So I've been arguing with this guy

[Swimmy]

About the historical accuracy of the Bible. Of course I posted plenty of evidence of c4 carbon datings and discoveries made. It goes in one ear and out the other. Here's what he said. Post some inane example about harry potter

is Homer's Odyssey "surprisingly accurate in terms of history", as you say the Bible is, because Homer names the same name as real history ?

Let's look at an example you might be able to comprehend better - is Harry Potter "surprisingly accurate in terms of history" because he goes to London's Kings Cross Station ? You don't even need to study archeology or rely on some scholar's translation to understand the inscriptions - you can go there yourself and read the sign for the station in the real world. Same names, same dates (existing in the present time). So what do you think, is Harry Potter surprisingly accurate in terms of history or not ?

[Reactionary]

I've never been to the Kings Cross Station, but I'm fairly convinced that you can't walk through the wall between platforms 8 and 9, and get to the platform 9 3/4 which leads to Hogwarts. This looks like another atheist "argument" which compares belief in God with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Santa Claus, or in this case, Harry Potter. I don't see any logical connection whatsoever.

To be accurate in terms of history means to accurately describe historical events, and be corroborated by archaeological findings, so that we get an impression that the events mentioned really took place. I see nothing of that kind in Harry Potter.

[Swimmy]

I agree. I told him that his conclusion was illogical and didn't make much sense..So we moved on to what archeological finds contradict the Bible. He posted the dating of Jericho destruction being prior to the attack by Joshua

Samples from Tell es-Sultan, Jericho, were selected for high-precision 14C dating as a contribution toward the establishment of an independent radiocarbon chronology of Near Eastern archaeology. The material derives

from archaeological excavations conducted by K. M. Kenyon in the 1950s. We present here the results of 18 samples, associated stratigraphically with the end of the Middle Bronze Age (MBA) at Tell es-Sultan. Six short-lived samples consist of charred cereal grains and 12 multiyear samples are composed of charcoal. The weighted average 14C date of the short-lived grains is 3306 ± 7 BP. The multiyear charcoal yielded, as expected, a somewhat older average: 3370 ± 6 BP. Both dates are more precise than the standard deviation (sigma) of the calibration curves and the absolute standard of oxalic acid. Calibration of the above Jericho dates is a bit premature, because several groups are currently testing the accuracy of both the 1986 and 1993 calibration curves. Nevertheless, preliminary calibration results are presented for comparison, based on 4 different calibration curves and 3 different computer programs. Wiggles in the calibration curves translate the precise BP dates into rather wide ranges in historical years. The final destruction of MBA Jericho occurred during the late 17th or the 16th century BC. More definite statements about the calibrated ages cannot be made until the accuracy of available calibration curves has been tested. Development of calibration curves for the Eastern Mediterranean region would be important.

I cant find much information the subject. Not enough to shutup him on the issue..Maybe this is relevant? Any additional info would be nice as well

Joshua
Following the Exodus, the Israelites wandered in the desert of Sinai for 40 years. The book of Exodus closes with Moses' death and the story of the conquest of the Promised Land begins in the book of Joshua. Until David Rohl's new chronology, there was thought to be little evidence of the conquest in archaeology because the conventional chronology dated the conquest to the Early Iron Age IA. However, under the new chronology, the conquest is in the Middle Bronze Age IIB. Here there is a multiplicity of evidence, giving insight into the events recorded in the Bible.

The first major event recorded in the book of Joshua is the capture of Jericho. Excavations at Jericho have been carried out for almost 100 years but the most exacting work was done by Dame Kathleen Kenyon of the Institute of Archaeology, London, in 1952. With the old chronology, the history of Jericho which she found did not correlate to the accepted timing of the conquest. She found a substantial Middle Bronze Age city with a large outer wall 12 feet thick on top of a glacis or steep slope which was plastered smooth so that any enemy could not get a foothold to come near the wall. The slope was held in place by a large revetment wall of heavy field stones built along the bottom of the glacis. Beyond this wall was a deep ditch. The ditch was found to be filled with the remains of the bricks of the city wall.

The walls of Jericho had indeed come tumbling down' (Joshua 6) and they had in many places filled the defensive ditch at the foot of the steep glacis slope, so enabling the Israelite troops to storm the city. Also found in Jericho were many large earthen jars of carbonised or burnt grain, indicating that the city had been captured rapidly and not after a long siege and famine, as there were lots of supplies. The city, after a sudden capture, had been burned to the ground as is recorded in Joshua 6:24. A layer of ash, in places up to a metre thick, was found, indicating the scale of the fire. Before the redating of the conquest to the Middle Bronze Age, the reason for the destruction of Jericho was unknown. However, now it can easily be viewed as the result of that which Joshua 6:24 speaks of. The city of Jericho after the conquest remained a desolate ruin for several centuries. I Kings 16:34 maintains that Jericho was not rebuilt until the reign of king Ahab in around 850 BC, 550 years later. This is now in the Late Bronze Age and is at the exact time that archaeologists have placed the building of a much smaller settlement at Jericho.

Of the other cities mentioned as having been captured and burned by the invading Israelites in the book of Joshua, excavation of their sites has revealed that 80% of them were destroyed by fire in the Middle Bronze Age, including Bethel, Lachish, Hazor, Debir, Arad and Hebron.

Another interesting find from the excavation of Jericho and other sites in Palestine are numerous scarabs with the name of the Anakite king Sheshai' who ruled in the Middle Bronze Age. Joshua 15:14 and Judges 1:10 both record that Caleb defeated King Sheshi of Hebron during the conquest.

In 1992, the joint Israeli/Spanish mission were digging at the ruins of Hazor, the largest city of Palestine in the Middle Bronze Age. They found a tablet on which was recorded the name of the powerful king of the city (p.317, fig.338). That name was Jabin, the same as the king of Hazor who Joshua defeated as recorded in Joshua 11:1,10! Again, Hazor was found to have been completely destroyed during the Middle Bronze Age as recorded in the biblical account of the conquest.

Archaeology at Shechem, one of the most prominent sites in the early biblical history of Israel, has revealed a remarkable consistency with the biblical account. Here Abraham rested under the Oak of Moreh (Genesis 12:6), here Jacob erected an altar to El, the God of Israel' (Genesis 33:18-20). Joshua set up a large stone here as a memorial to the covenant God made with Israel (Joshua 24:25,26). Abimelech, son of Gideon, burned the people of Shechem alive in punishment for their rebellion against him, as they sheltered in their massive temple-fortress (Judges 9:46-49).

A temple dating to Middle Bronze Age IIB, the time of Joshua, has been found there. It has been identified as that in which the people of Shechem sheltered from Abimelech. The sacred stone which Joshua erected (Joshua 24:25,26) has been found and now stands for tourists to see; it was discovered in the earlier part of this century by Ernst Sellin who re-erected it in its place. This action was viewed with skepticism by many under the old chronology where the conquest was dated to the Early Iron Age. However, there can now be little doubt that this large white rock is indeed the stone erected by Joshua, standing to this day to witness the renewing of the covenant over 3000 years ago.

Sojourn
The length of the sojourn of the Israelites in Egypt is now taken by many biblical scholars as around 215 years. The key verse in the determination of this is Exodus 12:40. In the Masoretic text, this verse says:-

"Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years."

However, the Masoretic Hebrew text dates from the 4th century AD and the earliest surviving copy is from the 10th century. The Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) was made under Ptolemy I in the 3rd Century BC and the earliest copy is centuries older than the oldest full Masoretic text we possess. It records the full version of Exodus 12:40 as:-

"Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt and Canaan, was 430 years."

This rendering of the verse is also found in the Samaritan Pentateuch, again older than the Masoretic text. Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews' (XV:2), writing in the 1st century, also gives the length of time from Abraham entering Canaan to the Exodus as 430 years. Therefore, in the Masoretic text, it is safe to say that the words "and Canaan" - i.e. the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - have been omitted in transcription over many centuries. Furthermore, I Chronicles 7:22-27 records ten generations from Joshua back to Joseph's son Ephraim, who was a boy of around five years when Jacob arrived in Egypt. Taking a standard average generation length of 20 years, we again arrive at a sojourn time of approximately 200 years. Josephus (op.cit.) records that from the time of Jacob's entry into Egypt until the Exodus there was a period of 215 years. Adding this to the Exodus date of 1447 BC from Edwin Thiele's biblical chronology, we arrive at a date of 1662 BC for Jacob's arrival in Egypt. Alternatively, by adding 430 years, we arrive at a figure of 1877 BC for Abraham's arrival in Canaan

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/rohl-1.htm


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Okay so if its actually 215 years instead of 430 years....Does that put Joshua in the proper timeframe to conquer Jericho? It seems odd that this would be wrong. Yet scripture is pretty accurate abut what happened to Jericho and its neighbors in archeology

[Telstra Robs]

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/thera.html

Sources used are under the article. It states that the destruction of Jericho is at 1580 BC. It is also 48 years after the eruption of the Theran volcano (a massive eruption). Considering the 40 years the Israelites spent in the desert, a correlation between the ash from this massive eruption and the plague of darkness over Egypt has been suggested.

he Bible has not mentioned dates. Why is this date prior to Joshua?

[Swimmy]

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/thera.html

Sources used are under the article. It states that the destruction of Jericho is at 1580 BC. It is also 48 years after the eruption of the Theran volcano (a massive eruption). Considering the 40 years the Israelites spent in the desert, a correlation between the ash from this massive eruption and the plague of darkness over Egypt has been suggested.

he Bible has not mentioned dates. Why is this date prior to Joshua?

I tried that. But none of the sources are linked. So I don't know where to get them other than going out and buying the book.

This is what he said. Hes very angry.

The walls of bronze-age Jericho built about 1800BC were already destroyed at the relevant time for any possible claim that biblical Joshua conquered it after Exodus. There was nothing there for Joshua to conquer.

The previous walled city of Jericho, destroyed about 2500 BC is way way too early to make any difference to your claim.

The following city of Jericho, the one known to the actual writers of the OT, was not established until about 900BC, and the site in between 1600-900BC was either uninhabited or nothing more than a sheep camp.

Makes no difference how many times Jericho was rebuilt since it was empty when your supposed history of conquest occurred. But feel free to keep flipping those red herrings to stink up your discussion

[Telstra Robs]

Give him the book source.

Bruins, H.J. and J. van der Plicht. 1996. The Exodus enigma. Nature 382: 213-214.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... 213a0.html (Article citations, not the article itself) (The citations link to MANY articles)

Radiocarbon Vol. 37, Number 2, 1995.) [Another source]

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Its funny how people are saying that the destruction of Jericho is too early for Joshua when they used to say that it was too late for Joshua

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What source did he give you?

[Swimmy]

So what is the date for Joshua? Where do they get there dates that it was too early or too late? Is it based on the genealogy presented by Ussher?

[Telstra Robs]

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... ogies.html

Problems with accepting geanolgies as complete lie in the fact that many references to "father" in the Bible have a Hebrew word of ancestor. Not to mention that Ussher had the Earth at 6000 years while the Bible says that humans have existed for 1000 generations(http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/sld016.html) (about 50,000 years considering that while a Biblical generation is usually listed as 40 years, the first few would have been quite long considering the lifespans of Adam and his close descendants).