Evidence for God from Science

Hello everyone,

I was wondering what are your all's opinions and views on praying in the spirit? First off is it Biblical? Second, is it still a legitimate gift or ability for believers today? And what I mostly want to know, how does someone pray in the spirit? Is it something that's suppossed to come natural or is it a skill that must be learned and practiced? Thanks for your time, God bless.

All praying done in the Spirit.

I think he's referring to praying in tongues or "prayer language."

My opinion, it's not something I believe to Biblical in the sense that the Bible refers to it or teaches it. I think the context of the passages used is stretched beyond support. Far too much has to be inferred and the passages involved appear to speaking of instances of Spirity led prayer where the focus is upon the content of the prayer connecting deeply with one's emotion and even transcending one's conscious mind to where the Spirit itself intercedes on our behalf praying for us and with us with deep intensity and even emotion to where we are able to bring things to God that we might not be able to do in our own power.

Could that involve tongues? I suppose one might have to leave that option open, but when tongues is spoken of as a gift it's equated with prophesy and always accompanied by interpretation in the context of corporate ministry or a sign to unbelievers. Prayer language as I've experienced it being taught (and I've been taught in the heart of the Charismatic movement in the past) has too many stretches in Biblical context and no presence of it as a teaching or reported experience that I can see in the early church (although I've heard some material from the Montanists referred to in one lecture I vaguely recall from, almost 30 years ago ....)

Hey Bart, thanks for the reply. That's the sort of thing I was anticipating from chrismatics. It seems as though they like to claim to the public and to themselves that they experience two way conversations with God when in reality they are either self decieved or at worse, trying to manipulate people (especially for money). And this is on both a cooporate level as well as a local level.

But regardless of that,ever since I became aware of Chrismatics (some fifteen years ago) and have become aware of their methods (such as praying in the spirit) even though their methods don't work (especially for me) it sparks the desire within me to find a way to establish a two way conversation with God or to become as close as possible to Him in order to recieve either specific advice for my life or to just to feel what it's like to by right next to God and to sense His love and or His presence.

I guess since chrismatics don't really experience Him and I can't seem to get myself to really experience Him, I guess the only time I will be able to is when my physical life (on this earth) is over and my afterlife begins. Is that the way you see it? Or do you see a way we can know specific things (for each of our lives) from God in this life? Thanks again for your reply and God bless.

Derrick,

I understand what you're saying and I agree with some of it to a point. I'm not so quick to condemn charismatics as not experiencing God in any context. That's far too broad an assessment and it goes well beyond anything I can assess on such a broad basis. I do think that a great deal of Charismatic doctrine and practice is experientially based and it is continually seeking for emotional experiences and as such moves from mountaintop to mountaintop (with the valleys in between.)

However, while experience is not foundational in our salvation in the sense that we always have the sense of God's presence in some emotional or spiritual sixth sense that doesn't mean to me that there is not experience or that it is not important. Charismatics elevate it above that in many cases. However, I also think many elements of Christianity have reduced a relationship with God to the theoretical and almost made emotions or experiences taboo. The last denomination I parked in even jokingly acknowledged some of that by referring to themselves as "God's Frozen Chosen."

No, I believe God intends us to experience Him and have a relationship with Him that is real even if that is not foundational to our justification before Him. We still walk daily. The Holy Spirit dwells within us if we are saved.

Where I find these elements in my walk with Christ are in several areas and ways.

The Bible is not just to be approached intellectually. Certain that's one element of it. Doctrine is important but it is not to eclipse every other element of our being and psyche. We are to love God with all of our heart, mind and soul. As has been noted in other threads recently (I think I saw Jlay making a reference to it and I know I have) many times in the Koine Greek in the NT there are different words that are translated "know" into english or different forms with implications in the english that don't always translate cleanly. The word "ginosko" (transliterated and I don't remember if that's how most transliterate it) has a sense to it of a greater context of relationship and is used to denote physical relationships between husband and wife. This is similar in the Hebrew as well. Certainly it's not speaking of physical relationships with God (God is spirit) but it is speaking of a depth of relationship that goes beyond just intellect. That includes the emotions.

I've personally have had such emotional experiences and still do in many contexts. I've been "thrilled within" when I think of the extent of God's love for me and others. There are times when I read the scripture and meditate on it (which is more than intellectual reflection) and I very really sense the Holy Spirit of God leading me into some element of truth that I've missed before. Now many will pipe up here and warn that such personal eureka moments are to be very carefully examined and guarded against lest error slip in. No kidding. Never mind personal revelation as a warning for that. Extend that to pure intellectual doctrine and examine what has happened to the Church Universal since the reformation. We have over 39,000 denominations, sects etc., many of which claim pure intellectual doctrine, many times diametrically opposite others who claim the same standard. Intellect alone is not sufficient to understand and "know" the things of God. That is in large part why we've been given the Holy Spirit as both comforter and one who leads us into all truth. So there is danger in what some charismatics have done there, but there is equal danger in effect shutting the Holy Spirit up and not allowing for that element relying instead solely or primarily upon our systematic (a method that's only been present in Christian History since the Reformation as it is used now) theologies and turning a walk with Christ into an emotionless, dry, intellectual lecture.

That balance in many ways is not as clean as many would like it. It carries risk and there are dangers. That doesn't make it any less part of how God has created us as humans and how we are to walk with him. Caution doesn't require rejection.

Anyway, I feel (there's that word) that I could go on with this and if you or any others want to discuss it I'm happy to, stating that I'm not necessarily a final authority on it. It is something that's been becoming more real in my heart and life this past 2 years or so and perhaps surprisingly so for some as I've had some pretty significant changes in view and practice as to how I practice my walk with Christ and fellowship with others.

derrick09 wrote:Hey Bart, thanks for the reply. That's the sort of thing I was anticipating from chrismatics. It seems as though they like to claim to the public and to themselves that they experience two way conversations with God when in reality they are either self decieved or at worse, trying to manipulate people (especially for money). And this is on both a cooporate level as well as a local level.

But regardless of that,ever since I became aware of Chrismatics (some fifteen years ago) and have become aware of their methods (such as praying in the spirit) even though their methods don't work (especially for me) it sparks the desire within me to find a way to establish a two way conversation with God or to become as close as possible to Him in order to recieve either specific advice for my life or to just to feel what it's like to by right next to God and to sense His love and or His presence.

I guess since chrismatics don't really experience Him and I can't seem to get myself to really experience Him, I guess the only time I will be able to is when my physical life (on this earth) is over and my afterlife begins. Is that the way you see it? Or do you see a way we can know specific things (for each of our lives) from God in this life? Thanks again for your reply and God bless.

Since you have a hard time accepting praying in the spirit, then "charismatic methods" probably won't work for you. However, if you spend time in prayer AND listening (being quiet long enough to allow God to speak to your spirit), you might begin to have that "two way conversation" with God that you desire. Fasting (with prayer) is also helpful in seeking answers. Daniel did this.

As I have said before, salvation through Jesus is the "cake". It is essential. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the "icing" on the "cake". The icing is not essential-but it makes the cake taste better. Being a "charismatic", I believe that praying in the spirit is very beneficial for one's spirit and spiritual life. Paul said that praying in the spirit is unprofitable for the mind. It's the spirit speaking mysteries to God.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and address your money comment. When you watch TV (I'm guessing you do), you are being manipulated by ads that pay for that football game, reality show, soap opera, talk show, movie or nightly news program. What makes it okay for those programs to pitch all sorts of vileness and ungodliness but it's not okay for Christian ministries to ask for money? There aren't very many preachers who started out as millionaires (I know of only one and He was crucified and resurrected) and don't need to ask for money. Poverty is not a sign of godliness-it's a sign of poverty.

Well let's see it's not that charismatic methods don't work for me it's just I currently find a lot of their stuff either fake or naturally produced (i.e. working themselves up into an emotional frenzy or experiencing some other kind of natural emotion or phenomenon that's not directly from God) or something that is not taught or even taught against in scripture. Now that doesn't mean that there are not any charismatic that have had real experiences form God or that there are not any non charismatic that have had real experiences from God. Now those are the type that I"m interested in hearing more about and experiencing myself.

Now I've had some experiences in the past such as feelings of warmth, love, and peace while praying, and I've also have had times where looking back on past events in my life where God may have had a hand in directing things. But as far as I know I haven't had anything from God that I distinctly know 100% for sure was from God. And I've done what you've said over the years, I've fasted and prayed but so far I"ve got nothing that I can say was truly 100% from God.

One of the things that also confuses me about all of this is what exactly is a person's spirit? How do you know you are feeling with or communicating with your spirit? Is your spirit your emotions basically? Or does your spirit also involve your brain as well? For example, when I"m greeting my pet dog and my pet him and i"m calling him a "good doggie" and he licks me and so on I tend to get this feeling of love and my brain is flooded with endorphins and I feel great all over, is there anything going on in my spirit at this particular time? Basically does a person's spirit basically come natural to each and every person or is it like a sixth sense that one has to search for or tap into or even practice over the years to be able to sense or doing anything spiritually? I"m mostly just confused because I know I have a mind and I have emotions and I have the sense of touch or feeling but are these aspects of my spirit or is the spirit something else?

But anyway on a final note you mention about me being too hard on televangelist's who ask for money. It's not that them asking for money is in itself a bad thing, all other charity groups and non profit organizations do this all the time, the thing that I and most other people don't like about televangelist's asking for money is their track record as far as what many of them have done over the years and decades with that money that they ask for. You see because of the Jim Bakers and Jimmy Swaggerts of the world most of the general public shrinks from giving money to today's televangelists because they are afraid that all the others are just like those two. Is the sort of the same phenomena of why most people don't leave their house doors unlocked anymore or why it's now considered unsafe and foolish for someone to help a stranded motorist on the side of the road. Humanity's innocence was lost a long time ago and it continues to get worse and worse and with that people become more and more fearful and we tend to second guess things and it's not necessarily a bad thing since we are doing it in the name of safety, security, and making sure our money goes to things that we trust.

The reason why I"m not so angry with traditional advertisements is that just like most other people I've went out and have bought things and I've developed a sense of trust for some products over certain others. It kind a goes back to trust as well. Most people and I myself, because of their track record don't trust televangelists with our money. Sure we like to watch and laugh at them and how tacky rich they look but we don't trust them with our money. And it's not because of how rich they look, it's their proven track record of dishonesty.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Derrick,

I understand what you're saying and I agree with some of it to a point. I'm not so quick to condemn charismatics as not experiencing God in any context. That's far too broad an assessment and it goes well beyond anything I can assess on such a broad basis. I do think that a great deal of Charismatic doctrine and practice is experientially based and it is continually seeking for emotional experiences and as such moves from mountaintop to mountaintop (with the valleys in between.)

However, while experience is not foundational in our salvation in the sense that we always have the sense of God's presence in some emotional or spiritual sixth sense that doesn't mean to me that there is not experience or that it is not important. Charismatics elevate it above that in many cases. However, I also think many elements of Christianity have reduced a relationship with God to the theoretical and almost made emotions or experiences taboo. The last denomination I parked in even jokingly acknowledged some of that by referring to themselves as "God's Frozen Chosen."

No, I believe God intends us to experience Him and have a relationship with Him that is real even if that is not foundational to our justification before Him. We still walk daily. The Holy Spirit dwells within us if we are saved.

Where I find these elements in my walk with Christ are in several areas and ways.

The Bible is not just to be approached intellectually. Certain that's one element of it. Doctrine is important but it is not to eclipse every other element of our being and psyche. We are to love God with all of our heart, mind and soul. As has been noted in other threads recently (I think I saw Jlay making a reference to it and I know I have) many times in the Koine Greek in the NT there are different words that are translated "know" into english or different forms with implications in the english that don't always translate cleanly. The word "ginosko" (transliterated and I don't remember if that's how most transliterate it) has a sense to it of a greater context of relationship and is used to denote physical relationships between husband and wife. This is similar in the Hebrew as well. Certainly it's not speaking of physical relationships with God (God is spirit) but it is speaking of a depth of relationship that goes beyond just intellect. That includes the emotions.

I've personally have had such emotional experiences and still do in many contexts. I've been "thrilled within" when I think of the extent of God's love for me and others. There are times when I read the scripture and meditate on it (which is more than intellectual reflection) and I very really sense the Holy Spirit of God leading me into some element of truth that I've missed before. Now many will pipe up here and warn that such personal eureka moments are to be very carefully examined and guarded against lest error slip in. No kidding. Never mind personal revelation as a warning for that. Extend that to pure intellectual doctrine and examine what has happened to the Church Universal since the reformation. We have over 39,000 denominations, sects etc., many of which claim pure intellectual doctrine, many times diametrically opposite others who claim the same standard. Intellect alone is not sufficient to understand and "know" the things of God. That is in large part why we've been given the Holy Spirit as both comforter and one who leads us into all truth. So there is danger in what some charismatics have done there, but there is equal danger in effect shutting the Holy Spirit up and not allowing for that element relying instead solely or primarily upon our systematic (a method that's only been present in Christian History since the Reformation as it is used now) theologies and turning a walk with Christ into an emotionless, dry, intellectual lecture.

That balance in many ways is not as clean as many would like it. It carries risk and there are dangers. That doesn't make it any less part of how God has created us as humans and how we are to walk with him. Caution doesn't require rejection.

Anyway, I feel (there's that word) that I could go on with this and if you or any others want to discuss it I'm happy to, stating that I'm not necessarily a final authority on it. It is something that's been becoming more real in my heart and life this past 2 years or so and perhaps surprisingly so for some as I've had some pretty significant changes in view and practice as to how I practice my walk with Christ and fellowship with others.

Good points Bart, I was wondering, since I assume that you, like me, want to establish a closer relationship with God and you long to have two way conversations with God just like I do. So with that in mind, what is that you do to establish a two way conversation with God or at the very least, get close enough to God to where it is more likely that you could start having two way conversations with God? Thanks again Bart, take care and God bless.

Personally, I find when I pray, that pausing to be quiet and still before God is when I sense God's speaking or leading me. I don't know that I've ever had a time where I "felt" God was speaking directly to me in the sense of a two way conversation. I don't believe God needs to do that. I've certainly had times in prayer when I've been overwhelmed by something and rather than even trying to put it to words, I'll just ask the Spirit to intercede with God on my behalf and I believe that has many times given me freedom in expressing and releasing many things.

I find God speaks to me through the Bible, through the Holy Spirit within me bearing witness to my spirit that He is there and I am loved, through the beauty of nature, sometimes through other brothers and sisters in Christ whom God uses in some special way if I'm listening.

I think that might be the key to what you're asking. God is always speaking in some manner. The question is, am I listening? Am I taking the time to just quiet down and set aside the cares of the day and my immediate worries, and being calm and focusing and meditating upon God? One of my major issues in life has to do with a difficult relationship with my earthly father. Often times, when I find myself worried about the past (which is less frequent now) I ask God to show me in some way how He was there with me in that past, and many times, in ways that I believe are not completely of my doing, I'll find healing in the images and thoughts that come to me when I ask that of God. I believe that is him answering.

Psalms are wonderful to read aloud and reflect upon what they say to me about God and then asking God how He is showing me more about Himself in that day. There's not always an overwhelming sense of emotional experience of that happening, but I think I can say that it's rare that there's not something there that at the end of the day I can look at and realize that God was with me.

I find the prayers and meditations of Christian Mystics like C.S. Lewis, A.W. Tozer, Manning and many of the older traditional take me out of myself and my boxed thinking and open my heart and mind in a way that I begin to realize God is there in far more ways that I realize. He is speaking. It's me that has to slow down, surrender and learn to listen! Oh, but He's patient. He knows better than I when those breakthroughs may be coming and I believe God rejoices with me in the listening even when I maybe don't hear all He's saying but He knows I'm now one less moment away from something personal and significant to me.

I don't know if that helps. I believe God does give us the desires of our heart. The ironic thing is as we draw closer to Him, His desires become our desires and of God wants to give us what he plans to give us if we're just but ready and willing to receive it.

To derrick09:

I want to thank you for starting this topic. You might have intended it for something else but I think it was for me and possibly many others (at least I hope so).

This evening as my wife and I were praying together, God impressed (didn't speak) on me to pursue a real "two way conversation" prayer life with Him. I believe that others will desire and develop this same prayer life. There is a hunger among Christians to pursue God this way and He is going to honor those who choose it. It will take some real praying but also an honest effort to hear God and it's entirely possible.

derrick09, you have lit a spark and I for one will fan it into a fire in my prayer life-so thank you for obeying God. He's going to work with signs and wonders following.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Personally, I find when I pray, that pausing to be quiet and still before God is when I sense God's speaking or leading me. I don't know that I've ever had a time where I "felt" God was speaking directly to me in the sense of a two way conversation. I don't believe God needs to do that. I've certainly had times in prayer when I've been overwhelmed by something and rather than even trying to put it to words, I'll just ask the Spirit to intercede with God on my behalf and I believe that has many times given me freedom in expressing and releasing many things.

I find God speaks to me through the Bible, through the Holy Spirit within me bearing witness to my spirit that He is there and I am loved, through the beauty of nature, sometimes through other brothers and sisters in Christ whom God uses in some special way if I'm listening.

I think that might be the key to what you're asking. God is always speaking in some manner. The question is, am I listening? Am I taking the time to just quiet down and set aside the cares of the day and my immediate worries, and being calm and focusing and meditating upon God? One of my major issues in life has to do with a difficult relationship with my earthly father. Often times, when I find myself worried about the past (which is less frequent now) I ask God to show me in some way how He was there with me in that past, and many times, in ways that I believe are not completely of my doing, I'll find healing in the images and thoughts that come to me when I ask that of God. I believe that is him answering.

Psalms are wonderful to read aloud and reflect upon what they say to me about God and then asking God how He is showing me more about Himself in that day. There's not always an overwhelming sense of emotional experience of that happening, but I think I can say that it's rare that there's not something there that at the end of the day I can look at and realize that God was with me.

I find the prayers and meditations of Christian Mystics like C.S. Lewis, A.W. Tozer, Manning and many of the older traditional take me out of myself and my boxed thinking and open my heart and mind in a way that I begin to realize God is there in far more ways that I realize. He is speaking. It's me that has to slow down, surrender and learn to listen! Oh, but He's patient. He knows better than I when those breakthroughs may be coming and I believe God rejoices with me in the listening even when I maybe don't hear all He's saying but He knows I'm now one less moment away from something personal and significant to me.

I don't know if that helps. I believe God does give us the desires of our heart. The ironic thing is as we draw closer to Him, His desires become our desires and of God wants to give us what he plans to give us if we're just but ready and willing to receive it.

Thanks again Bart, this is really good stuff. I like it since it meshes well with my own experience and day to day living. I can't say the same, however for the chrismatics and what they teach about the subject. But I"m going to pay close attention to your advice and see how it works. I have a feeling I"ll get way more closer to God by your method than by the chrismatic's methods. Thanks again and God bless.

1harpazo wrote:To derrick09:

I want to thank you for starting this topic. You might have intended it for something else but I think it was for me and possibly many others (at least I hope so).

This evening as my wife and I were praying together, God impressed (didn't speak) on me to pursue a real "two way conversation" prayer life with Him. I believe that others will desire and develop this same prayer life. There is a hunger among Christians to pursue God this way and He is going to honor those who choose it. It will take some real praying but also an honest effort to hear God and it's entirely possible.

derrick09, you have lit a spark and I for one will fan it into a fire in my prayer life-so thank you for obeying God. He's going to work with signs and wonders following.

Interesting, I"m glad this has inspired you to search for God more. Let me know how things go and what kind of progress you are able to make. If you do establish something, let me know because I would like to know how you did it and see if it will work for me. Thanks for you time, God bless.

To derrick09:

The conversation is beginning (although not a back-and-forth conversation yet). I began fanning the fire on the 23rd. I've been praying with my wife and by myself. I've been praying in English and the spirit. Two days ago, I felt in my spirit that my brother (Christian as well) might be becoming discouraged so I began pray and ask God for a word of encouragement to console him (the gift of prophecy 1Cor 14:11 Cor 14:3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation NASU). God gave me that word this morning at 4 am (couldn't sleep so I got up to pray and read my Bible).

Background: My brother, a roofing contractor, had a stroke and fell off a roof and landed in a bush breaking his fall. This happened almost two years ago. He lost much mobility in his left arm and leg.
More background: For many years, he visited an orphanage in Mexico. He would take needed items down to the kids and made the construction repairs that were needed at the time. He and many of the men of his church went down and built a new building for them. It was one thing that he loved to do.

This morning God gave me Psalm 41:1-3 as the word of exhortation for him It is:

How blessed is he who considers the helpless;
The Lord will deliver him in a day of trouble.
2 The Lord will protect him and keep him alive,
And he shall be called blessed upon the earth;
And do not give him over to the desire of his enemies.
3 The Lord will sustain him upon his sickbed;
In his illness, You restore him to health
NASU

You see, he could have been killed by the stroke and/or falling off the roof, but God protected him and kept him alive and delivered in his day of trouble.
He was hospitalized about two months and during that time, there were over 7,000 visits to his web page that was created to keep people updated on his progress. There were friends from many countries who left words of encouragement and prayers on the web page. I would call him "blessed upon the earth". His main enemy, the destroyer tried to kill him and rob him of his health but God...

The word of consolation and exhortation is "The Lord will sustain him upon his sickbed; In his illness, You (God) will restore him to health" Praise God!!!

I am so humbled that He is going to heal my brother. More humbled that He heard and answered my prayer. God is a good God to all who seek Him. Amen

Derrick,
I currently attend a charismatic church, The Assemblies of God, who teach the praying in the spirit and tounges doctrine. I had an experience due to a guest Evangelist who offered to baptise or re-fill us with the holy spirit. I went up and completely opened myself up to this (as it was new to me) and did like he and the pastor were "coaching" us. In the end, it was a bad experience, so I launched a study and investigation into this whole thing. For months and months I read, talked to people both for and against it and prayed for clarity. let me tell ya it was a rollercoaster at first....its real..no its not..wait it might be real..oh, no its not.
So to address the specific questions you had, here is my advice. First, I strongly recomend you NOT seek truth about this particular doctrine from the NIV Bible. Read a few different versions and translations of the verses used to support it and you will see why. I would also look into the history of the churches themselves...who made them, when, why. I had a very hard time finding someone from the charismatic side who would sit down and talk to me honestly about all this, what they believed and why, why they got what they got from certain scriptures etc.. I even went to the main website for AOG and was still dissapointed. They even wrote that their teachings "do not come directly from the scriptures" but are based on "deduction and supposition of a pattern found in the book of acts". My final result was that, while loosely based on the Bible scriptures, these docterines are not Biblical and we should be wary of them.
As for praying in the spirit or praying in tounges, last summer I was finally able to find a pastor who sat with me and explained their stand on it AND used scripture AND told me what he felt it meant. He was the first and still the only one who has done so. He wrote some of it down for me and his notes on this are as follows:
" Romans 8:26,27 And in the same way the holy spirit also help our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, by the holy spirit himself intercedes for us w/ groanings too deep for words and he (jesus) who searches the heart knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he intercedes for the saints according to the will of god."
The bold is my adding and this is from the NAS or NIV, which he perfers. He explained that when you are so distraught or confused that you cant find the English words to pray with, the holy spirit takes you over and speaks God's language out of your mouth on your behalf. It is also added that Satan doesn't understand this Angelic tounge. FINALLY!! someone explained it and it made sense. I was happy.....until I got home and read my other Bibles and online translations...even looked up the words of the verse in Greek. For the area I bolded in the above notes, ALL other Bibles read along the lines of "...holy spirit intercedes for us with groanings/moanings that are un utterable/un uttered/not spoken/unspeakable... They give the idea that nothing from anyone is spoken, because then Jesus, who searches your heart and is one with the mind of the spirit, intercedes for the saints(belivers) according to the will of God(the father). 1 Corinthians is also widely used as support for the charasmatic use of "tounges", but in fact, most of Paul's writtings teach in direct opposition to their usage of it.
The way I get in touch with God..spirit to spirit is very much the same as others have said. When I'm learning about him, in his word, he is right here with me throught the spirit. I'll read, then meditate and think on it, daydream about it, pray inside me or out loud, then just be very relaxed, calm and open to whatever he sends me. Usually it isn't instantaneous, but if I ask for clarity or knowledge, someone or something allways eventually brings it and its like that clice light going on. Connecting with nature is the other way. I'll watch the changing of the seasons and think about how vital they are for our life and how great his love is for us and all his creation. I'll sit and watch mama Robin gathering worms and think "A sinful instinctive nature would say that mama would eat those for herself, yet she knows to feed her babies first. self sacrifice even among the tiny birds. Thats God!" I also think of how complex, intricate and fragile the systems and cycles of life and existence are and marvel...thats God!