Evidence for God from Science

On June 28th 1914, archduke Franz Ferdinand of the Austrian Hungarian empire was assassinated by Gavrilo Princep, an event that would cause the rise of atheism, decline of moral, and the rise of dictators. The little known fact is that Gavrilo Princep was a devout atheist, and one of the motives (besides nationalism) for assassination the archduke was that the archduke was trying to further implement Christian doctrine in the country and its newly acquired territories at this time. This infuriated Gavrilo, and on that fateful day, he changed the world forever. The assignation caused the spark on the fuse, and the heavy alliance system in Europe finally was tested, and the result was disastrous. World War I would eventually account for the deaths of over 40 million people, and the direct effects of the war would carry a far greater toll. World war one would completely destroy the Russian empires strength and would open the door for some previously unknown revolutionaries, and would introduce the world to a new form of government, communism. With the door open, Lenin would establish the USSR and would eventually lead to Stalin taking power, another wonderful atheist (another fun fact: Stalin murder/genocide toll is estimated to be at least twice as large as the holocaust). However Russia was not the only country affected by world war I, Germany had it worst. After the war Germany was blamed with sole responsibility for the war, causing mass economic depression in the already demoralized country. The allies also a established a extremely weak German government known as the Weimar republic. During this time a decorated German copal named Adolph Hitler would establish a new political party, one that would promise to restore Germany to her once elite status, and as a empire. Hitler would of course go on to commit genocide on the Jewish, homosexual, and catholic population of Europe, along with starting the second world war. World war I also contributed to the growth and industrialization of small island country off the coast of Asia, Japan. After world war I Japan was granted all of Germanys pacific island imperial claims; these islands contained vast amounts of resources which would further feed japans industrialization and militarization. With these new resources Japan grew and grew economically and industrially, but Japan would need more resources to fuel its industrial need, so in 1931 Japan invaded Manchuria. They would go on to brutalize and to an extend commit genocide on the Manchurian people. This act rightfully outraged Americans and caused FDR to create an embargo on Japan; this would lead to Pearl Harbor and the united states entrance into WWII. World war II would cause mass unrest in Europe, Asia, Africa, and the middle east after the war. The reason for this being after the war most all European countries (except Belgium) would remove their colonial governments, or in the case of France try to regain them (thus the Vietnam War).

So if you wish to add up the death toll of WWI, WWII, The winter war, The Japanese invasion and occupation of Manchuria, the holocaust, the murderous reign of Stalin, the Chinese revolution, the Korean war, the Vietnam war, and pearl harbor, its in the 400 million dead range, thus all caused by an atheist and putting to rest the silly little fairy tale of “religion starting all wars”.

The world was on "route" to a war before that, lets not forget that war, in one form or another, had been happening all over Europe and Asia.
The assasination of Franz was, perhaps, the icing on the cake, but it was only that because the cake was already there.
The seeds for atheisim had already been sowed in the many decades and centuries before that.
Atheisim is an attractive ideology for those that crave power with responsibility and religion was a great target for them since all its mistakes were so easily pointed out.
Fact is that it was "bad religion" that created atheisim.

I didn't know Princip was an atheist... Interesting. Although Paul is right that this is not the best argument for linking atheism with war, it's quite good enough for countering extremely ignorant and recycled "claims" about Christianity causing wars. Personally, when I respond to such nonsense, I usually resort to the influence of Darwinism over Nazism and Communism, two main causes of misery in the 20th century. There is a good article on the main site about that topic.

How do you know for certain that his Athiesm motivated what he did and why is it HIS fualt that the war happened anyway. Also were is the evidence for this base assertion. I think you are just trying to tar the Ethics of MILLIONS of Good men and women who just don't happen to believe in your invisible friend. Athiesm is not a reason to start a war or even kill someone, do you even know what athiesm is?

Rejecting a claim. How does that start a war? Maybe you ought to consider that people can be athiests or theists and have other ideologies that cause them to act and do things that they consider to be the right thing to do, athiesm doesn't make anyone do anything. Its a non-player charecter.

In short: he did it because of political reasons not because of his religion or lack thereof.

Kristoffer wrote:I think you are just trying to tar the Ethics of MILLIONS of Good men and women who just don't happen to believe in your invisible friend.

By what standard do you consider people good or bad then?

Kristoffer wrote:Athiesm is not a reason to start a war or even kill someone, do you even know what athiesm is?

Rejecting a claim.

Nice try, but wrong. Atheism is a worldview, just like Christianity. A belief that nothing exploded, arranged itself in perfect order (for no reason) into planets where pond scum magically came to life and gradually evolved into humans. There is your invisible friend... God of Chance.

Kristoffer wrote:How does that start a war? Maybe you ought to consider that people can be athiests or theists and have other ideologies that cause them to act and do things that they consider to be the right thing to do, athiesm doesn't make anyone do anything. Its a non-player charecter.

Typical atheist cop-out.

Reactionary wrote:
By what standard do you consider people good or bad then?

It is so simple that even a child can do it, by my own standard obviously, How do you judge wether your god is a good god or not? Obviously by your standard. Note that since Yahweh is a bronze age god he cannot defeat iron chariots (source: bible)

Nice try, but wrong. Atheism is a worldview, just like Christianity. A belief that nothing exploded, arranged itself in perfect order (for no reason) into planets where pond scum magically came to life and gradually evolved into humans. There is your invisible friend... God of Chance.

That makes a nice soundbite, that is a meme by the way. Sure it is a "worldview", but what does that worldview constitute? oh yea "no gods", simple as. For all i care "MAGIC" as you say could of been involved, magic doesn't have to be just god right? You do know that magic is nonsense right?

Typical atheist cop-out.

Might as well bang your head against a wall then. Whats a cop-out about POINTING OUT THE FACT THAT IT IS SOMETHING ELSE and NOT athiesm that causes people to do things that are wrong, quite simply left to their own devices good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things. How hard is that to grasp? Cause and effect my love! Cause and effect.

Kristoffer wrote:It is so simple that even a child can do it, by my own standard obviously, How do you judge wether your god is a good god or not? Obviously by your standard. Note that since Yahweh is a bronze age god he cannot defeat iron chariots (source: bible)

Why should I consider your standard reliable or trustworthy? Murderers and rapists also have their moral standards, they obviously kill and rape people because that's fine in their opinion.

Kristoffer wrote:That makes a nice soundbite, that is a meme by the way. Sure it is a "worldview", but what does that worldview constitute? oh yea "no gods", simple as. For all i care "MAGIC" as you say could of been involved, magic doesn't have to be just god right? You do know that magic is nonsense right?

Atheism is required to explain how everything, including us, came to be by purely naturalistic means, and of course it fails miserably. I hope you've read about probabilities, abiogenesis, order and other things that stay in the way of atheism. It takes more faith not to believe in God, than to do so. In spite of the atheist oversimplification by saying "No gods, simple as that".

Kristoffer wrote:Might as well bang your head against a wall then. Whats a cop-out about POINTING OUT THE FACT THAT IT IS SOMETHING ELSE and NOT athiesm that causes people to do things that are wrong, quite simply left to their own devices good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things. How hard is that to grasp? Cause and effect my love! Cause and effect.

Atheist regimes killed tens of millions of people, which is an incomparably higher number than the sum of the people killed in the name of religion, during the entire human history. However, when atheist regimes kill people, you say that they don't do it in the name of atheism, because atheism is not an active belief system, but a lack of one whatsoever. You see, that's a cop-out.

When people are left to their own devices, power-hungry demagogues will seize power, turn the state into a religion, eliminate all the political opponents, cause wars and bloodshed... why? Exactly because they aren't accountable to anyone. Those are the consequences of lacking an objective moral standard - millions of dead people.

Now that you mentioned cause and effect, I'd be glad to see how you would explain the beginning of the Universe.

@ Kristoffer

Might as well bang your head against a wall then. Whats a cop-out about POINTING OUT THE FACT THAT IT IS SOMETHING ELSE and NOT athiesm that causes people to do things that are wrong, quite simply left to their own devices good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things. How hard is that to grasp? Cause and effect my love! Cause and effect.

I know how it sounds, atheists being blamed like this but the problem is, in a system, the good is not good unless it is defined. Atheists don't have any standard for good or bad the standard they have is left to each person to decide for himself. Since atheists do not have written set moral standard they say they have "rationale and logic" which any human being with a brain can have. In actuality what atheists do is that they conform to their immediate environment and what suits best to accommodate themselves to that immediate morality. They mix up in various cultures and then claim influence. Yet no new morality has ever been put forth by atheism. And also that atheism failed to produce any peace figures like Jesus, Gandhi, mother Teresa, Martin Luther king Jr.

However, I do get your point about being good. religion is never to be the government structure because it will then have to impose it's will which may not result in the best interests of a democratic society. Same is the problem with atheism, the only catch is atheism as a system will always impose and not in the best interest of all and in that it negates the common good. Let me explain, you see what is good, you and I know that from common sense, but atheism at its core - as a system or government system of any level always results in the idea that claims that the presence of religion is illegal and illogical therefore it should not be tolerated at any costs. Stalin and Mao are the primary examples. When atheism is forced it will always result in the loss of rights of a religious follower(no matter what religion they belong to) since it would restrict his practices (this is also a form of imposed will, imperialism, a bias, the very trait that atheists accuse religious governments for) and hence the only successful governments that sprout out of atheism are totalitarian in nature. You are right that all people war, religions war too, but religions have a standard through which they can be held accountable even if that standard is not applied on the system but on the individual self, atheist even lack that standard because they kill in the name of duty. To the atheist the greater good surpasses all causes and then it results in the killings of religious or non religious alike, dependent on the policy of the government. And to top that the two biggest atheist regimes, U.S.S.R and China butchered millions of people to achieve that greater good but here is my point those who did it were not held accountable even in their own selves. Their was no guilt to it, because they were not breaking their own moral standards, their own laws supported it.

I think you are just trying to tar the Ethics of MILLIONS of Good men and women who just don't happen to believe in your invisible friend. Athiesm is not a reason to start a war or even kill someone, do you even know what athiesm is?

To qualify for replying this, First I know what atheism is, been there, done that. Second, atheism is not the reason to start war but it produces all reasons to start one or a mass cleansing. This type of statements makes me laugh all the time, because in reality those few millions think that the rest of all the billions, all of them are wrong/delusional, to think only atheists got it right. This claim is very thin, buddy, only words. Haven't seen one atheist who could be an example to humanity, love, peace, an example you can teach your children to follow. And if there is one than there are better examples still. Anyways to me there is none, In fact atheism fails to inspire. I am not saying all atheists are bad people, but most of them are in a delusion, and I am not saying that because atheists do not believe in my "invisible Friend", I say this because they think atheism holds all the answers - which it doesn't

It is more of a counter essay to claims that religon starts all wars.

And yes kris, atheism does start wars and promote killing, ever hear of stalin?

Murdered MILLIONS of christians because he viewed them as a threat to his militant atheist government.

Kristoffer wrote:How do you know for certain that his Athiesm motivated what he did and why is it HIS fualt that the war happened anyway. Also were is the evidence for this base assertion. I think you are just trying to tar the Ethics of MILLIONS of Good men and women who just don't happen to believe in your invisible friend. Athiesm is not a reason to start a war or even kill someone, do you even know what athiesm is?

Rejecting a claim. How does that start a war? Maybe you ought to consider that people can be athiests or theists and have other ideologies that cause them to act and do things that they consider to be the right thing to do, athiesm doesn't make anyone do anything. Its a non-player charecter.

In short: he did it because of political reasons not because of his religion or lack thereof.

Does it occur to you that almost every athiest thinks the world world be a better place without religon? What does that lead to?
Stalin believed that quote and guess what he did, the mass extermination of the christians occured under stalin and millions of athiest who shared your view that religon is bad, stood by and helped stalin purge religon from his state.

Atheisim doesn't drive anyone to commit horrible acts of genocide, but it is interesting how many atheist leaders and regimes have dome just that.
Vox Day in his book "the irrational atheist" actually lists the regimes run by atheists with an "atheistic manifesto to purge religion from their countries" and how many people were killed under those regimes.
Their OWN people.
Lets not forget that Stalin's regime wiped out over 250K priests for no other reason than that they were just that, priests.

Of course atheism does NOT tell people to commit horrific acts and most atheists are well grounded moral people ( even if their morals are borrowed from, typically, Christian moral teachings).
Of course Christianity does NOT tell people to do anything other than LOVE neighbours AND enemies alike so, based on that, Christianity can't, like atheisim, be blamed for what its practioners do outside of what it teaches.

PaulSacramento wrote:Of course atheism does NOT tell people to commit horrific acts and most atheists are well grounded moral people ( even if their morals are borrowed from, typically, Christian moral teachings).Of course Christianity does NOT tell people to do anything other than LOVE neighbours AND enemies alike so, based on that, Christianity can't, like atheisim, be blamed for what its practioners do outside of what it teaches.

True! A philosophy cannot be held responsible for the abuse carried out in its name. Abominable acts spring from something far deeper: human nature.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

True! A philosophy cannot be held responsible for the abuse carried out in its name. Abominable acts spring from something far deeper: human nature.

FL

Text can be interpreted in a certain way if it is not specific enough perhaps.....

But again, atheist love to say "Christianity causes wars" and they kind of just ignore that atheists have caused more damage than a christian ever did. So yes I agree that atheism itself does not incline somebody to kill, but the way they choose to further their ideology can as there is no strict moral laws for an atheist since we are all a walking pile of chemical accident

If you understand Christianity you cannot justify terrible acts, maybe other ideologies are different...

Kris, you're not being very realistic unfortunately. Under atheist regimes and dictators the largest amount of suffering, injustice and murder has occurred, this is very easy information to obtain. Atheists will try to justify what these cruel men did by saying something along the lines of "well, they were just bad men but atheism didn't cause it". This is a fallacy, and not to mention hypocritical, because the same thing can be said about Christian leaders who have committed atrocities *in the name* of Christianity, and they're only too quick to point it out.

Murray is 100% right -- and someone may say "this is a no true Scotsman " approach, but it doesn't make it any less valid. A true Christian will not commit these crimes nor will they support them. In fact, they are the ones who know that Jesus will reject any who did evil in his name, as the Bible also said (which you conveniently ignore).

How unfortunate is it for you and other atheists to know that these people who do horrible things may never, ever receive justice. It must be terrible to believe you're a slave to your own biological processes.

I'll take my chances with free will and an invisible friend any day over that nonsense.


PS: I find it funny that the atheist who invented the no true Scotsman fallacy eventually became a deist...

Ryanm wrote:On June 28th 1914, archduke Franz Ferdinand of the Austrian Hungarian empire was assassinated by Gavrilo Princep, an event that would cause the rise of atheism, decline of moral, and the rise of dictators. The little known fact is that Gavrilo Princep was a devout atheist, and one of the motives (besides nationalism) for assassination the archduke was that the archduke was trying to further implement Christian doctrine in the country and its newly acquired territories at this time. This infuriated Gavrilo, and on that fateful day, he changed the world forever. The assignation caused the spark on the fuse, and the heavy alliance system in Europe finally was tested, and the result was disastrous. World War I would eventually account for the deaths of over 40 million people, and the direct effects of the war would carry a far greater toll. World war one would completely destroy the Russian empires strength and would open the door for some previously unknown revolutionaries, and would introduce the world to a new form of government, communism. With the door open, Lenin would establish the USSR and would eventually lead to Stalin taking power, another wonderful atheist (another fun fact: Stalin murder/genocide toll is estimated to be at least twice as large as the holocaust). However Russia was not the only country affected by world war I, Germany had it worst. After the war Germany was blamed with sole responsibility for the war, causing mass economic depression in the already demoralized country. The allies also a established a extremely weak German government known as the Weimar republic. During this time a decorated German copal named Adolph Hitler would establish a new political party, one that would promise to restore Germany to her once elite status, and as a empire. Hitler would of course go on to commit genocide on the Jewish, homosexual, and catholic population of Europe, along with starting the second world war. World war I also contributed to the growth and industrialization of small island country off the coast of Asia, Japan. After world war I Japan was granted all of Germanys pacific island imperial claims; these islands contained vast amounts of resources which would further feed japans industrialization and militarization. With these new resources Japan grew and grew economically and industrially, but Japan would need more resources to fuel its industrial need, so in 1931 Japan invaded Manchuria. They would go on to brutalize and to an extend commit genocide on the Manchurian people. This act rightfully outraged Americans and caused FDR to create an embargo on Japan; this would lead to Pearl Harbor and the united states entrance into WWII. World war II would cause mass unrest in Europe, Asia, Africa, and the middle east after the war. The reason for this being after the war most all European countries (except Belgium) would remove their colonial governments, or in the case of France try to regain them (thus the Vietnam War).

So if you wish to add up the death toll of WWI, WWII, The winter war, The Japanese invasion and occupation of Manchuria, the holocaust, the murderous reign of Stalin, the Chinese revolution, the Korean war, the Vietnam war, and pearl harbor, its in the 400 million dead range, thus all caused by an atheist and putting to rest the silly little fairy tale of “religion starting all wars”.

Hitler was a so called Christian