Middle east tensions, Israel, end times, and God's existence

[derrick09]

Hey everyone given the situation in Egypt and the growing unrest that the whole middle east has with Israel it has me wondering, what would happen to the overall case for Christianity and the God of the Bible if in the wild instance that Israel were to be vaporized off the map by all the other nutcase middle east countries? I know for a fact it will greatly harm a lot of eschatological models but I guess we could adopt some form of partial perterism to explain away Israel's demise. But I was wondering if anyone here thinks that if this were to happen would it spell the end for the existence of God or at least the God of the Bible? Now again I personally think that you would only have to change eschatological models and reinterpret a few verses here and there, but if you think I"m wrong and that it would spell the reasonable end for Christianity (and certainly Judaism) I'm all eyes.

[MarcusOfLycia]

God's existence isn't contingent upon whether or not Israel exists as a country. They've been conquered before, they could be conquered again. God either exists or He does not.

[derrick09]

Thanks for responding. I certainly agree. I was mostly trying to see how many of you all here take the traditional Christian eschatologial views that are baisically surrounded around Israel and whatever goes on within that country. Many of them act like no matter what happens God will supernaturally keep Israel safe. To me that seems bit of a stretch since after all we haver never seen any major miracles which effect a whole nation since Biblical times. And to go along with that Israel has a less than perfect relationship with God to begin with and if things keep going the way they are with the countries around them they will be in a majorly bad situation. But I will admit they seem to have a very good military for their size.

[RickD]

Thanks for responding. I certainly agree. I was mostly trying to see how many of you all here take the traditional Christian eschatologial views that are baisically surrounded around Israel and whatever goes on within that country. Many of them act like no matter what happens God will supernaturally keep Israel safe. To me that seems bit of a stretch since after all we haver never seen any major miracles which effect a whole nation since Biblical times. And to go along with that Israel has a less than perfect relationship with God to begin with and if things keep going the way they are with the countries around them they will be in a majorly bad situation. But I will admit they seem to have a very good military for their size.

One could make the argument that The 6 day war in 1967 was a miracle. And one could make an argument that God's promises to the nation Israel aren't based on Israel's relationship, but on God doing what He promises. One could also make an argument that the United States has been blessed because of their treatment of Israel, and God's promise in:Genesis 12:3. One could also make an argument that even though virtually all of the Islamic world wants to destroy the tiny little nation of Israel, it still exists. One could certainly use those instances to make an argument for God's blessing being upon Israel.

[Gman]

Thanks for responding. I certainly agree. I was mostly trying to see how many of you all here take the traditional Christian eschatologial views that are baisically surrounded around Israel and whatever goes on within that country. Many of them act like no matter what happens God will supernaturally keep Israel safe. To me that seems bit of a stretch since after all we haver never seen any major miracles which effect a whole nation since Biblical times. And to go along with that Israel has a less than perfect relationship with God to begin with and if things keep going the way they are with the countries around them they will be in a majorly bad situation. But I will admit they seem to have a very good military for their size.

God will keep Israel safe on a promise made thousands of years ago to the Jewish patriarchs Romans 11:28-29. Technically the are locked under God's grace Romans 11:5-6. Currently Israel ranks 11th in the worlds GFP, Global Fire Power. This is VERY significant when you consider the very very small size and population of this country, about the size of the state of Rhode Island, population less than 7 million... I do NOT see how this could happen, within it's conception some 60 years ago in 1948. It's not humanly possible, not without the help of God of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis

[Katabole]

Hi Derrick

I believe Hitler once surmised that if you destroy the Jews, the Bible can't be true. He failed miserably with his final solution. A number of members in our church believe that what is presently happening in Egypt is the prophetic fulfillment of Isaiah ch 19; the burden of Egypt, which has to come to pass for Christ to eventually return. Simon Peres, the former prime minister of Israel was quoted as saying today that Mubarack may have done some bad things, but one thing he did do that was good, was keep the peace with Israel for the last 30 years. I do not see peace being kept with Israel if another hard-lined Islamic regime runs Egypt's new government, considering they assasinated Mubarack's predecessor a few decades ago for creating peace with Israel and Israel is slowing being surrounded by Islamic regimes, Lebanon, Iran etc. I'm not sure who I dislike more, atheists who hate Christianity when they've never read the Bible or orthodox Islamics who like Hitler's Naziism, would destroy Jews and Christians at any given oppurtunity. God is in control and as Jesus says, keep watch! It's a fascinating time to live.

[Gman]

God is in control and as Jesus says, keep watch! It's a fascinating time to live.

Yes God is in control and the gauntlet will come down on those who oppose Him or His plan... Just watch.

You mess with this tiny Jewish state and you will see who is in charge here.

[derrick09]

Let's see even though many of you have not directly answered my question, I"m getting the impression that if Israel ceased to exist a second time (I guess it would be the second time) you all WOULD give up your faith in Christianity and the God of the Bible. Is that what I"m getting? Personally with me as of now, I tend to agree more with Marcus. But also I was wondering how powerful is Israel's military as far as how they would fair by themselves in a war against the rest of the middle east? Also what if they had no help from their "allies" like the US? Aside from God doing a major supernatural miracle (like a red sea parting or resurrection type miracle) how would Israel be able to fight off all these islamic nutjobs?

[Byblos]

Let's see even though many of you have not directly answered my question, I"m getting the impression that if Israel ceased to exist a second time (I guess it would be the second time) you all WOULD give up your faith in Christianity and the God of the Bible. Is that what I"m getting? Personally with me as of now, I tend to agree more with Marcus. But also I was wondering how powerful is Israel's military as far as how they would fair by themselves in a war against the rest of the middle east? Also what if they had no help from their "allies" like the US? Aside from God doing a major supernatural miracle (like a red sea parting or resurrection type miracle) how would Israel be able to fight off all these islamic nutjobs?

Israel is here to stay and nothing will make it disappear. If it were to go away though it would not change my faith one bit.

[MarcusOfLycia]

Let's see even though many of you have not directly answered my question, I"m getting the impression that if Israel ceased to exist a second time (I guess it would be the second time) you all WOULD give up your faith in Christianity and the God of the Bible. Is that what I"m getting? Personally with me as of now, I tend to agree more with Marcus. But also I was wondering how powerful is Israel's military as far as how they would fair by themselves in a war against the rest of the middle east? Also what if they had no help from their "allies" like the US? Aside from God doing a major supernatural miracle (like a red sea parting or resurrection type miracle) how would Israel be able to fight off all these islamic nutjobs?

I think for most people (myself included), it wouldn't be that we would give up our Christian faith. We would simply give up our faith in the interpretation that current-day Israel is the last established nation to bear that name correctly before Christ's return. Israel has actually fought some pretty drastic wars in the past, though, so even from a purely militaristic standpoint, they have a pretty good chance of fighting off invaders.

[RickD]

Let's see even though many of you have not directly answered my question, I"m getting the impression that if Israel ceased to exist a second time (I guess it would be the second time) you all WOULD give up your faith in Christianity and the God of the Bible. Is that what I"m getting? Personally with me as of now, I tend to agree more with Marcus. But also I was wondering how powerful is Israel's military as far as how they would fair by themselves in a war against the rest of the middle east? Also what if they had no help from their "allies" like the US? Aside from God doing a major supernatural miracle (like a red sea parting or resurrection type miracle) how would Israel be able to fight off all these islamic nutjobs?

Derrick, if my faith lied in a religion(Christianity), then I could see how I may lose faith if my interpretation of anything was proven to be wrong. My faith lies in a God who can't lie. He has sealed me with His Holy Spirit, which is a deposit guaranteeing what He has promised.

Now, I believe Israel is under the protection of God. If that is true, the whole world coming against Israel wouldn't make any difference. If the United States, as a nation, goes against Israel, it(the U.S.) would face the same consequences that any other nation would. Like I said before, I believe one important reason we have been blessed as a nation, is because we have blessed Israel. If somehow, this tiny nation that is surrounded by its enemies that have promised to destroy it, is wiped out, then I guess my interpretation of israel's place was wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I had a wrong interpretation.

[Gman]

Derrick... Faith isn't all or nothing at all. Faith or trust is like a table that is held up by many legs. In fact the more legs you have under your table, the stronger is your faith. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, but man's faith. So no, if Israel fell, it wouldn't effect the table but maybe a leg. And if so, then we could say that we got the revelation wrong.

But I don't think so in this case...

And if you want real faith anyway, it comes from DOING the will of God. Renewing your mind and shedding off the old man sin nature. That is how it really works...

What is sin nature? Things of the flesh.. Pornography, lust, drugs, the love of money, materialism, etc.. This is how I found God.

[derrick09]

Thanks guys, now those were the kind of answers I was looking for. That's exactly how I feel as well. Thanks for the clearification. Carry on.

[B. W.]

Hey everyone given the situation in Egypt and the growing unrest that the whole middle east has with Israel it has me wondering, what would happen to the overall case for Christianity and the God of the Bible if in the wild instance that Israel were to be vaporized off the map by all the other nutcase middle east countries? I know for a fact it will greatly harm a lot of eschatological models but I guess we could adopt some form of partial perterism to explain away Israel's demise. But I was wondering if anyone here thinks that if this were to happen would it spell the end for the existence of God or at least the God of the Bible? Now again I personally think that you would only have to change eschatological models and reinterpret a few verses here and there, but if you think I"m wrong and that it would spell the reasonable end for Christianity (and certainly Judaism) I'm all eyes.

Here you go read these verses - interesting...

Isaiah 19:1, 2, 3, 4, "This is the divine revelation about Egypt. The LORD is riding on a fast-moving cloud and is coming to Egypt. Egypt's idols will tremble in his presence. Egypt's courage will fail. 2 "I will turn one Egyptian against another. They will fight- brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. 3 The Egyptians will lose courage. I will unravel their plans. They will turn to idols, ghosts, mediums, and fortunetellers. 4 I will hand over the Egyptians to a harsh master. A strong king will rule them," declares the Almighty LORD of Armies." NKJV
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[Swimmy]

If Israel is destroyed. It would destroy all Christian faith. I don't see it any other way. There is no compromise. It would be the nail in the coffin. The Bible is pretty clear on its protection of Israel and future prophecies. If Isreal is destroyed..A clear contradiction and fallibility of the word of God