Job 3:11-19 & Infant Salvation

[Telstra Robs]

"Why did I not die at birth, come out from the womb and expire? Why did the knees receive me? Or why the breasts, that I should nurse? For then I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept; then I would have been at rest, with kings and counselors of the earth who rebuilt ruins for themselves or with princes who had gold, who filled their houses with silver. Or why was I not as a hidden stillborn child, as infants who never see the light? There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest. There the prisoners are at ease together; they hear not the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master."

Do these verses confirm that fetuses and infants who die are saved?

[ocarina_boy]

Do you really think God would send infants to Hell? I highly doubt it, infact I know it not to be so.

[B. W.]

Do you really think God would send infants to Hell? I highly doubt it, infact I know it not to be so.

Here are the text:

Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven." NKJV

Matthew 18:3 -6, "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." KJV

I don't think God will be tying a millstone to himself and jumping into the sea either...

How you doing ocarina?
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[puritan lad]

Do you really think God would send infants to Hell? I highly doubt it, infact I know it not to be so.

How do you know this to be so? Is the new birth optional for infants? That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

[Silvertusk]

Infant salvation is the only way I can justify a loving God with the the first few books of the old testament and the death of infants everywhere that has not heard of Jesus. If infant salvation did not exist and babies and small children under the age of accountablity went to a literal hell - then I would probably lose my faith in a heartbeat. Being a recent father myself this point has major implications for me.

Silvertusk.

[puritan lad]

I believe in infant salvation for the infants of believers, for they they must be saved in order to make it to heaven. But I see no Scriptural support for any "age of accountability", nor do I see any reason to believe that all who die in infancy are saved. In fact, I see just the opposite.

P1: Infants are sinners right from birth (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3), and accountable before God (Romans 3:19).
P2: Unless a sinner is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)
Conclusion: Unless infants are born again, they cannot see the kingdom of God.

While there is reason to believe that the children of believers who die in infancy are born again (2 Samuel 12:23, 1 Corinthians 7:14), I can see no biblical basis for applying this to all infants (Romans 9:10-13).

The age of accountability is a nice thought, but just not biblical.

[Silvertusk]

I believe in infant salvation for the infants of believers, for they they must be saved in order to make it to heaven. But I see no Scriptural support for any "age of accountability", nor do I see any reason to believe that all who die in infancy are saved. In fact, I see just the opposite.

P1: Infants are sinners right from birth (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3), and accountable before God (Romans 3:19).
P2: Unless a sinner is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)
Conclusion: Unless infants are born again, they cannot see the kingdom of God.

While there is reason to believe that the children of believers who die in infancy are born again (2 Samuel 12:23, 1 Corinthians 7:14), I can see no biblical basis for applying this to all infants (Romans 9:10-13).

The age of accountability is a nice thought, but just not biblical.

Then justify the concept of an all lovng God with him sending babies of unbelievers to Hell. Justify a concept of an all loving God with him ordering genecide in Exodus and Joshua - killing all the children as well.

There is no justification for it. If God is to be perfectly just and perfectly loving - then there has to be an age of accountablilty. For me that is the deal breaker.

[Seraph]

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/b ... o_die.html

The main site has a page on infant salvation, which I found pretty insightful. It provides biblical evidence that infants who die find rest, though nothing specifically declaring that they are saved. Really there are issues that the Bible doesn't discuss clearly so all one can do is speculate, such as this one and the fates of people who have never been exposed to Christianity. I don't think there is enough evidence for either side for one to claim that they have knowledge of the answer.

Though as an aside, I have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that babies are guilty of sin at birth. It makes it sound like God is offended by a person for simply being born. When David in Psalms says that he was a sinner at birth, I take it (as well as the idea of Original Sin) to mean that he was born with the potential to sin and the inevitablility that he eventually will, but not that he was born already guilty. To me that just doesn't make sense. Sin is willingly and knowingly choosing to disobey God, not some dark force that flows through people, contaminating them. I think sin requires one to wield their free will against God. Which I don't think infants have done.

[Maytan]

This is a problem I often wonder about myself.

The problem with waiting until an individual is accountable is... well. It's rather ambiguous. For one, how accountable does one have to be? We don't just suddenly become 'accountable' over night, growing up and learning is a rather slow process from a human perspective. Just how much accountability is required?

Let's not forget, if we base things on accountability, then those who don't know that what they're doing is wrong (or, those who haven't heard the Gospel) present a problem to the idea. Once again, the basis is on how much. That is, how much knowledge of the Gospels must we have before we are accountable to them? If someone rejects the Gospel, is he necessarily condemned? Are there not people that legitimately decide that, based on the knowledge they have, that the Bible can't be true? That is to say, not necessarily out of spite against God, but for a lack of their own knowledge. Would God condemn someone for lacking knowledge, or for not having the time to further his (or her) knowledge?

And, to add to that, wouldn't that make preaching God's word counter-productive? If we teach people about God, and they reject the Gospel, that condemns them. But, if they never hear about the Gospel, according to the idea of accountability, they can't be condemned. So, the key to getting people saved would be to burn all the Bibles and shove Christianity underneath the carpet.

I don't claim to take any stance on this issue, but it confuses me greatly and I wish there was a clearer answer.

I believe in infant salvation for the infants of believers, for they they must be saved in order to make it to heaven.

By that logic, the parents of the child being saved makes their child saved, does it not? That doesn't hold much water to me.

[MarcusOfLycia]

I don't think there's a tangible 'age of accountability', but when you start talking about salvation and who God will save, you are treading on some pretty hallowed ground. We, as Christians, can judge actions, but we cannot judge the heart, nor can we hope to judge worthiness of Salvation.

From what we know in Scripture, we have a God who loves us far beyond what we deserve and who saves us through His Son exclusively. Does He give us an age before we can believe, an 'age of accountability'? No. Does He give us a percentage of information we need to know about Christ before we truly know who Christ is enough to trust Him for salvation? No. We are not given the means to judge others (in terms of truly knowing if they are saved for sure), only the means to come to Christ ourselves, and that is enough for me. God will act justly (far beyond my definition of the term) to everyone, infants included. Of this, I have no doubt.

[Silvertusk]

Agree with that Marcus. God will be just and fair. This is why I beleive there is an age of accountability - we just dont know what it is -and I believe it is different for everyone - only God Knows.

Silvertusk

[jlay]

While there is reason to believe that the children of believers who die in infancy are born again (2 Samuel 12:23, 1 Corinthians 7:14), I can see no biblical basis for applying this to all infants (Romans 9:10-13).

I don't see how that is consistent though with your conclusion, "Unless infants are born again, they cannot see the kingdom of God." It would call into question your use of these verses in this application.

[puritan lad]

What is the age of accountability? The Bible tells us that all are accountable to God.

Then justify the concept of an all lovng God with him sending babies of unbelievers to Hell. Justify a concept of an all loving God with him ordering genecide in Exodus and Joshua - killing all the children as well.

I have no need to justify anything God does. He does whatever pleases him (Psalm 115:3)

There is no justification for it. If God is to be perfectly just and perfectly loving - then there has to be an age of accountablilty. For me that is the deal breaker.

You'll have to take that up with God.

Really there are issues that the Bible doesn't discuss clearly so all one can do is speculate, such as this one and the fates of people who have never been exposed to Christianity. I don't think there is enough evidence for either side for one to claim that they have knowledge of the answer.

Is it that the Bible doesn't answer this, or is it that we don't like the answer? The Bible is clear on the fates of people who have never been exposed to Christianity. They are without excuse.

I don't see how that is consistent though with your conclusion, "Unless infants are born again, they cannot see the kingdom of God." It would call into question your use of these verses in this application.

Why is that? Is it beyond God's power to regenerate infants in the womb, as he did with John the Baptist?

[B. W.]

Matthew 19:14, "But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven." NKJV

Mark 10:14, 15, 16, "But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." 16 And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them..." NKJV

Matthew 18:3-6, "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." KJV
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[Silvertusk]

I have no need to justify anything God does. He does whatever pleases him (Psalm 115:3)

Not what is against his nature. What pleases God is to be good and perfect and Just. Killing innocent children who have not heard the gospel and sending them to Hell is not good, perfect or just.

If God is perfect, good and Just then I will obviously be satisfied with any course of action he performs. If he is not and he does send babies to Hell - then he is none of the above - and I would prefer the fact that he didn't exist at all.

You are right that this is between me and God - but that is a moot point anyway because logic suggests to me that there is an age of accountability and so this is not even an issue.

Silvertusk.