Evidence for God from Science

Hey, everybody! I'm not really good at explaining stories, but I'll try. There's a ship called the Queen Mary that is haunted. Supposedly, a little girl died on that ship and now haunts around the swimming pool. People who go near the pool sometimes see the little girl, capture her on video or on a camera, hear her speak, ect...Later on, it turned out that there were never any records of a little girl dying in the ship. She was made up to bring in more tourists. People who believed in her therefore began making her real. (I hope that made sense ) My question is: How do we know that the only reason the paranormal or supernatural is real is because we believe in it? How do we know if it's not us that's making it real?

Again, I hope this question made some sense!

Dr. Craig puts it something like having two jars, one filled with water and the other filled with an identical looking liquid. Say they're both labeled 'Water', does the incorrect label falsify the correct one?

He puts it better than I do, but that's the best way I can summarize it. In short, false claims of spiritual experience do not falsify real claims of spiritual experience. If it comes down to comparing claims, you'd have to go back to the evidence that each claim would be based on. As you said, the evidence clearly proved the claims of seeing a 'ghost girl' false. In the same way, you can affirm your spiritual experiences with God by backing it up with the evidence of Christianity's truths.

Maytan wrote:Dr. Craig puts it something like having two jars, one filled with water and the other filled with an identical looking liquid. Say they're both labeled 'Water', does the incorrect label falsify the correct one?

He puts it better than I do, but that's the best way I can summarize it. In short, false claims of spiritual experience do not falsify real claims of spiritual experience. If it comes down to comparing claims, you'd have to go back to the evidence that each claim would be based on. As you said, the evidence clearly proved the claims of seeing a 'ghost girl' false. In the same way, you can affirm your spiritual experiences with God by backing it up with the evidence of Christianity's truths.

Thanks for your answer! I have to add onto my question a bit, though. How do we know that Christianity's truths are really are really true? How do we know that we didn't create God by believing in Him?

That's a question others may be able to answer much better than I, and it's a topic that can branch out in many areas. I would suggest checking out Reasons To Believe or Reasonable Faith for some nice resources.

Thanks again for the reply, Maytan

Yeah, I had to bump this thread...So far, I haven't really gotten any good answers to this question. Does anybody else have any thoughts on this?

If paranormal things occurances are true, they will be whether we believe they are or not. If they aren't they won't be real if we believe they are. The same applies to God.

As for how we can know if God is real, that will be impossible to answer in a single post.
The main site though has tons of articles explaining how.

Seraph wrote:If paranormal things occurances are true, they will be whether we believe they are or not. If they aren't they won't be real if we believe they are. The same applies to God.

As for how we can know if God is real, that will be impossible to answer in a single post.
The main site though has tons of articles explaining how.

Thanks for the reply..Here's an interesting link I found.. http://angelsghosts.com/create_ghosts.html Basically, if you didn't read the link, it talks about how "Conscious thought-forms are said to be created through meditation, even ritual." and "Do we unwittingly create conscious life-forms through the power of our mind?" Do you think that the mind can create these things? And if so, then how would we know wether or not God is created by our minds?

Well if it's the Christian God we're talking about, the Bible says He existed long before we did and created the universe. So under our definition of God, He has to exist independently of the human mind. I guess in some new age religion, they might be willing to accept that God somehow came into being through people's thoughts. Or atheism since they say He doesn't exist at all outside of the human mind...

Really though I think that creating ghosts or gods with your mind is just pretending that they exist more than anything. If you create it in your mind it still only exists in your mind, not in the external world.

Seraph wrote:Well if it's the Christian God we're talking about, the Bible says He existed long before we did and created the universe. So under our definition of God, He has to exist independently of the human mind. I guess in some new age religion, they might be willing to accept that God somehow came into being through people's thoughts. Or atheism since they say He doesn't exist at all outside of the human mind...

Really though I think that creating ghosts or gods with your mind is just pretending that they exist more than anything. If you create it in your mind it still only exists in your mind, not in the external world.

So in the case of the "ghost girl" from the Queen Mary (read my first post if you have no idea what I'm talking about), if people's thoughts weren't creating her, what was it?

I think according to the Bible that Ghosts are simply demons or apparations caused by demons (fallen angels) conjoured up to lure people in the occult and dark areas and therefore should be avoided at all costs.

Silvertusk wrote:I think according to the Bible that Ghosts are simply demons or apparations caused by demons (fallen angels) conjoured up to lure people in the occult and dark areas and therefore should be avoided at all costs.

So the human mind has no part in making these things appear? In Tibetan Buddhism, there are creatures called Tulpas that are supposedly created solely by the power of the mind. Or what about poltergeist activity? There's a theory out there that people could unconsciously cause poltergeist activity with their minds (It could still definitely be demonic activity of course). Does the mind have an influence on any of these things?

Kenzel wrote:Hey, everybody! I'm not really good at explaining stories, but I'll try. There's a ship called the Queen Mary that is haunted. Supposedly, a little girl died on that ship and now haunts around the swimming pool. People who go near the pool sometimes see the little girl, capture her on video or on a camera, hear her speak, ect...Later on, it turned out that there were never any records of a little girl dying in the ship. She was made up to bring in more tourists. People who believed in her therefore began making her real. (I hope that made sense ) My question is: How do we know that the only reason the paranormal or supernatural is real is because we believe in it? How do we know if it's not us that's making it real?

Again, I hope this question made some sense!

Hi Kenzel! As Seraph said, the main site is a good place to start….

Just a few thoughts…

This is something I posted awhile back in another thread..(edited for this thread).

God is not asking any more of our ability and capacity to form relationships (using our preferred process or one out of habit) than what is possible. And He is not asking anymore of our ability to experience and analyze or evaluate (etc) that which can be experienced (using our senses, mental capabilities, emotions, morals, spirit, technology and all that humans have dominion over) than what is possible.

Jesus/God wants a relationship with humans…The required process and actions one takes internally (concerning mental and emotional activity or actions/actions in the heart) to enter into that relationship with God does exist and I feel safe saying that all humans have used the process to form a relationship. Some of the circumstances are different (mostly external) but internally, what God/Jesus ask of us concerning entering into a relationship with Him is not unreasonable.

For example…People become our friends when we make it so, until then, even though the potential friend exist, to us their existence as a friend is nonexistent. The nature of God makes him unseen to humans in natural ways but the process is still the same. For a being to become your God (even if the being is a God) you would have to make it so, until then His existence as God in your life is nonexistent. And that is simply how it works for everything we accept in our personal reality. Until we make a relationship a reality, we will have no proof that it exist, their will only be the potential for it to exist.

So, you are correct…In order for Jesus to be an individuals God, they would have to believe Jesus exist and accept Him as God (make Him God in their life)… But then, that’s what God said...Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Until then, Jesus is just someone we don’t know, like a stranger…He may be a good, just and great man/God, loved, respected and celebrated by many. And He can be experienced and the effects of his presences can be observed. But if you do not know Him, how can you be sure He is not who He claims to be, who others say He is? As I said…Until one makes a relationship with Jesus/God a reality, and accepts Him as God, His existence as God in their life is nonexistent.

And the human ability and process used to build associations so that we can form relationships works the same way towards Jesus/God as it does toward anything or anyone else we wish to form a relationship with. So if people do not accept Jesus as God, it is completely fair if He judges them concerning the decisions they made when they used the aforementioned ability and process. And it is fair for Him to determine if the individual performs/performed within His (God’s) definition of a human or not…If not, then there is no reason God should accept the individual as a human, they might pass as an evil god though (not a good thing). It’s no different then us not accepting a person as a friend because they do not act like one. So God breaks no laws or acts in an unacceptable manner concerning this matter.

Also, you can not prove that the people who say they saw a ghost did not see something. It does not have to be the little ghost girl, could have been a demon playing the role in an attempt to cause chaos and doubt (as silvertusk points out)or it could have been anything else, does not have to be peoples imaginations (or it can be). But people were told that their was a little ghost girl in that location, it is not unreasonable for them to observe, analyze and evaluate the site and draw a conclusion based off of their personal perspective of the information they gathered. But the fact they were lied to does not prove that they did not experience something.

Furthermore, things are what we make them…How do I know that the being I call Jesus is the God of the bible? Because, the being I am referring to has the same personality as the God in the bible, He acts the same and after I made Him God in my life, I realized that He was always there, interacting with me, seeking a close relationship with me. I recognized His work in my life and understood more and more of why He did the things He did, out of love for me. I accept Him as God and call Him God, giving Him all the rights and privileges of that title in my life because I perceive that He is more than worthy to be called God and I love Him above all other gods.

Jesus/God left many documents (the bible) and has many witnesses and much proof of His right to be called my God, just as my parents had my birth certificate and other documents, they say they are my parents and had the legal documents to support the claim that they have the right to be called my parents. But I never needed any of that stuff from them to acknowledge the fact that they were my parents, it’s just paper, I don‘t have to believe what is written on any kind of document...period. My parents are my parents because they deserve to be and I choose them, because I do not feel that there are better parents. The being I call God is the one true God of the bible because He deserves to be...there is none better…He is…awesome…and I love Him above all other gods.

People choose their friends (and when they are older and understand that they have a choice) their parents, siblings and many other relationships (human or otherwise) based off of their experience with the person or thing. The nature of the being called I am/Jesus/the Father etc is the nature of a God. God is asking for a relationship, not for us to prove that He is the one and only God do to inherent, physical attributes. Anyone who could test and prove such a thing to themselves would be accountable for their knowledge and actions on a level that God does not wish for anyone who is unsaved….

Also…

Exodus 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Meaning God in God form/true form/full strength..(not in His human vessel/Jesus or images God has diminished so that humans can experience Him). No one is going to see God in His true form before the appointed time,1 John 3:2... If they do, then Jesus is not God. I trust that God’s way is best.

There is also this...Concerning the reality of God’s existence apart from a personal relationship.

Romans 1:18-20

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (KJ)

If people want to tell God that after everything they experienced in life, they found it was more likely than not that He did not exists, it is not going to hold up.

I can hear Him now…God:Really…wow...you thought everything just popped into existence and set itself up with no help from an intelligent being huh? That’s what you thought? Get out of my sight…

Angel: …mockery.

But in any case, your profile says you are a Christian, don’t let your concern (your question in your original post) worrier you, God has it covered.

Thanks for the reply, J.Davis!

Demons exist for a fact. There is no contestation. However, most of the demonic activity will manifest itself invisibly, or by demon possession. If demonic activity manifests itself in the physical, then note that this Demonic force is very present and dangerous.

Responding to your question, does our mind forms things. Other than comsuming drugs or a psychological illness, it is almost impossible to willingly make yourself believe you saw a ghost.

Sometimes, a person may see a ghost, while the other does not. This phenomenom is not clear, but that would be simirlar with Paul's encounter with God, found in Acts 9.

Also, people who constantly watch horror movies tend to have nightmares or even horrific illusions, and that is a response of the mind, because of all the horror scenes watched by that person.

And as for God being formed in our minds/? That would just be too complicated. The Bible was written over a period of centuries, yet all of Scripture flows in harmony. If God was something we created/ formed, how come the WHOLE story of the Bible is coherant. At some point, there would have been mistakes/contradictions, if it was formed by men. If God would be a figure of our imagination, than the Bible would not be a Book of Life, but a Book of Lies