Evidence for God from Science

I am not a very good debating-type person. I tend to get overly involved, and especially when they are online I tend to avoid doing anything responsible and just throw myself at them full force and forget about all the important things I'm supposed to do.

Does anyone else have this issue? My real question is: How does one go about holding back? I know a lot of the time it isn't worth my time to start because those involved can be really nasty/hateful/dishonest. Sometimes that isn't the case, but it is too often for me.

Heh... like I said... its kind of a weird question.

Thanks!

Yeah, i have this problem too on facebook but i only start if they are being very trollish ( sometimes) or just outright wrong ( most of the time). If its just their opinion that they are stating in a respectful manner then i just move along. LOL but when i hear christianity is irrational compared to athiesm or silly hateful remarks only bent on hurting then POW right in the kisser hahaha i jk.... just go scream in a pillow

For me, the most important thing is to give it time. I wait a little while, and then see if I still find it worth responding to or not. If I find it worth responding to, I certainly read and reread my post before getting into a big debate.

Then, being courteous almost always helps. I try to avoid using combative language, and generally it helps in a debate setting.

Having said that, I usually only point out obvious logical fallacies, I really don't feel like online debates are worth it.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:I am not a very good debating-type person. I tend to get overly involved

I know. So do I.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:How does one go about holding back? I know a lot of the time it isn't worth my time to start because those involved can be really nasty/hateful/dishonest. Sometimes that isn't the case, but it is too often for me.

It's difficult to control yourself when your views are being mocked and humiliated. I've recently read that "An intellectual can't be a believer. Religion is for the poor and dumb." How could one respond to that? I agree with the poster above me that it's not worth it. You can't change the opinion of an ignorant, you can only get angry and nervous.

The bad thing is that they flooded the Internet. Approximately 90% of the citizens of my country are Christians, yet one of the sites I frequently visit published a poll about religion, and not surprisingly, 60% declared themselves as atheists, not agnostics or nonreligious, but atheists. Most of those "freethinkers" regularly mock the Church, believers, family values, anything related to Christianity.

I'll admit that it makes me angry. We Christians are the majority, at least over here, yet we do nothing to fight this discrimination. If you start to criticise atheism though, that's another story. Atheists will start to play victims, and you'll quickly be accused for "intolerance".

I don't know... If they continue to bring up the Crusades and the Inquisition whenever Christianity is mentioned, I'll consider putting a Crusader knight as a FB profile picture.

Glad to see I'm not the only one with this problem! Not just with religion though. I'm involved in various hobby-forums, and it seems that no matter the subject, having an active debate sucks up *all* of my time. For that reason, I've been teaching myself to just ignore it. I'm much more interested in a face-to-face conversation anyway, with people who are actually interested. (instead of trying to reason with all the axe-grinders online)

Reactionary wrote:I don't know... If they continue to bring up the Crusades and the Inquisition whenever Christianity is mentioned, I'll consider putting a Crusader knight as a FB profile picture.

That would be quite funny!

Thanks guys! And I'm glad (and sad) that I'm not alone in this.

I'm going to try to avoid the things altogether and talk to those people who have respect for me mutually in face to face contact. I think that might be my route out.

I can usually ignore people that spout unfounded and just plain wrong views on Christians, however I do have a BIG problem when I see people that claim to be Christian but are acting anything BUT Christian in their posts. I once read about someone (of course claiming to be of the ONLY true Christian church), and he was proud of the fact that when he found out that his son was gay he kicked him out of his house at gunpoint. Then he was offended when I said that he probably would be one that would shoot an abortion doctor proudly as a Christian, giving atheist ammunition for their posts.

In any case, though it is difficult, I tell people that tell me how stupid I am for believing that perhaps I am stupid, but I am at peace and happy with my decision and if I am not directly brought in to the conversation, I stay away...

Reactionary wrote: family values

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. -- Matthew 10:35-36

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.-- Mathew 10:37

every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. -- Mathew 19:29

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. -- Mathew 8:22 (too a man who has just lost his father)

Good job using verses out of context....try researching what they mean before cherry picking verses

LOL,

Zoegirl wrote: Good job using verses out of context

Well put ZoeG,

zoegirl wrote:Good job using verses out of context....try researching what they mean before cherry picking verses

Kristoffer wrote:

Reactionary wrote: family values

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. -- Matthew 10:35-36

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.-- Mathew 10:37

every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. -- Mathew 19:29

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. -- Mathew 8:22 (too a man who has just lost his father)

Hi Kristoffer!

If Jesus meant what you are implying then it would contradict many biblical elements. So yes, as Zoegirl said, you are taking the scriptures out of context and He does not mean what you are suggesting.

Jesus is speaking to the disciples for the most part and not to all Christians, He is also prophesying (speaking of the future) in several of the scriptures.

This is a bit rushed but I think it’s clear enough..

In the scriptures before Matthew 10:35, Jesus gives the disciples instructions and tells them to minister to the Jews (preach that the time of the messiah/Jesus is at hand as well as heal the sick, cast out demons etc Matthew 10:5,6,7,8). He also says, those who reject Him (Jesus/God), the good news and the things of God, are not worthy of taking part in the glory of heaven (Matthew 10:14,15). Furthermore, Jesus states that He is sending the disciples into an area where many are unfriendly towards their kind and will treat them cruelly for His sake, but He will guide them (Matthew 10:16,19,20).

Next Jesus says, (because of the previously stated/invite Jews to receive Jesus’ message and ministry, and because of the words I will give you in response to those who stand against you)…Matthew 10:21-22 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. So Jesus is prophesying in Matthew 10:21-22... And of course, Jesus’ true Christians will never leave Him (but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved).

So take note, the things mentioned in Matthew 10:21-22 are things that will happen as a undesired result of Jesus instructions to the disciples, done with good and righteous intent as he carries out His plan to save His creation, because He loves them, not because of a calculated intentional act on Jesus’ part to cause death and suffering. So because of the sins, corruption and evil in the human heart, they will bring the things in Matthew 10:21-22 upon themselves.

Just to give an example, if a woman is being abused (physically and mentally) and oppressed by a jealous corrupt man and an individual tries to take the woman from the man and put her in a safe environment, the good actions of the individual may cause the abusive man to become angry and violent and he may try to cause harm to the woman or individual that is taking the woman from him, because he does not want to lose everything she provides and he is to weak to keep her any other way.

Now I’ll skip ahead to the scriptures you mention.. ..

Matthew 10:34-36 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD

First understand that Jesus is speaking from His perspective (the perspective of God).

Now, because of what Jesus said previously and because of the things he said up to Matthew 10:34-36, it means that He has not come to bring peace as it is defined by corrupt sinful humans (remember my example concerning the woman abusing man, his idea of peace is for the woman to stay under his control). But He has come to change the nature and beliefs of a family member so that they have God’s nature and beliefs and disagree with those family members who still have the ungodly nature and beliefs the child of God left behind.

I have witnessed this many times, family members do not always behave lovingly when they feel the one they love has changed or has left them behind. But as far as Jesus is concerned (and I agree), this type of occurrence is necessary and good, hopefully the Christian family member will draw their family to God. But no matter what, it is right for a good God to do the right thing and free His creation from oppression and bondage.

Matthew 10:37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

In the context of everything Jesus has said, it means, despite the results caused by what He previously mentioned in Matthew 10:34-36, a disciple/Christian should love God enough to do the right thing, as He has instructed in the pervious scriptures (minister). It does not mean that we should not give our family the things they are entitled to.

Matthew 19:29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

First, Jesus is not saying that anyone has to do what He mentions in Matthew 19:29 in order to be saved.

Matthew 19:29 is in the context of what I mentioned previously. Remember that He is talking to disciples here, they did leave all those things. So this speaks to people who wish to make a career of doing what Jesus has instructed His disciples to do. Also, this is not a requirement to be a disciple, some will have little to nothing to leave anyway. Those who make a career of this will reap the benefits Jesus mentions as a result of the type of work they do. Furthermore, people that do make this commitment to God love doing it, also, Jesus would not leave the disciples families without the support they need, the church took care of them.

This is also true…anyone who sacrifices their needs in order to do what God needs done (minister and help people) will have the things Jesus speaks of according to their works, all Christians will sacrifice in this way, Jesus just gives the examples above because that is what the disciples gave up. But He is not speaking of those things exclusively, it concerns decisions you make with your heart (heart defined as the things God alone understands) and can be as simple as giving up your favorite TV show, normal routine, game etc (nonessential things you feel you must have) in order to minister to a person, and that can be done many ways in our time (each person will know when it is truly a sacrifice because of what they feel God needs (Matthew 10:41,42).

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

This is what Jesus told the disciples in Matthew 10: 26,27,28...(in short, and in my own words) Jesus tells the disciples not to fear men because of their reaction to the gospel and things of God, boldly speak that which is good, the things I have given you to say and accept my guidance, do not fear those who have power to cause the type of suffering you can comprehend, be fearful that your failure to do that which is right and just will cause suffering you can not comprehend (given the fact that God knows the horrible suffering of those in hell, one should conclude that Jesus is right and for the disciples, carrying out His instructions is way more important than any pain they will have to endure on earth, but Jesus is not threatening the disciples nor is he saying that any disobedience on their part will cause them to suffer in hell).

Therefore, He needed disciples who understood that His instructions were of the utmost importance. And the work He had for them was part of the labor required in order to provide salvation for us all. That work is done now and the disciple has all of eternity to spend with his father.

^

great responce , explained that very well