Prayer Requests vs. Providence and Predestination

[Seraph]

Here's something I've thought about as of late. Prayer is a great way we have of communicating with God and giving thanks. But lately I've wondered what the significance and impact is of asking God for results in our prayers. The Bible teaches that God gives us what we ask, yet at the same time teaches that God is completely sovereign and has a perfect divine plan. If God has a plan for the world and our lives that is based on his infinite knowledge and wisdom, wouldn't it be silly for God to grant us our request when we ask Him to alter it in some way? I was also wondering how this would fit in with idea of predestination.

[jlay]

Well, that really depends on how you define predestination.

FWIW, I reject the determined view of predestination. Long thread on that not long ago.

Yes Jesus tells His disciples to to ask. The bible also warns about asking with the wrong motives.
"The prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Prayer is more than just a line of communication. It is a process of comforming our wills to that of the Father, and participating is seeing His will accomplished in our lives, and in the world.

The bible has much to say about prayer. We need to look at the whole counsel of God in regards to what is taught about prayer. Also, I think it is a fair to ask is whether everything said in the bible about prayer is specifically said to and applies to us. That being the gentile believer of today.

The Bible teaches that God gives us what we ask

Does it? Who is we?
1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
This doesn't say he gives us what we ask. In fact, it only says, He hears, and He hears only if asked, 'according to his will.' And that doesn't even address the 'we.'

John 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.Hear, a very obvious condition is being placed on prayer.

James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.Here James explains that prayer is not just a blank check from God.

Matt 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. So, what is the 'it' that will be given if asked for?

Matt. 21:22 "And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
OK, that should be simple enough. But keep in mind the context that this prayer power was not given corporately, but privately to the twelve.

[Seraph]

That's largely what I've read to, though isn't asking that something be done according to God's will a lot like praying that God will do what He is already going to do? It seems like there isn't much use in making requests in your prayers then, since if it isn't according to His will, the answer will be "no". And if it is according to His will, it would've been carried out whether you asked for it or not.

[jlay]

That's largely what I've read to, though isn't asking that something be done according to God's will a lot like praying that God will do what He is already going to do?

Well a big part of prayer is having our minds renewed and transformed. If you consider having your mind transformed to know the will of God of no use, then I suppose so.

But there is an element of mystery in prayer. We can't possibly comprehned all the mystery of God's soveriegnty and how He is working all things together for the good of those that love Him. Let me give you an example. Do you think there could be more than one outcome to a situation that would be within the will and plans of God? Often we assume things are black and white. And much is. But you might hear someone say, "it was God's will that Bob died." Maybe it was. Maybe prayer would have made no difference. But, could reality be much deeper than our limited comprehension. Could there be an outcome that is accessed through prayer that is equally within the will of God?
I know personally I can recount many forks in the road where, looking back, I felt like I missed out on something that God was doing. Does my failure thwart God's soveriegnty? No. Does that mean that my lack of repsone, failure, or sin was really not my own. But that it was inscribed upon me as the soveriegn will of God? Or was I free to choose that path? If you have a determined view of God's soverignty, then yes, it is futile. It is preprogrammed. Everything that happens is the only way it was to happen. There is no more purpose of prayer than there is in trying to win someone to Christ. Determined soveriegnty attempts to exhalt God. But, IMO, it does just the opposite. It contrains Him to fit a systematic theology. Now obviously, we can't actually constrain God, except in our perceptions and definitions. God is who He is. And maybe God is even bigger than we want to admit or define.

Persistence in prayer is encouraged by Christ Himself. He constantly went to prayer throughout His earthly minsitry. I think if we really understood prayer, then we'd do a lot more of it.

[Seraph]

Huh. Thats definately something to think about. That would definately answer a lot of questions I have if true.

Though I have a hard time imagining that God's will isn't deterministic. He has knowledge of everything that will happen in every situation, so I imagine that He has a clear view of what needs to take place in every situation to have the best overall outcome according to His will.

[PaulSacramento]

I think that God knows what will happen based on his position outside of time, He sees all possible outcomes to all possible events and decisions.
He knows all because all is available to him, but does God know what we will do before we do it?
Perhaps, He certainly knows us better than we know ourselves.
It is still our free will to do it.
BUT I also believe that God does indeed predestine some for certain things and gives them those gifts accordingly.
As for prayers, since we do we know what we need?
Want yes, oh yes, we know that, but need?
It is God's "right" to answer one prayer and "not" answer another, just like any Father or parent has the right to say yes to one child and no to another.

[Canuckster1127]

Phillipians 2:5-11 speaks of Christ "emptying" himself of many of the rights and priviledges that he possessed because He was God. Yet he never ceased to be God. The primary thrust of this relates to the incarnation and Christ's identification with Humanity as the second Adam (which is spelled out more clearly in Romans).

It does however present a principle that some see at play in terms of God's interaction with man in other contexts. God as deterministic (predestinating) all things down to the minutest detail is not at its heart a Hebrew or Christian rooted view. It comes from Greek Philosophy. Hebraic worldview had no difficulty with presenting God as someone whom prayer or appeal could persuade to change a course of action. It's a common scenarion throughout the Old Testament and God changes His mind so to speak many times.

Why this is so is open to debate and people tend to adopt one particular view to the exclusion of others. Calvinists for example take predestination and control to the extreme in theory of nothing random being possible. Not all Calvinists do this of course, I'm speaking very broadly. In theory even those Calvinists who accept limited free will reach points of philosophical difficulty separating what is by determination and what is by allowance.

Absolute Free Will proponents face similar issues that express themselves differently. The more extreme expressions of it come in things like Open Theism which see God either by Nature or by Divine Choice as limited in power and knowledge which means that God is experiencing time in a similar context to man and can even be "surprised" by the choices men make.

I no longer profess to have these issues solved. I think there is strong Biblical evidence for both propositions and the challenge is not to take one over the other and in so doing to try to explain away the other elements. There's an element of mystery that ultimately resolves within the person of God Himself which is beyond our full understanding. There's a level of cognative dissonance that must be allowed for in the meantime unless we wish to limit God to our ability to comprehend Him.

[jlay]

Though I have a hard time imagining that God's will isn't deterministic. He has knowledge of everything that will happen in every situation, so I imagine that He has a clear view of what needs to take place in every situation to have the best overall outcome according to His will.

Don't misunderstand. I didn't say God's will was undetermined. I was speaking of the determined view of God's soveriegnty in reformed theology. God's will is most certainly set., or determined if you will. However the question I asked was, are there potential outcomes to a situation that are different, yet still comply with the will of God.

maybe not a great analogy. Say there is a young man who is trying to decide what career path to take. On one hand he can go to college, chose a career, start a family, etc. Or, he can enter the mission field, by-passing higher education all together. So, he has a choice to pray about this or not. Is one choice necessarily opposed to the will of God? Could either choice fit within the soverign will of God? Perhaps he neglects to pray, and goes on to to 1st choice. But had he surrendered himself to prayer, God would have revealed to him his calling into the mission field. Thus within the soveriegn will of God, this man's prayers did matter. Like I said, not a perfect analogy, but something to think about.