Evidence for God from Science

Hey guys, here is a great article done by one of my favorite apologists JP Moreland


http://www.faithinterface.com.au/notabl ... p-moreland


JP FTW baby!

I think what Moreland touches on is a complete faith.
That we are to love God with our heart, soul, and mind. That these are three equal sides to the triangle of faith living. And that we should not focus on one at the exclusion of the others.

Only this person can cogently defend and answer what they believe, why they believe it, and why others must as well.

Well I have read and listened to many of JP's articles and lectures and I can tell you this much, he's extremely disappointed in the anti intellectualism that's widely displayed by most evangelical churches today. He's even made clear that his perfect model for the church would be to have a libraries installed in each one, where church members could check out books (both Christian and even secular books from the other side) and part of the service would be for the congregation to review and discuss the philosophical and apologetic material in those books. JP thinks more like I do. And he certainly would look down on a quote such as this

"As myself, and many a Christian can testify, a man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience."

But I have a "feeling" that the 909 who died in the Jonestown mass suicide would agree with their whole "heart" in that quote. Well at least up until a few moments after they partook of the Kool-Aid.

derrick09 wrote:"As myself, and many a Christian can testify, a man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience."

Yes and no... while you are right in pointing out that experience alone can be misleading or twisted, so can arguments without experience. Didn't the earth-centric universe models of the middle ages have more to do with argument than experience? They turned out pretty wrong. Maybe there's lots of room for both experience and argument, and they are compatible and beneficial to each other, instead of opposed with one another.

double post. sorry.

Not sure why you felt compelled to bring up something I said in the context of a different thread. But since you did let me clarify. BTW, The Jonestown thing was just in poor taste.

When I speak of experience in Christianity, it is regarding the true experience of salvation in knowing Christ. I am not talking about the jitterbug Jesus crowd. I am not talking about people seeking out emotional highs. In fact I am very suspicous of much of what is being called 'experience' theys days. I am talking about the experience of KNOWING Christ. Personally. Intimately. This is experience isn't founded in human emotion (although it may effect the emotions) or tickling the senses. This is a much different experience for certain.
For example, I can read all about my wife. Her likes, dislikes, her age, birthday, etc. I can know all kinds of things about her, but that doesn't mean I know her. My experience of KNOWING her becomes the central foundation from which everything else ties in. Everything forms around this knowledge, not the other way around. As one comes to Christ they get to experience the grace, mercy and love first hand. It becomes etched into one's heart. And becomes more reality as we walk out in faith accoriding to the Word.

Paul used the word Ginosko. It is an intimate knowing. It is the same word Jesus uses in John 10 when he says that He knows His sheep and His sheep know him. There are several other words that translate 'know' from the Greek into the English. Oida, gnosta, and one more I can't recall. Ginosko is the one used when the bible says, that Joseph had not yet 'known' Mary. It suggest an intimacy. Saved people have placed their trust, not in a concept, or an idea, or an ideology, or even an argument. But they have put their faith in a person. The person of Christ Jesus. Listen to what Paul says in Phil 3:10. "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection"

The problem with the people in Jonestown, is that they dind't have a knowing experience with Christ. If they did, then they abandoned it against all reason, for a poor counterfeit. If they had, then they would have been able to quickly spot the cult practices and deceptions around them. Why? Because His sheep know Him. Experiencing and knowing Christ doesn't require us to abandon arguments, but gives us the only secure foundation to build them on. (Eph 3:18-19) Here in this prayer hinges a very key point. To know (ginosko) the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge.(gnosta/gnosis, which refers to general intelligence) It doesn't say knowledge is bad. But that there is a experiential, intimate knowing that surpasses knowledge. And Paul prays that all in the body would have that which supasses the other.

So, specifically when I talk about a man with an argument is no match for one with an experience, what we are talking about is a believer's ultimate standard for faith vs. the unbelieving world. Not a battle within Christianity itself. If one KNOWS Christ, then all these other issues regarding the age of the earth, evolution, etc. etc. are placed in a much different perspective. Not that they become arbitrary. Not at all. Although you seemed convinced that this is my position despite the fact that I have gone to great lengths to show otherwise.

Obviously anyone can have an experience. A Hindu, Muslim, whatever. So, yes it is a good idea to clarify experience in this context. In fact part of the experience of knowing Christ may come from examining the arguments, and evidences, and seeing that there is merit in being able to know this Jesus. Hope this clears things up.

I don't know why this there is this false dilemma being argued but no one, no one here, is arguing for ignorance and no one *should* be arguing for mere clinical knowledge. We are to be able to provide reasons for the hope that we have and that hope is found in Christ. We must have a relationship with Christ and we must also love Him with our heart, our mind, and our body, and our entire being. SO that means entering whole-heartedly into understanding and defending our faith. And that mean cultivating and building our relationship with Him. The relationship is a wonderful mixture of intellectual understanding and obedience. And scripture shows His followers as doubting Thomases as well as blind men washing mud off their eyes without understanding why.