Evidence for God from Science

Haven't posted for a while, but since I came across this i think it'd be a good idea to mention it!! I've heard from many sources that the Brown Scapular is a very powerful sacramental, promising that that who wears it when dying will not see the fires of hell. There are actually many stories confirming not only the special graces given before one dies, but also what happens to those who continually refuse to repent, as well as cases when it actually helped in other situations. So I'd like to know your opinions - since not many here are catholics, many may not have heard of it.

There are some online stores where you can get it (even for free, see below) if any would like some. I'm determined to get one quite soon, and also ordered a few for my family etc.

http://www.catholic-church.org/apcarmel/scapular.htm
http://www.cmri.org/05-brownscap.html

http://www.freebrownscapular.com/ is a site for ordering.

At first I thought this may not be the case, but the more I read the more I got convinced it is a powerful tool to help us on our path. I hope God will help us spread this great gift!

Any opinions?

MS

Hi MS. First, it's good to see you again. We've missed you and I'm glad you're still around and doing well.

I went ahead and read the articles you linked to. As I'm not Catholic, it probably won't surprise you that my opinion is not very high of praying to Mary and the tradition that the Scapular comes from. It does seem superstitious to me. I don't find anything in the Bible to support the thinking underneath it and so with all due respect to you, this is not something that I would endorse or encourage,

That said, this also gives me an opportunity to consider my own life and to ask if there are things like this that maybe I don't think about in the same line but nevertheless is pretty similar. I have a silver cross that as a young man I used to wear on a thin chain around my neck. I got into the habit as a young Christian of kissing it as I put it on and took it off. It had meaning to me because it was a reminder to me of the love I had for Christ and I saw that cross as a symbol of Christ and what he did and it just seemed and felt right. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else necessarily nor do I think that my doing it when I was younger made me any different or better than anyone else. It was just something I began to do without be taught or encouraged by anyone else. Now, I don't do anything like that. I have some habits I practice when I'm stressed or anxious about things, like repeating the Serenity Prayer which is very meaningful and calming for me. If that were to cease having that effect, I wouldn't give it a second thought to stop doing it. That's because the action itself isn't so important but what is important is the meaning I ascribe to it and the effect that it has on me.

So, I can't endorse the item and the underlying thoughts behind it, because I don't agree with them. But I recognize that I have things like this that I attach meaning to and for that I can't fault you or others to the extent that something like this has meaning for you.

I think God has already given us the greatest gift and that is salvation through Jesus Christ. That is where our peace and security comes. If this were just pointing us back to that, I'd be less hesitant perhaps and not have a problem with it. As it is though, it looks to me like it's adding some things and some traditions that I don't see in the Bible.

Hope that makes sense. I'm still glad to see you back and I hope you'll stick around.

blessings,

bart

Hey Bart! Yeah i know haven't been here for ages!!

I understand your point of view- that's the typical one of those who don't endorse the Tradition of the RCC and so on. Bible only. However- if you believe, say, salvation is done and for good (OSAS) and that you can't lose it (e.g. by unrepented mortal sin) then you may believe this to be unnecessary. However, if you believe you can lose your grace by committing a mortal sin, then sach a sacramental may be of help.

So, you dont approve of various Virgin Mary apparitions, even those recognized and approved by the RCC? Non-catholics argue this Virgin Mary is un-biblical, deception coming from the devil etc...

However, there are still some good stories about the Scapular... what do you make out of these? Such as, when the person was given grace (e.g. presence of a priest for confession) before dying? That's the thing... when you actually have stories to back it up, which support it, then perhaps need for a change of opinion? If there were no evidence whatsoever, that would be 1 thing, but since we have stories, examples of where it helped? Makes me believe it DOES have this special grace...

MS....hello there, new here to the forum. Thought Id reply as just yesterday I read an article some where concerning one of the Popes who wore a brown scapular and put strong faith into it. However, I too as Bart do not really put any faith in the things like that the the Catholics seem to put very high on their list. At one time quite many years ago I was searching for something or someone to put my faith in as I was very lost on the road of life. A friend invited me to church with him and he was Catholic, I went with him for quite sometime and then upon learning more of the faith decided it wasn't the answer and even though it took me a few years more to find my Salvation in Christ...I came to learn more of the Catholic faith and to this day continue my study of it as I believe the Catholic church and Rome will play a major role in the end times.And I have no ill feelings towards Catholics or any other religion for that matter...we are all of Gods family in my heart.....keep the Faith....

Rascus

Welcome to the forum then its been a while you replied now i see.

so are you saying you started off as an atheist/agnostic, went onto a more catholic side and then gave up? i know of some cases like that. well tbh in the last months/years i do struggle with my faith generally as i have many issues i dont seem to deal with - various contradictions, things that seem illogical, irrational, and many questions that bother me - but now is perhaps not the time to discuss them.
but anyway, so you dont think catholicism has given you the answers? so you just rely on Bible by itself you mean?

Well to many it may seem like a superstition, but once you examine the stories of those who wore it - there is something in it... perhaps people dont believe in it because they dont believe in Virgin Mary's being able to give us visions in the first place? True, Bible doesnt say She can, but that just depends on whether you believe apparitions etc can continue once Christ has died and risen, in my opinion. And whether you take Bible as sole authority or Bible + RCC.