems from being so blessed (spoiled even) in the western world that we even have time to be worried about being affirmed, accepted, and even respected for who we want to be seen as.

I think the person who surrenders to God, including whatever gender turmoil may attend their lives, will take the scripture you have mentioned and go with it back to where they started.

I also think that God will meet the honest seeker where they are at. His mercy has been shown to be like that. Go and sin no more

Telstra Robs wrote:

Gman wrote:

Telstra Robs wrote:If a non Christian person goes under gender reassignment surgery and then later on converts to become a Christian, should that person continue living as their new gender? What should they do?

You are assuming that there are transsexuals. Basically they can be transsexual if they have surgery or take hormones. So if they stop taking hormones they will go back to their natural position whatever it was before the hormones. As for the surgery, they could go back for surgery again as well. Or just leave it... Basically go back to the way God made you..

Another question: lets say a guy goes under gender reassignment surgery and has had his testes removed and has had his penis converted. These things certainly won't grow back. If they can't afford surgery would they take male hormones and attempt to live as a male or continue attempting to live like a female?

They don't need to take any hormones.. Their body would just go back to it's natural state. So if they were born a male or female, they would just go back to that natural state. As far as body parts, people would often castrate themselves like the eunuchs, or wouldn't even have sex (in observance of God).. So it really doesn't matter about the "parts." Again, I would stress that they go back to the natural sex they were born in (how God made them), whether it be male or female, and ask God for forgiveness..

In other words we don't dictate to God how we "want" to live our lives, we just be content how God made us.. Stop worrying about it..

I guess my question was more to the idea of "correcting" what God had made. We approach this problem as if God could not make mistakes and that by undergoing operations we are "mutilating" God's creation. And yet clearly there *are* mistakes in body: any other deformity and we are looking at corrective surgery. Diseases we understand we try to treat/cure.

Why can't there be diseases of gender identify? (Again, not saying there are necessarily, just what makes us so sure as Christians that there are problems genetically that cause problems in identity? and if there are, why are we so quick to declare these problems unfixable?) I know there are some issue as well with embryological development where the child can be chromosomally one gender and yet hormonally another.

Musician I do agree with your ideas as well.

zoegirl wrote:I guess my question was more to the idea of "correcting" what God had made. We approach this problem as if God could not make mistakes and that by undergoing operations we are "mutilating" God's creation. And yet clearly there *are* mistakes in body: any other deformity and we are looking at corrective surgery. Diseases we understand we try to treat/cure.

Why can't there be diseases of gender identify? (Again, not saying there are necessarily, just what makes us so sure as Christians that there are problems genetically that cause problems in identity? and if there are, why are we so quick to declare these problems unfixable?) I know there are some issue as well with embryological development where the child can be chromosomally one gender and yet hormonally another.

Musician I do agree with your ideas as well.

It seems like a common modern attitude to have towards any abnormal behavior is to label it some sort of disease, psychosis, or some other psychological problem. I think a problem with that approach is that it minimizes the reality of sin. We are all fallen, imperfect beings with insurmountable (on our own) flaws. So, I agree that people might have an inclination to 'confuse gender', but they could just as easily have an inclination to lust after people of the opposite sex, desire to steal something, hate with murder in their heart, etc.

Sin often has physical manifestations, and I believe that some of the psychological illnesses or problems come from sin's effect on the world. It just feels sometimes like we sanitize sin's gravity by defining its effects as illness.