Evidence for God from Science

When Jesus returns in the last days, He is going to present the church to Himself without spot or wrinkle (Eph. 5:27 NASU). If that is the case, then the church must have spots and wrinkles right now.

God is going to equip us to do our own laundry. He will extend His grace and truth to us so that we can examine our lives in comparison to how He wants us to live. He will reveal His truth to us so that we can see what He expects of us and give us His grace to enable us to become the people He desires.

Now the definition of “grace” is God extending or giving to us something that is not earned or deserved. His grace gives us a divine gratuity, a free gift. The Greek word for this free gift is “charisma”. The gifts (charisma) of the Holy Spirit are really God’s grace extended to us. The employment of these gifts will cause the body of Christ to grow to maturity in all holiness and blamelessness. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to each one of us for the manifestation, bestowment, and expression of the Holy Spirit for the common good.

God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues (1Cor. 12:28 NASU). The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the common good of the body of Christ. They are for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:12-13 NASU).

The Holy Spirit distributes His gifts as He wills. All of the gifts are given by God.

Reading the opinions expressed in the topics: “Speaking in Tongues,” “Please define Speaking in Tongues,” “Glossolalia, Is it biblical?” “Holy Spirit Baptism and Tongues,” “Speaking in Tounges (sic)” leads to the conclusion that we all have not yet “attained to the unity of the faith”. The saints still need equipping to build up the body of Christ. Since we have not attained to the unity of the faith, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, all of the gifts, have to be in operation today. That includes the “charisma” of speaking in tongues and the “charisma” of interpretation of tongues.

The apostle Paul wrote in 1Cor. 12:24-27, that we are all members of the body of Christ. He said that God has placed each one of us in the body as He wills. Some are given more honor by God and some not so much. But we, the members, should have the same care for each other to avoid causing a division in the body (v. 25).

What then, is there division in the body of Christ? The potential for division is there when words such as: “gibberish,” “nonsense,” “mumblings,” “foolishness,” “babbling,” “over rated,” “not biblical,” and “harmless oddity” are used to describe the gift of speaking in tongues and the practice of praying in the spirit in the above mentioned topics.

The Bible says that our words have power. “Death and life are in the power of the tongue” (Prov. 18:21 NASU). We will have to give an account of what we speak. "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:36-37 NASU). We need to be very careful when describing the things of God. Think about it-these words denigrate and besmirch a gift given to us by the Holy Spirit. Some even attributed this gift to the workings of the devil. This borders on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Just because the words of the speaker are not familiar, doesn’t mean that it’s not a language. Let me give an example: You’re walking behind a man who is speaking words to himself that you do not recognize. You might say he’s speaking “gibberish” until he turns the corner. There he meets his Hopi friend and they begin speaking the same words you heard before. They are conversing in Tewa-their native language. The apostle Paul said that there are a great many languages in the world, and none are without meaning.

The words used to describe brothers and sisters who are living in this gift are shameful. They are said to be “grandstanding,” “showing off,” or “trying to be super spiritual.” What gives us the right to judge the speaker’s motivation (heart)? Instead, should we not pray and ask God to give the interpretation? Maybe even to us? He just might to do it to build our faith, the speaker’s faith and the faith of the entire assembly! If there’s an interpretation, after the service let's go and encourage the speaker and thank him for being faithful to edify the body. If no interpretation, let the leaders of the assembly coach the speaker about being out of order and let's pray for him anyway. No one is perfect, so why not go to the brother or sister and speak words of edification, exhortation and consolation. That is exactly what Paul said the gift of prophecy is (1Cor. 14:3) and he said to earnestly desire to prophesy.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit did not cease. They are here to stay. Put away preconceived ideas and hear the truth of God's word. We need to learn to accept them even if we don’t understand them. Encourage one another to earnestly desire spiritual gifts for the service to and the edification and maturation of the body of Christ.

Don’t be a spot and continue to berate God’s “charisma”-His grace and gifts. Don’t be a wrinkle by judging another’s participation in the gifts of God. Cleanse yourselves (all members of the body of Christ). Do your laundry before God has to do it for you. Wrinkles can be smoothed but spots have to be removed.

There's an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the horizon.

Finally, brethren, “let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near” (Heb. 10:22-25 NASU).

With all due respect, I have to disagree, and the issue is no small matter (having been in the charismatic camp myself at one time).

If you are referring to the revelational gifts (and you do seem to point out tongues and prophecy in particular), they have ceased as proven by the following:

1.) Tongues are a form of prophecy (Acts 2:16-17). Therefore, whatever conclusion we draw concerning prophecy applies to tongues also.

2.) Prophecy is inerrant, infallible, and authoritative (Deut. 18:18-22). It is God speaking through the mouth of the prophet (Deut. 18:18). Any errors results in death for the false prophet (Deut. 18:20) for attributing lies to God. (I dare say that if we were to re-enact that civil law, the charismatic movement would disappear very quickly.) Prophecy is the very word of God, and anything else is, by definition, not inspired prophecy (the gift).

3.) All inspired prophecy ceased with the close of the canon (Rev. 22:18, Daniel 9:24, Jude 1:3). The Bible is the complete word of God, and nothing can be added to it any way shape or form.

Therefore, the revelational gifts have ceased, as we have the complete revelation of God in the Scriptures, once for all delivered to the saints.

I also have to point out that, as a matter of common observation, the practice of the gifts today bare no resemblance to the biblical version. In addition, according to Scriptures, ALL Christians have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, or else Peter was mistaken in Acts 2:38-39. Charismatics seems to believe in two classes of Christians, the regular Christians like me, and then the "Spirit-filled" Christians. (Been there, Done that). Scripture knows of no such distinction, and it is a shame to see the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" hijacked this way for a select few.

BTW: Preaching is a form of "uninspired" prophecy, but that clearly is not what you are referring to. If we want inspired prophecy today, open the Bible and read it, because that is the only place you will find it.

puritan lad wrote:With all due respect, I have to disagree, and the issue is no small matter (having been in the charismatic camp myself at one time).

If you are referring to the revelational gifts (and you do seem to point out tongues and prophecy in particular), they have ceased as proven by the following:

1.) Tongues are a form of prophecy (Acts 2:16-17). Therefore, whatever conclusion we draw concerning prophecy applies to tongues also.

2.) Prophecy is inerrant, infallible, and authoritative (Deut. 18:18-22). It is God speaking through the mouth of the prophet (Deut. 18:18). Any errors results in death for the false prophet (Deut. 18:20) for attributing lies to God. (I dare say that if we were to re-enact that civil law, the charismatic movement would disappear very quickly.) Prophecy is the very word of God, and anything else is, by definition, not inspired prophecy (the gift).

3.) All inspired prophecy ceased with the close of the canon (Rev. 22:18, Daniel 9:24, Jude 1:3). The Bible is the complete word of God, and nothing can be added to it any way shape or form.

Therefore, the revelational gifts have ceased, as we have the complete revelation of God in the Scriptures, once for all delivered to the saints.

I also have to point out that, as a matter of common observation, the practice of the gifts today bare no resemblance to the biblical version. In addition, according to Scriptures, ALL Christians have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, or else Peter was mistaken in Acts 2:38-39. Charismatics seems to believe in two classes of Christians, the regular Christians like me, and then the "Spirit-filled" Christians. (Been there, Done that). Scripture knows of no such distinction, and it is a shame to see the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" hijacked this way for a select few.

BTW: Preaching is a form of "uninspired" prophecy, but that clearly is not what you are referring to. If we want inspired prophecy today, open the Bible and read it, because that is the only place you will find it.

Thank you for your response. If we use your reasoning, if I can prove that prophecy is for today, then tongues is also for today. You used Acts 2:16-17 to establish that tongues is a form of prophecy, but does it? Peter quotes the prophet Joel to establish what? It was to point out that the apostles were not drunk but that the Holy Spirit had been poured out on them. Acts 2:14-17

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
KJV

It's interesting to note that the verses that you chose, actually prove you wrong. Read v. 17 again. Notice that Joel and Peter said specifically that "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy". When? In the last days. So prophecy will be restarted (if indeed it has ceased) in the last days (of which we're in).

You cite three verses to establish that prophecy has ceased and that the canon of scripture is closed.

1. Rev. 22:18: The book that John refers to is the book of Revelation...don't add to this book (of Revelation)...don't take away from this book (of Revelation). As far as I know, the scriptures had yet to be canonized.
2. Dan.9:24: Prophecy will cease at the end of the seventy weeks of years, but has the seventy weeks been completed? If so, then the antichrist has confirmed the treaty with the many, the Abomination of Desolation has occurred and Jesus has returned to earth and begun to rule in His millennial kingdom (Da 9:27).
3. Jude 3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. KJV

Jude is exhorting to contend for the gospel (saved by grace through faith) which Jesus delivered once through the apostles. Jude 4-5:

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.KJV

I also have to point out that, as a matter of common observation, the practice of the gifts today bare no resemblance to the biblical version. In addition, according to Scriptures, ALL Christians have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, or else Peter was mistaken in Acts 2:38-39. Charismatics seems to believe in two classes of Christians, the regular Christians like me, and then the "Spirit-filled" Christians. (Been there, Done that). Scripture knows of no such distinction, and it is a shame to see the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" hijacked this way for a select few.

Could you please describe the biblical version of Paul praying the spirit 1 Cor 14:14-15? It looks like a believer praying and singing in the spirit today.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. KJV

You quoted Acts 2:38-39 to establish that believers are BAPTIZED in the Holy Ghost. The way I read it, Peter establishes my point that all members of the body of Christ should receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38-39:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. KJV

The word for "gift" means a gratuity in the Greek. That's what I maintained in my original post.

I can't speak for all Charismatics, but I believe that all believers are filled with the Holy Spirit and all have the mandate to actively participate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit to bring the body of Christ to maturity as I said in my original post.

"In the last days. So prophecy will be restarted (if indeed it has ceased) in the last days (of which we're in)."

No, we are not. The Apostles were in the "last days", ie. the last days before God's Judgment upon Old Covenant Israel.

Romans 13:11-12 - "You know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; the night is far gone, the day is at hand."

1 Corianthians 7:29-31 - "Brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away."

1 Corinthians 10:11 - "On [us] the ends of the ages have come."

Philippians 4:5 - "The Lord is at hand."

James 5:8-9 - "The coming of the Lord is at hand. ... Behold, the Judge is standing at the door."

1 Peter 4:7 - "The end of all things is at hand."

1 John 2:18 - "It is the last hour ... we know that it is the last hour."

Indeed, this is verified by Peter in Acts, who says that "this (Day of Pentecost) is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:" (Acts 2:16), and then proceeds to quote the entire prophecy. At no point did Peter suggest that any portion of Joel's prophecy would wait another 2,000 years to see it's fulfillment.

You cite three verses to establish that prophecy has ceased and that the canon of scripture is closed.

1. Rev. 22:18: The book that John refers to is the book of Revelation...don't add to this book (of Revelation)...don't take away from this book (of Revelation). As for as I know, the scriptures had yet to be canonized.

I would disagree, but it really doesn't matter. The point is that the canon is closed (whether it be with the completion of Revelation, or with the entire Bible), and therefore no more prophecy can be added.

"2. Dan.9:24: Prophecy will cease at the end of the seventy weeks of years, but has the seventy weeks been completed? If so, then the antichrist has confirmed the treaty with the many, the Abomination of Desolation has occurred and Jesus has returned to earth and begun to rule in His millennial kingdom (Da 9:27).

Daniel 9 makes no mention of antichrist or a millennial kingdom. And if it hasn't been completed yet, then Daniel was a false prophet, since the 490 years have already passed. It was Christ who comfirmed the covenant with many (Matthew 26:28), identified the Abomination of Desolation as the Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (Compare Matthew 24:15-21 with Luke 21:20-24), and is the prince who "came shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". Therefore, since Daniel 9 has been fulfilled, then vision and prophecy has been sealed up.

As for an "unknown tongue", that could be any foreign language, not the stuff that we see today.

"You quoted Acts 2:38-39 to establish that believers are BAPTIZED in the Holy Ghost. The way I read it, Peter establishes my point that all members of the body of Christ should receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38-39:"

Except Peter makes no mention of the gifts, other than the gift of the Holy Ghost, ie. the Holy Ghost Himself being the gift. Instead he tells us that all Christians, "as many as our Lord shall call", are promised the Holy Ghost. All who repent and are baptize SHALL ("will"; not "should" or "might"), but SHALL receive the Holy Ghost. In other words, it is impossible for a Christian not to receive it, for it is a guaranteed promise. So if there are any Christians who have not been baptized in the Holy Ghost, then this passage is false. The Holy Spirit is not some second blessing that comes after salvation for those who "seek" it, but is a promise guaranteed to all beleivers, "as many as the Lord Our God shall call".

I will add that we are told to test the Spirits, so any so-called revelation that is presented in such a manner that it cannot be tested is already unbiblical, which covers the vast majority of modern "tongues".

No, we are not. The Apostles were in the "last days", ie. the last days before God's Judgment upon Old Covenant Israel.

Indeed, this is verified by Peter in Acts, who says that "this (Day of Pentecost) is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:" (Acts 2:16), and then proceeds to quote the entire prophecy. At no point did Peter suggest that any portion of Joel's prophecy would wait another 2,000 years to see it's fulfillment.

Maybe reading the entire prophecy would be appropriate here. Acts 2:17-21

17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
19 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
20 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
NASU

You said, "At no point did Peter suggest that any portion of Joel's prophecy would wait another 2,000 years to see it's fulfillment." If no part of the prophecy would wait 2,000 years, then the sun has been turned into darkness and the moon into blood and the great and glorious day of the LORD has come. At no point did Peter suggest that any portion of Joel's prophecy would NOT wait another 2,000 years to see it's fulfillment. We are still waiting for the great and glorious day of the LORD.

Romans 13:11-12 - "You know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; the night is far gone, the day is at hand."

1 Corianthians 7:29-31 - "Brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away."

1 Corinthians 10:11 - "On [us] the ends of the ages have come."

Philippians 4:5 - "The Lord is at hand."

James 5:8-9 - "The coming of the Lord is at hand. ... Behold, the Judge is standing at the door."

1 Peter 4:7 - "The end of all things is at hand."

1 John 2:18 - "It is the last hour ... we know that it is the last hour."

I guess these verses are to prove that the apostles were in the last days and that God was about to judge Old Covenant Israel. So why were these verses written to fellow believers? "The Lord is at hand, the coming of the Lord is near"-well did He come back? "The end of all things is at hand, it is the last hour...we know that that it is the last hour"-have all things ended, when is the last hour?

Daniel 9 makes no mention of antichrist or a millennial kingdom. And if it hasn't been completed yet, then Daniel was a false prophet, since the 490 years have already passed. It was Christ who comfirmed the covenant with many (Matthew 26:28), identified the Abomination of Desolation as the Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (Compare Matthew 24:15-21 with Luke 21:20-24), and is the prince who "came shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". Therefore, since Daniel 9 has been fulfilled, then vision and prophecy has been sealed up.

Dan 9:24-27

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." NASU

If Jesus confirmed the covenant, then 3 1/2 years after His death, He put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering, even though the veil was rent on the day of His crucifixion. Also, transgression is finished, sin is ended, atonement has been made for iniquity, everlasting righteousness is here and the most holy place has been anointed if the prophecy has been fulfilled. I might agree with the atonement part. Where does it say that the 490 years are consecutive? Could there be a gap of time between the 69th and 70th week? Doesn't the millennial reign of Jesus start after of the end of the 490 year?

God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues (1Cor. 12:28 NASU). The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the common good of the body of Christ. They are for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:12-13 NASU).

It can't be more plain: God has appointed IN THE CHURCH...

As Jude warned: Jude 17-23

17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18 that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." 19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
NASU

At no point did Peter suggest that any portion of Joel's prophecy would NOT wait another 2,000 years to see it's fulfillment.

Yes he did. He clearly said that the entire prophecy was being fulfilled before their eyes on the Day of Pentecost. Read Acts 2:16 over and over a few times and then justify the above quote.

I guess these verses are to prove that the apostles were in the last days and that God was about to judge Old Covenant Israel. So why were these verses written to fellow believers?

So that they would know when to leave the city (See Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 21:20-24 again).

"The Lord is at hand, the coming of the Lord is near"-well did He come back?

Read Matthew 16:27-28 and answer that. It is quite clear that he came in some way to judge Israel. The Scriptures are quite clear on that.

If Jesus confirmed the covenant, then 3 1/2 years after His death, He put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering, even though the veil was rent on the day of His crucifixion.

Look at Israel today and see of the temple sacrifices still happen. Christ put at stop to them in 70 AD, and sealed up all inspired revelation.

Also, transgression is finished, sin is ended, atonement has been made for iniquity, everlasting righteousness is here and the most holy place has been anointed if the prophecy has been fulfilled. I might agree with the atonement part. Where does it say that the 490 years are consecutive? Could there be a gap of time between the 69th and 70th week?

One what basis would there be a 2,000 gap between the 69th and 70th week? Why did Daniel fail to mention this pretty significant time gap? Daniel said that it would be fulfilled in 490 years. If the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled 2500 years later, we have a serious problem with Daniel.

Doesn't the millennial reign of Jesus start after of the end of the 490 year?

Says who? (Not necessarily disagreeing, but I will need some biblical support for this statement.

It can't be more plain: God HAS (past tense) appointed IN THE CHURCH...

Emphasis mine. When charismatics can show me genuine apostolic gifts of miracles and healings, I'll considering taking the prophecies seriously.

You quoted Acts 2:38-39 to establish that believers are BAPTIZED in the Holy Ghost. The way I read it, Peter establishes my point that all members of the body of Christ should receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38-39:

The Body of Christ hasn't even been revealed yet. Paul's gospel was yet to be preached. The apostles were Israel, not thechurch, the Body of Christ, which was a mystery that was hidden.

Col 1:26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

Eph 2:2-6 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

jlay wrote:

You quoted Acts 2:38-39 to establish that believers are BAPTIZED in the Holy Ghost. The way I read it, Peter establishes my point that all members of the body of Christ should receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38-39:

The Body of Christ hasn't even been revealed yet. Paul's gospel was yet to be preached. The apostles were Israel, not thechurch, the Body of Christ, which was a mystery that was hidden.

Col 1:26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

Eph 2:2-6 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

You're right. I should have said that converts to Jesus Christ (those who put their faith and trust in Jesus for their salvation) should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I should not have jumped from converts to members of the body of Christ. I'll let Paul do that in 1Corinthians.

I was not originally going to respond but I will and be forewarned I wrote this is for all of us who read this thread, including myself, and not to any particular individual. Something I call compassion for those reading this and for God compels me to state the following. I am not writing this to earn favor or appease people. There is so much abuse of the gifts that people fail to see the intent described in the bible for these gifts. We all, everyone of us, myself included have not reached a perfect state of maturity, nor a perfect state of Love: we all have much to learn:

There is one issue in this debate that I have never heard answered. One side says the gifts vanished and others say they haven’t. Therefore, according to 1 Corinthians 13:10, 13 and I Co 14:1, the perfect has not come, nor has the love spoken of in these chapters have arrived. For the gifts to have really vanished would mean that 1 - Christian are so loved soaked they no longer need the gifts or 2 - they are so perfectly mature as not to need assistance because we all are fantastically self sufficient in our personal relationship with the Lord and oh so mature.

Well, we Christians are not so perfect nor ‘we’ perfectly (maturely) loving. If anything, we need the gifts now more than ever. The gifts were meant for the expressions of God’s love to believers. Without that, yes, they’ll cease because God jealously guards them from excessive abuse by fault finding - love lacking - spiritually weak - proud Christians, as well as those power/control seeking money hungry Christian personality types who exploit and abuse these giftings. What maturity displayed!

But when love, God's love intended to shine thru us then these giftings will cease after each display because they have run their course to cherish the believer as God intends; then, with love they’ll increase again and produce what 1 Co 13:13 states in our lives as that is how God uses the gifts to express his love to change the weak, the growing, the lost so they can know God and his love personally. So for those that claim these gifts have ceased, what does 1 Co 13:10, 12c, state and have you reached that state yet? Are you so adult as to have lost being a child of God, unable to learn anymore of him or better yet, truly LOVE?

Also remember the word defined prophecy has many sub definitions and the context of scripture uncovers which sub-definition is intended. I have heard more prophecy being spoken in Reformed Churches than I do in independent bible Churches. And all prophecy is supposed to have ceased? Please never limit one definition to the word prophecy, look at the context where and how the word is used. Love rebukes, chastens, exhorts, teaches, declares God’s will and intent, Love cherishes, builds up, trains, edifies. The Prophetic word expresses this. Again, there is more prophecy spoken in Reformed Churches than many would like to admit and then again what has happened to Love from all of us? Do we buid up? tear down? Our motives born of God increasing his agape love (Cherishing, training, building up or are motives born of ourselves? Is it any wonder so few of God's giftings are shed forth today with power?

1 Co 13:12, 13c, "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known ... 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."NKJV

1 Co 14:1c, "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy." NKJV
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puritan lad wrote:

At no point did Peter suggest that any portion of Joel's prophecy would NOT wait another 2,000 years to see it's fulfillment.

Yes he did. He clearly said that the entire prophecy was being fulfilled before their eyes on the Day of Pentecost. Read Acts 2:16 over and over a few times and then justify the above quote.

So the great and glorious (terrible-Joel, KJV) day of the Lord has come. I thought we were still looking forward to that day-what a relief!

I guess these verses are to prove that the apostles were in the last days and that God was about to judge Old Covenant Israel. So why were these verses written to fellow believers?

So that they would know when to leave the city (See Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 21:20-24 again).

The apostles (and the converts of those days) were to leave the city when they saw the Abomination of Desolation occur (Matt. 24:15). "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. (Matt. 24:21 NASU). The "Great Tribulation" has occurred and we do not have to experience any tribulation near what occurred in 70 A.D. Another relief.

puritan lad wrote:

"The Lord is at hand, the coming of the Lord is near"-well did He come back?

Read Matthew 16:27-28 and answer that. It is quite clear that he came in some way to judge Israel. The Scriptures are quite clear on that.

Was that coming the "Transfiguration" in the next verse? The apostles never spoke of this "convenient" interpretation. If fact they only spoke of Jesus coming once in the last days. The apostles knew of only one time (Matt. 24:3). Jesus spoke of only one (John 14:3). Paul taught the Corinthians of only one (1Cor. 15:23). He taught the Thessalonians of only one (1Thes. 5:23) and Timothy of only one (1Tim 6:14). Titus knew of only one (Titus 2:13). John knew of only one (1John 2:28). Jude and Enoch knew of only one (Jude 14, 15).

If Jesus confirmed the covenant, then 3 1/2 years after His death, He put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering, even though the veil was rent on the day of His crucifixion.

Look at Israel today and see of the temple sacrifices still happen. Christ put at stop to them in 70 AD, and sealed up all inspired revelation.

Daniel is a false prophet, if we read the prophecy your way. You said that Jesus confirmed the covenant and then approximately 40 years later He put a stop to them (sacrifices and grain offerings) in 70 AD. What does Daniel say? Dan 9:27: "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." NASU. The confirmation begins the week. It is seven years (2520 days) long. Jesus stops the sacrifice and grain offering in the middle (midpoint) of the week. That means that He stops the sacrifice and grain offerings 3 1/2 years (1260 days) into the 70th week-not approximately 40 years after the confirmation.

Also, transgression is finished, sin is ended, atonement has been made for iniquity, everlasting righteousness is here and the most holy place has been anointed if the prophecy has been fulfilled. I might agree with the atonement part. Where does it say that the 490 years are consecutive? Could there be a gap of time between the 69th and 70th week?

One what basis would there be a 2,000 gap between the 69th and 70th week? Why did Daniel fail to mention this pretty significant time gap? Daniel said that it would be fulfilled in 490 years. If the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled 2500 years later, we have a serious problem with Daniel.

Since Jesus is not the one who confirms (established above) the treaty, then the other choice is the antichrist confirms the treaty. The antichrist has not come on the scene yet so there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week.

Puritan Lad, you've raised many good points that caused me to study more to establish what I believe and I appreciate that. I believe that we've drifted off the original topic-that of avoiding division in the body of Christ concerning the gifts of Holy Spirit and I'd kinda like to get back to that. Thanks.

So the great and glorious (terrible-Joel, KJV) day of the Lord has come. I thought we were still looking forward to that day-what a relief!

A good question is, why are we still looking forward to that day? What prevented it from coming right away. Is there a key element within the scritpures that tells us why this program would have been suspended or interrupted?

The apostles (and the converts of those days) were to leave the city when they saw the Abomination of Desolation occur (Matt. 24:15). "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. (Matt. 24:21 NASU). The "Great Tribulation" has occurred and we do not have to experience any tribulation near what occurred in 70 A.D. Another relief.

Has it occured? A great many including myself would disagree.

The transfiguration certainly was a sneak preview for sure. But as we know, Jesus returned to his human state and continued in his earthly ministry.

If fact they only spoke of Jesus coming once in the last days.

Of course he did. That is why Paul referred to His gospel as a mystery. Pauls's teachings in Thess. and Jesus teaching in Matt. elude to two different events regarding two different programs. Israel's vs. The Body of Christ.

The confirmation begins the week. It is seven years (2520 days) long. Jesus stops the sacrifice and grain offering in the middle (midpoint) of the week. That means that He stops the sacrifice and grain offerings 3 1/2 years (1260 days) into the 70th week-not approximately 40 years after the confirmation.

That is the key element. Israel's Kingdom program has been temporarily interrupted. And the mystery program is the one we are under today. The one that Paul says was hidden and secret from even the prophets.

B.W.

To clarify, I do believe in Spiritual Gifts. I just reject the idea of continuing inspired revelation.

I would, however, disagree with you here:

"the word defined prophecy has many sub definitions and the context of scripture uncovers which sub-definition is intended."

That's what the debate ultimately hinges on. Most charismatics want to hold to both sola scriptura and continuing revelation, and thus have to invent a lower class, fallible, non-authoritative form of prophecy, per Grudem above. That view will have to be defended, particularly with the clear passages that I have given.

However, if Grudem is correct, then the next question is, what are we to do with such prophecy? If it comes from God (in any way) and is errant, should I heed it or not? Sounds like the author of confusion to me.

The things that are clear from the Acts 2 passages are:

1.) Tongues are revelational (inspired) prophecy. Thus is prophecy is indeed inerrant, infallible words of the Living God (and I know of no other kind of prophecy, then it, along with tongues, ceased with the close of the canon.
2.) Tongues, at the very least, included earthly foreign languages (in fact, I'll go further and suggest that there is no evidence in Scripture that they ever included anything else, but I'm sure we'll get to that sooner or later).
3.) All Christians, as many as the Lord our God shall call, have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is given as a promise that SHALL happen to those who repent and are baptized, not a secondary blessing that we seek after we become Christians.

1harpazo,

I realize you have a dispensationalist background (your statement about Israel and the Church makes that pretty clear). As a result, you are probably not familiar with Preterism, so I would suggest you read up on this, agree or not. To answer your questions:

Joel's great and glorious day of the Lord has come, unless Peter was mistaken.

The Great Tribulation is history, unless Jesus was mistaken (Matthew 24:21, 34).

As for the Transfiguration, I not aware of any reward given then. In any case, even you have to acknowledge that Christ came in His kingdom in the First Century in some form or other.

As for Daniel 9, Christ did decree the end of sacrifice near the very end of His earthly ministry, until the destruction was complete.

"I believe that we've drifted off the original topic-that of avoiding division in the body of Christ concerning the gifts of Holy Spirit and I'd kinda like to get back to that."

True, but they are related. Even you agreed that:

Prophecy will cease at the end of the seventy weeks of years, but has the seventy weeks been completed?

Therefore, the completeness of Daniel's 70 week prophecy is an important issue in dealing with the question of prophecy today.

puritan lad wrote:B.W.

To clarify, I do believe in Spiritual Gifts. I just reject the idea of continuing inspired revelation.

I would, however, disagree with you here:

"the word defined prophecy has many sub definitions and the context of scripture uncovers which sub-definition is intended."

That's what the debate ultimately hinges on. Most charismatics want to hold to both sola scriptura and continuing revelation, and thus have to invent a lower class, fallible, non-authoritative form of prophecy, per Grudem above. That view will have to be defended, particularly with the clear passages that I have given.

However, if Grudem is correct, then the next question is, what are we to do with such prophecy? If it comes from God (in any way) and is errant, should I heed it or not? Sounds like the author of confusion to me.

The things that are clear from the Acts 2 passages are:

1.) Tongues are revelational (inspired) prophecy. Thus is prophecy is indeed inerrant, infallible words of the Living God (and I know of no other kind of prophecy, then it, along with tongues, ceased with the close of the canon.
2.) Tongues, at the very least, included earthly foreign languages (in fact, I'll go further and suggest that there is no evidence in Scripture that they ever included anything else, but I'm sure we'll get to that sooner or later).
3.) All Christians, as many as the Lord our God shall call, have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is given as a promise that SHALL happen to those who repent and are baptized, not a secondary blessing that we seek after we become Christians

Here is something from AMG word studies for the word 'perfect' translated in 1 Co 13 that may help shed light on this matter a bit more for the readers:

AMG Word Studies wrote:Strongs 5046

τέλειος

téleios; fem. teleía, neut. téleion, adj. from télos (Strongs - 5056), goal, purpose. Finished, that which has reached its end, term, limit; hence, complete, full, wanting in nothing.

(II) Specifically of persons meaning full age, adulthood, full-grown, of persons, meaning full-grown in mind and understanding (1 Co 14:20); in knowledge of the truth (1 Co 2:6; Php 3:15; Heb 5:14); in Christian faith and virtue (Eph 4:13). In the neut. tó téleion means the final destination of the believer, that is, heaven (1 Co 13:10, as contrasted to the full age in knowledge and understanding in 1 Co 13:11). This image of fully completed growth as contrasted with infancy and childhood underlies the ethical use of téleioi, being set over against the babes in Christ (1 Co 2:6; 1 Co 14:20; Eph 4:13-14; Php 3:15; Heb 5:14).

Likewise for the word prophacy:

AMG Word Studies wrote:Strongs 4395

προφητεύω

prophēteúō; fut. prophēteúsō, from prophḗtēs (Strongs 4396), prophet. To prophesy.

(I) To foretell things to come (Mat 11:13; Mat 15:7; Mar 7:6; 1Pe 1:10; Jude 1:14); to declare truths through the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit whether by prediction or otherwise (Luke 1:67; Acts 2:17-18; Acts 19:6; Acts 21:9; 1 Co 14:1, 1 Co 14:3-5; Rev 10:11; Rev 11:3; Sept.: 1 Ki 22:12, 1 Ki 22:18; Ezr 5:1; Jer 11:21; Joel 2:28). The foretelling or foreannouncing may be, and often is, the responsibility of the prophet, but is not the essence of that office.

(II) To tell forth God's message, hence the noun prophḗtēs (Strongs 4396), prophet, is the proclaimer, one who speaks out the counsel of God with the clearness, energy, and authority which spring from the consciousness of speaking in God's name and having received a direct message from Him to deliver. Thus one may prophesy without being a prophet in the strict sense of the word. A prophḗtēs, both in the OT and NT, is not primarily one who foretells things to come, but who (having been taught of God) speaks out His will (Deu 18:18; Is. chap. 1; Jer. chap. 1; Ezek. chap. 2; 1 Co 14:3). The art of heathen divination, however, uses the word manteúomai (Strongs-3132), to soothsay, divine.

Context in which the translated word - perfect - is used narrows the meaning to balanced and mature believers in the 1 Co 13 and 14 chapters. Revelations last verses in its last chapter makes clear the bible as it currently stands - stands firm. No need for new books (revelations) to be added or can be added. However, we still need those enlighten by the Lord to train and equip the saints - hence prophesies to them. Therefore we prophesies one to another, training young Christians what it means to be one, warning, building up, etc and etc - and so much more.

Look at Isaiah 34 and 35, you have two extremes taught. Jonathan Edwards used the same form, inspired by God, to give to the hearers – He prophesied just as do many of the Reformed Movement do today and I mean that as a compliment. So the word prophacy does indeed have sub-definitions as used in the bible which context unwraps.

1 Co 14:3, "But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men." NKJV

1 Co 14:5 , "I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification." NKJV

Again the aim is love driven, love live'n, love manifested:

1 Co 14:1, "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy." NKJV

1 Co 13:2, "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." NKJV

1 Co 13:13, "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." NKJV

The kind of love we are to reflect as believers - God's love reflected that takes the time cherish, nurtures, edifies, fosters, cultivates, tends to each other as 1 Co 13:1-13c reveals.

We always try to figure out why God does not pour out gifts like in the days of old. We rationalize this reason with that reason and in doing so, are we not avoiding the weightier issue of The love Jesus asked us to show and love John wrote of in 1 John to live?
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puritan lad wrote: 1harpazo,

I realize you have a dispensationalist background (your statement about Israel and the Church makes that pretty clear). As a result, you are probably not familiar with Preterism, so I would suggest you read up on this, agree or not. To answer your questions:

Joel's great and glorious day of the Lord has come, unless Peter was mistaken.

The Great Tribulation is history, unless Jesus was mistaken (Matthew 24:21, 34).

As for the Transfiguration, I not aware of any reward given then. In any case, even you have to acknowledge that Christ came in His kingdom in the First Century in some form or other.

As for Daniel 9, Christ did decree the end of sacrifice near the very end of His earthly ministry, until the destruction was complete.

Please forgive me for not being as gracious and patient as you. I did read a little about Preterism and understand a little better the points you made.

Here's one for your side: If Jesus confirmed the peace treaty with the many when He stood in the temple and read Isaiah 61:1-2a, then He ended the sacrifices 3 1/2 years later on the day He was crucified. Just a thought. Thanks so much.

To B. W.

I really do appreciate your posts in this topic. They exhibit great wisdom and love. You are proof of why God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers,... Thank you for this teaching. I enjoy reading your input.