Evidence for God from Science

I wanted a honest opinion on this rather long winded view on the issue of suffering, thanks in advance

There are perhaps no greater issues that rack a believer and “drive” people to atheism then the issues of why God permits evil and suffering in our world.

While the issue of evil can be explained via the free will that all humans have- free will to do good and free will to do evil- a free will that is only free if humans are free to be good or evil, the issue of suffering is another matter.
We suffer because of evil, yes, but also because of the nature of the world we live in.
The world is the way it is because it can be no other way.
We have tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes and many other “natural disasters” that cause suffering, a suffering that many people thing that God should “do something about”.
While we all agree that natural occurrences are just that and that there is nothing evil about them, they still cause suffering.
Then we have the issue of suffering caused by death and pain, either our own or more typically, our loved ones.
Both from illnesses or diseases or simply the natural order of things – we grow old and then we die.
People wonder why their heart-filled prayer, their sincere and loving devotion to God, doesn’t somehow “protect” them and their loved ones from this suffering.

First off, lets us realize that for the atheist that doesn’t believe in God or the supernatural that the issue of why God permits suffering is NOT an issue at all, one can hardly have an issue with someone or something that doesn’t exist.

Let is turn to the believer then.

In all of nature, perhaps no other creature understands and is outraged about suffering and death than Humans.
We feel that we should NOT suffer, should not die, that there MUST be a reason for suffering and that suffering is no fair or just, especially it seems the humans that believe in God.
No other animal feels this way about life or suffering or death, animals typically view these things as part of life and the natural cycle of things, they don’t stop and yell out to the heavens, “no fair “!!

Theology tells us that it is because of humans being made in God’s image that we have these feelings, these beliefs that drive us to say that life is not fair, to right wrongs, to correct injustice, to do what is right.
It is also this belief in a God that DOES care and CAN do something about suffering that makes us ask “Why do we suffer?”

Why can’t God just stop the suffering? Why can’t God just stop all illness? Cure all diseases? Keep people from dying?

God made the universe and the universe is the way it is because God made it so, it is neither “good” nor is it “bad”, it is the way it is because it can be no other way.
God is revealed to us not only in the Bible, not only in His Living Word, His Son Jesus Christ, not only via the power of the Holy Spirit but by the universe that we know, the universe that we discover, the universe that God created from nothing, God is revealed in ALL his creations and the Universe is THAT creation.

Nature is part of that universe and nature has Laws, Laws established by God and nature has a life cycle, a cycle established by God, Nature is what God made it to be.

Death, illness and disease is part of that nature, all living things live and die, some are killed, some simply die when their allotted time is up, some die from illness or diseases, but all living creatures die, they are finite.

Let’s leave the issue of the spirit and the resurrection for later and let us focus on why we suffer and why it is such an issue for us.

If we were not made in the image of God, death would not lead to suffering, it would not even be conceivable to suffer much less complain about death, it is a part of life an inevitable part of life.
But we are made in God’s image and as such we know LOVE, that all powerful force that drives us to be more than we are, to be more than an animal that simply exists to propagate his or her genes into the next generation.
Love is what makes us say “not right” to an injustice, to make us correct a wrong, to forgive a wrong, to give more of ourselves than any other creature on this planet.
In short, Love is what makes us in the Image of God.
It is also what makes us suffer.

Let that sink in, love makes us suffer.

“Tis better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all”.
Tennyson was right of course, no matter how painful losing someone we love is, it is that very love that makes us Human, makes us in God’s image.

See, we suffer because we love, we rage against death because death takes away those we love.
No love, no suffering.
God can take away suffering and answer our prayers, but since we suffer because we love that means taking away our capacity to love, in other words, taking away what makes us in God’s image.

Not only would God never do that, God is not cruel, deep down we would never want that.

Nothing defines us more than Love and nothing strengthens us and drives us to great heights (and lows) than Love.


We suffer when our pet dies because we loved that pet, we suffer when we see children, even those we don’t know, suffering because we love each other and we know, we sympathize, we have empathy, for them and their families (also traits we have because we are created in God’s image).
Certainly if we felt nothing we would not suffer.

It is not incorrect to say that to truly know and understand, to truly love, we must know what it is to lose love, and we must know suffering.

The words “passion” that we use for that all consuming love is also the word for suffering.
Let that sink in.

Some will say why can’t God keep love and get rid of suffering?

Did God take away the suffering of His Only Begotten Son? Did God not suffer with him?
At one point Jesus, who had been in the bosom of His Father since before the creation of the universe, cried out, “My God, why have you forsaken me?”
Jesus felt alone, felt lost, felt suffering like never before, just like we do.
God did not forsake his Son; God does not forsake Us and know one knew this better than His Divine Word, His Son.
And yet, even Christ felt “forsaken”, Christ was never as human as that moment when he carried all the sins of the world unto himself, so we certainly shouldn’t beat ourselves up when we do ask, “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
We just need to remember, as proven by Christ, that Our Father has not forsaken us and never will.

God’s nature is love; he can no more take away suffering and love than he can change His nature that is unchangeable.

Why does God permit suffering?
Because the alternative would be unfathomable, unthinkable and most of all, far more cruel than the worse possible suffering we can imagine.

For the believer, James, tells us that we should take a whole different perspective to our sufferings. There are sufferings that are consequences of our actions but we also may suffer for doing good deeds as well as suffering from things outside our control. When we suffer for things that are not consequences of our actions, we are told to rejoice. Say what ? Yep, 'count it all joy'. Why ? Because God is allowing us to experience life in a way that builds godly character in us. We learn what perseverance is all about. Read James chapter 1. When a believer suffers and has this perspective, their life reflects something the world doesn't have. If we want to become more like Jesus we will embrace suffering as an opportunity to grow spiritually. We are not sadists and/or look for ways to suffer but rather believe that God is loving us and working things for our good when He does not step in and remove certain sufferings.

Hope that part was not 'long winded'.

During the 20 years of my life I suffered more than an average member of my generation (though there are always people in a worse situation, so I don't/shouldn't complain). When I was at the bottom I would ask myself "Why does this happen to me?", "What did I do to deserve it?" etc. Those are the wrong questions to ask. The correct one would be, "What can I learn from it?" When I look back at the problems of my past, I realize that each of them brought an important lesson and made me stronger and more mature, so that every new problem bothers me less. Today, if I could change my past and remove everything bad, I wouldn't do it because I'd also remove the lessons I learned... I guess that's the way God teaches us, when there isn't a better way, we have to learn some things painfully. Though I'm still far from understanding this issue completely, I believe I'm doing well for a 20-year-old.

PaulSacramento wrote:Did God take away the suffering of His Only Begotten Son? Did God not suffer with him?
At one point Jesus, who had been in the bosom of His Father since before the creation of the universe, cried out, “My God, why have you forsaken me?”
Jesus felt alone, felt lost, felt suffering like never before, just like we do.
God did not forsake his Son; God does not forsake Us and know one knew this better than His Divine Word, His Son.
And yet, even Christ felt “forsaken”, Christ was never as human as that moment when he carried all the sins of the world unto himself, so we certainly shouldn’t beat ourselves up when we do ask, “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
We just need to remember, as proven by Christ, that Our Father has not forsaken us and never will.

Exactly what I always point out when discussing this - Jesus himself wasn't excused from suffering, in fact He suffered a lot more than most of us will during this life. And even He doubted for a moment - so no wonder we, ordinary people, do so too. Unfortunately, many give up their faith without a fight, not even trying to look at the big picture and understand what it all means.

We ultimately agree that the world without what we call "suffering" would be radically different... for the worse. Some might say that it's easy to preach from a comfortable chair in an air-conditioned room, but to be honest, the more my faith grows stronger, the less I care about the material, earthly things, regardless of whether they are positive or negative.

I think this is one of the most adequate ways I have seen suffering of mankind justified. It was very nicely put and thought out.

Why does God permit suffering?
Because the alternative would be unfathomable, unthinkable and most of all, far more cruel than the worse possible suffering we can imagine.

it is a very clever argument and one that can be proven if pursued however on the part I have quoted above, let me say that God doesn't allow suffering or permits it (book of Job is a rare matter in this case). Human beings suffer because they want to live, always. when all is said and done, suffering comes to the point of either death or permanent humiliation. Humans can't abide that. If it up to us we'd all be alive till the next millennium. We do not suffer because we love, we suffer because we do not know any better and that we want life more than anything. so anything that threats to end it becomes bad. This is merely an outcome not a blame.

Paul says that our suffering brings more glory than we could fathom, where is that glory? I have yet to see it. But I am sure that suffering is accounted for in the end when we stand before God. on the other hand the suffering that mankind suffers from natural disasters, I think God never gave much weight to it. The only time God did say something was when he promised Noah He wouldn't wipe the world again with a flood.

In my POV, while God is at the back and pulling all the strings. he doesn't interfere, unless he has made a promise or a prophecy. Other than that, things end at the their natural outcomes. And when something comes out of the blue, like a tsunami or a massive earthquake, than God is not responsible. May be those people died because it was their time. may be because the devil has also some power and the book of revelation says that he was cast on earth in rage and he is furious, so he killed them or simply enough it was a natural disaster caused by the movement of tectonic plates.

Also the book of revelation tells us that in the end days, earthquakes, wars, tsunamis, falling stars, etc etc will be numerous and ever increasing. and honestly, they would be result of the Wrath of God. I wonder what believers or people around the world will say to that. and it implies that some will blaspheme God. Because then it would be the hand of God, unlike the present (who knows) we only get this problem because we want a utopia and that is only possible when God establishes his kingdom among men.

So I would say that the alternative is not impossible, it simply can not exist in a world that has excluded God out (most of the world anyways), that is ever increasing in sin and that is hell bent to prove that there is no God.

Thank you for your opinions

The problem of suffering in the context of a universe which is created by an omnipotent and loving God is commonly known as a "Theodicy". It's at the heart of many atheists and agnostics stated reason for either rejecting the existance of God or the goodness of God. How one resolves this issue will depend almost entirely upon the presuppositions that one takes into the argument to begin with. The conclusions will likely mirror those presuppositions that are taken in.

I have examined a lot of the logic and philosophy behind the theodicy as well as the history of how it's been approached and peace made with it (or not) for a long time. One of the better books that I've read, which ticks a lot of people off is The Shack. It uses a narrative approach that illustrates how our view of God's character shapes our answer not only to the nuts and bolts of the question, intellectually but also how the view we take of God conditions us to how we respond emotionally and spiritually toward God.

Not an answer in the same vein as the question, but for what it's worth, just thought I'd toss that in.

I would think that suffering is actually good. If you come from the standpoint that all suffering is bad, then how else are we expected to grow? Doesn't a baby fall down and get's hurt as he learns to walk? When a tree is pruned by the wind or a storm, does it not come back stronger?

I would think that suffering is actually good. If you come from the standpoint that all suffering is bad, then how else are we expected to grow? Doesn't a baby fall down and get's hurt as he learns to walk? When a tree is pruned by the wind or a storm, does it not come back stronger?

I think this might be the only option generally speaking, which could justify suffering as something good comes out of it. However when God establishes his Kingdom he would end suffering so in that case I would not say it is a truly good thing.

PaulSacramento wrote:Thank you for your opinions

Paul, I don't think you will convince the non-believer with this view on suffering. If it edifies you personally and others on here, then more power to you. It's a mystery to which none of us can hope to find the absolute answer. It's not a stumbling block for the apologist at all. The atheist, when he raises the issue, betrays an indignation which flatly contradicts his atheism. Given naturalism he has no call to be indignant at suffering. So it is wise to say to the atheist, "Welcome to Christian theology, and now that you recognise that suffering is an issue, let's move forward together and see if we can find an answer..." And I must say that I think sudsy's answer is a pretty good one, and he must surely be on the right track...

Sudsy wrote:When we suffer for things that are not consequences of our actions, we are told to rejoice. Say what ? Yep, 'count it all joy'. Why ? Because God is allowing us to experience life in a way that builds godly character in us. We learn what perseverance is all about. Read James chapter 1. When a believer suffers and has this perspective, their life reflects something the world doesn't have. If we want to become more like Jesus we will embrace suffering as an opportunity to grow spiritually. We are not sadists and/or look for ways to suffer but rather believe that God is loving us and working things for our good when He does not step in and remove certain sufferings.

Part of the issue here has to do with the definition of "suffering" and if indeed prior to the fall there was no decomposition, no natural processes or death outside of the spiritual and human death introduced at the fall. If there were in fact, then the restoration of a new heaven and a new earth doesn't by definition preclude those elements following either.

The idea of "perfection" in the sense of absolutely no natural processes is ultimately something of a greek philosophical and even a gnostic idea, and seen by many as foreign to the Hebrew texts involved in the OT.

Paul, I don't think you will convince the non-believer with this view on suffering.

I personally think there is no point that can justify suffering to the non-believer unless one is ready to accept it without questions. There is so much going on that it is hopeless to defend it through religion.

A few things:
Canukster, I agree, "The Shack" is an excellent read, if one can approach it with no preconceived ideas or at lest, limited preconceived ideas.
It was instrumental and me finding my Lord.
I agree with Neo and add this:
For those that don't believe in God, the issue of suffering is not an issue, suffering simply is a biochemical reaction, an emotional response to an emotional attachment, nothing more, nothing less.
My post was direct to a believer that suffered a loss and I got a reply to this email I sent Him and it was a very loving and encouraging response.
Can't ask for much more than that, can I?

PaulSacramento wrote:For those that don't believe in God, the issue of suffering is not an issue, suffering simply is a biochemical reaction, an emotional response to an emotional attachment, nothing more, nothing less.

Agreed.

PaulSacramento wrote:My post was direct to a believer that suffered a loss and I got a reply to this email I sent Him and it was a very loving and encouraging response.
Can't ask for much more than that, can I?

I thought your post was directed at members of this board, but I'm glad somebody found solace in your words.

Danny

Danny, it was originally direct at someone else but I wanted the boards opinion on it, sorry, I should have been more clear.

PaulSacramento wrote:Danny, it was originally direct at someone else but I wanted the boards opinion on it, sorry, I should have been more clear.

No, Paul, that's fine. For what it's worth I thought your post was quite an effort, even if I don't agree with the line you took. And if it has helped a brother in need then it's done its intended job!

Danny