SALVATION ISSUE

[FearlessLlearsy]

So, this one is an important one. In logic class the other day, my teacher said once you pray the sinner's prayer and accept Jesus Christ, you have Salvation no matter what you do???? What she is saying does not sound to Biblical for me, and i have my reasons, but i would like to know what you guys think.

I honestly wished it was that easy: give your life to Jesus, no change of heart and life, continue living a sinful lifestyle and still go to Heaven

[Reactionary]

I honestly wished it was that easy: give your life to Jesus, no change of heart and life, continue living a sinful lifestyle and still go to Heaven

Logically, if you live a sinful lifestyle then you didn't give your life to Jesus. Being a true Christian means, among other things, to obey the moral laws which Jesus himself often mentioned and held in a high regard. You can't have one foot in Hell and the other one in Heaven, besides those laws exist for a reason. As for the sins, God will forgive if you honestly repent, but if you live a philosophy "I'll sin now and repent later", that's obviously wrong and disrespectful.

[FearlessLlearsy]

Good way of putting it.

[Canuckster1127]

Salvation is by grace through faith. When we accept Christ as Savior we are instantly spiritually brought from death into life and the Holy Spirit enters and resides with us. Positionally we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ and every sin we have ever committed or ever will commit has been cared for in the finished work of Christ.

This is commonly known as justification and positional. Practically the process of sanctification then is in effect for the rest of our lives. We are not sinless in terms of our lives. The normal Christian life however, because we belong to Christ and have the Holy Spirit within us and love God, is one where the internal reality will evidence through a changed heart, a changing mind and evidence through the fruit of our lives. This fruit and evidence is not at all the basis of our salvation. It's the smoke that comes from the fire of what is at work within us.

Christians can and do sin. Some grieviously at times.

The Church at Corinth was an early body where there were several who were involved in grevious sin. Paul says to them that he can't speak to them as spiritual believers but rather as carnal I Cor 3:1-15

He goes on to catalog some of the things going on in their midst:

There are factions where some claim to be following and aligned to different teachers as opposed to others. They are fighting and seeking to gain high positions to lord it over others.

Paul speaks about this and he doesn't say that they are not saved. He says there is a day coming however when believers are going to be judged and their works and motives examined. Paul calls this a test by fire. I Cor 3:13-15 At that time those things in their lives that are spirit based, with motives that are pure will stand the test and remain. Those things that do not, that are wood, hay and stubble will not. Those whose works are burned up are still saved but they're saved as it were by the skin of their teeth and they'll come out intact but with the smell of smoke.

So salvation is not by works. Not our works anyway. The only one who as a man has lived in perfect accord with the law is Jesus Christ. We're clothed in His righteousness. That is all by grace.

The sinners prayer is actually a relatively new, in terms of the history of the church, means or method of leading people to Christ. Saying words carries no power in and of themselves if those words are not motivated by sincere belief and desire. People who say a prayer but over time there's no evidence of change in their lives, are those whom I believe are being spoke of in Phil 2:12 when Paul advises his friends to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. He's not telling them that their efforts are going to save them. He's telling them that it's a serious enough matter that they should be examining their hearts and making sure that the Holy Spirit is present in their lives. In the end, it's God within us that is the evidence of our salvation. Only God and we can know the state of our hearts, lives and motives.

To the extent that the sinners prayer is used today as a formula and people put their faith in the fact that they've said words or walked an aisle and there's nothing else there, that whole system is bankrupt. People certainly can be saved in that manner and I don't doubt that many are. It's a disservice however to many to think that salvation is just a matter of saying the magic words. Salvation includes repentance, and with the coming of the Holy Spirit there is regeneration where our Spirit comes to life. It's normal then for us to love and want to please God. It's possible that Christians can be carnal, as described in I Cor 3. So in the end, it's God who will judge who is in Christ and who is not and the basis will not be our works, it will be the acceptance of Christ's finished work.

[jlay]

So, this one is an important one. In logic class the other day, my teacher said once you pray the sinner's prayer and accept Jesus Christ, you have Salvation no matter what you do???? What she is saying does not sound to Biblical for me, and i have my reasons, but i would like to know what you guys think.

I honestly wished it was that easy: give your life to Jesus, no change of heart and life, continue living a sinful lifestyle and still go to Heaven

Logic class? How did this come to be discussed in logic class?
1st- There is no biblical basis for praying the sinner's prayer as a means to salvation. So, if she in fact stated this, then she isn't sounding biblical to me either. Nor does it say to 'accept' Christ. Accept is a weak word and fails to convey saving faith. "you might as well accept the fact that......" It doesn't elicit trust. Only a reluctant belief.
Salvation is through trusting in Christ. His words and His work. Personally. John 5:24

Why Jesus?
If we do not know that we need rescue, then why would we call upon a Savior?
If we do not see our separation from God, then why would we seek to be reconciled?
If we do not see ourselves as captives of sin, why would we trust a redeemer?
If we do not see ourselves as unholy, then why would we see need of a sanctifier?

In terms of change of Heart. That is a tricky question. Obviously if you read what I wrote above, a person can't come to Christ without a change of mind on these matters. But does that change one's heart in the sense you are referring to? Is a change of heart and life a requirement of salvation? As much as I have tried to say a person needs to change, I've realized that this position says, you need to clean up your life, stop sinning, and then you'll be good enough. What + Jesus = enough. Is Jesus enough? And how much of a life change are we talking about? Funny how when we try to hold to the life change position that we usually point towards people who haven't changed as much as we have. And then when we see people who are exhibiting more change, we start to doubt whether we've done enough to remain saved.
If salvation requires reformation on your part, then no matter how you want to paint it, that salvation is based on your works. Period. There is simply no way to word it and have it be otherwise.

This is also the false belief that heaven is the end game. Not reconciliation. Not redemption. Not glory. But, how do I keep my skin from being singed.

Salvation is easier than we want to make it. And salvation is harder than we want to make it.
I admit that I cringe a little when I hear people say, "if you are saved you can still go on sinning and go to heaven." I think it is a odd way to present the gospel. But, the reality is there is truth within. The gospel is radical. We couldn't save ourselves. So, the question becomes, can we undo what we didn't do in the first place? It's a controversial question, and there are many views. I believe in eternal security. Or, once saved always saved. But the use of OSAS doesn't represent the same meaning to all who hold that position. I like to emphasize right belief or right faith. In other words, you can't lose what you never had in the 1st place. Right faith is not just giving the gospel lip service because you got scared at a fire and brimstone preaching. Or, you just want to cover your bases. That is why I disagree with the sinner's prayer so much.

When I became a believer I couldn't give you a theological exposition on redemption, salvation, atonement, sanctification or reconciliation. But in my heart I knew I was in desperate need, and that I needed Christ as my savior. There was a clarity of need that was beyond just intellectual ascent. My thoughts certainly weren't, "Wow, I can just believe in this Jesus and then do whatever I want."
In the end only God can communicate to the heart its great need. So, a person doesn't need to be able to give a text book answer on these terms. But the essence of the truth should still be a reality. And this can happen for those with even the most elementary understanding. On the other hand, a person can have a grasp on all the terminology and yet have never come to a place of identifying the life, death and resurrection of Christ with their own life.

let me clarify. Sinning is wrong. And sinning destroys our fellowship with God. But I reject totally the propsition by reactionary. I would challenge anyone with this position to dare to measure themselves by the same standard they judge by. People have sinful lifestyles because they are sinners. Obeying moral laws is a noble thing, but it will no more save you, than following the teachings of the Koran. If it could then Jesus wouldn't even have had to come and die. The word repent is often misused. Reactionary, I'm curious how are you using the word? Define it for us please.

[Reactionary]

let me clarify. Sinning is wrong. And sinning destroys our fellowship with God. But I reject totally the propsition by reactionary. I would challenge anyone with this position to dare to measure themselves by the same standard they judge by. People have sinful lifestyles because they are sinners. Obeying moral laws is a noble thing, but it will no more save you, than following the teachings of the Koran. If it could then Jesus wouldn't even have had to come and die. The word repent is often misused. Reactionary, I'm curious how are you using the word? Define it for us please.

By "living a sinful lifestyle" I meant living while deliberately ignoring the moral law, i.e. knowing that what you're doing is wrong and yet continuing to do it. I am aware, of course, that we're all sinners so we're not in the best position to judge, but I don't see anything negative in pointing out what's right or wrong. Yes, I also qualify under "sinner", however I try my best to live Christianity and avoid sinning as much as possible. How efficient am I in doing so, I'm probably not the most objective person to answer that, but I learn the lessons and I believe that I'm growing into a better person over time. Being a good person by itself can't save me, as you said, but I believe it plays an important role nevertheless. That's much different than, for instance, people who claim to be devout Christians, yet their lifestyles don't reflect their words at all - as I've witnessed too often, unfortunately. I think we'll agree on that. Jesus spoke about moral a lot, and I believe that following the moral law is one way of recognizing His word.

As for "repentance" - I see it as realizing that what you did (or you still do) is wrong, firmly deciding to give it up, and holding to your decision. In other words, renouncing your sinful past. However, many times we will list all our sins at a Confession, and yet continue sinning. It's a part of our nature, but there are some instances where we can put a stop to something we shouldn't practice. I used to do such things in the past, but I "repented" and, since then, I haven't done them again. Our definition of "repentance" may however differ because I don't use that word in my native language, plus because of seemingly different doctrines of our Churches.

[FearlessLlearsy]

Jlay, what i meant is that: A person tells me he is saved. However, his life is still the same prior to his repentence to Christ. No change. Does not the Bible mention of us being a new creation when we accept Jesus Christ? Also, in Matthew, when his disciples (i think) asked him: Jesus, how will you differentiate a good tree from a bad one. Jesus answered them: By its fruit.
No doubts we are and will always remain sinners. But dont you think when we have Jesus Christ in our hearts, the fruits of the Spirit naturally flows and exhibits themselves in our lives?
So, is it possible that the person in the first place had never truly accepted Christ?

[B. W.]

Hmmm, always hear many people say that the sinner's prayer is not scriptual, etc and etc...

Luke 18:10, 11, 12, 13, 14, "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

Luke 18:13, 14, "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

What was Jesus saying then - which of the two prayed a true sinner's prayer?
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[Canuckster1127]

The sinner's prayer involves more than what is in that parable. I don't say the sinner's prayer isn't valid. The idea that the sinner's prayer is the primary means to salvation, when looked at in the context of all of Church History is a bit of a stretch.

[mandelduke]

So, this one is an important one. In logic class the other day, my teacher said once you pray the sinner's prayer and accept Jesus Christ, you have Salvation no matter what you do???? What she is saying does not sound to Biblical for me, and i have my reasons, but i would like to know what you guys think.

I honestly wished it was that easy: give your life to Jesus, no change of heart and life, continue living a sinful lifestyle and still go to Heaven

Sounds like you have a smart teacher. Salvation is a gift from God, free to us because Jesus paid the price. You can not buy it, and what could you offer God to keep it? Mans righteousness is like a dirty menstrual rag to God. Think of the Passover, the only think that saved the Hebrew 1st born was the blood. And the only thing that saves us is the blood!

[FearlessLlearsy]

Jlay, what i meant is that: A person tells me he is saved. However, his life is still the same prior to his repentence to Christ. No change. Does not the Bible mention of us being a new creation when we accept Jesus Christ? Also, in Matthew, when his disciples (i think) asked him: Jesus, how will you differentiate a good tree from a bad one. Jesus answered them: By its fruit.
No doubts we are and will always remain sinners. But dont you think when we have Jesus Christ in our hearts, the fruits of the Spirit naturally flows and exhibits themselves in our lives?
So, is it possible that the person in the first place had never truly accepted Christ?

What do you think Mandelduke about this?

[jlay]

Jlay, what i meant is that: A person tells me he is saved. However, his life is still the same prior to his repentence to Christ. No change. Does not the Bible mention of us being a new creation when we accept Jesus Christ? Also, in Matthew, when his disciples (i think) asked him: Jesus, how will you differentiate a good tree from a bad one. Jesus answered them: By its fruit.

I understand. The bible does speak to this. In fact James' letter is all about the outward evidence. This is how men judge. Yes, the bible mentions us being a new creation. But let us examime. Paul says that old things have passed away, behold all things have become new. Does the believer immediately inherit a new sinless physical nature when they believe? Does the pull of the flesh suddenly dissapear?
No. The believer inherits a new sinless spiritual standing. And they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. The seal represents the hope of what is yet to come. That is the new body.

In regards to fruit, I would be very careful how you apply certain sciptural truths. Everything our Lord said is the truth. But that doesn't mean that this is the gospel of our salvation. Jesus taught on many things. Many of which related to Israel. Remember that Jesus also condemned people who supposedly had fruit. (Matt. 7:22) Have you cast out devils? I haven't. So, if we are going to use outward proofs as our measure, then we have to be consistent in our hermanuetic. As a modern example, how many times have you heard about someone in the faith that you admired, that was living a secret life of sin?

I am not saying a believer won't have new desires. But can you measure salvation by what you perceive on the outside? You can obviously judge that the fruit is not in keeping with the profession.

But dont you think when we have Jesus Christ in our hearts, the fruits of the Spirit naturally flows and exhibits themselves in our lives?

I believe there is a way for the spirit to naturally flow. But not by the method you suggest. If the fruit naturally flowed, then why would we be warned about grieving the spirit? Why would you have to strive to follow the moral law, if it were natural? And why would we be instructed on how to live, and how not to live? If it is a natural flow, then why the need? (Eph. 4,5 & 6)
In Christ, we have access to be sourced by the Holy Spirit. In other words, everything is available to the believer for Holy living. As we yield to the spirit, then the natural byproduct of yielding is fruit. There is the flow. This is important because there are a lot of people who are striving under their own resource to produce fruit, but it isn't genuine.
Sadly, we also have access to the old nature. The dead man. We can still return to being lead around by the desires of the flesh. Should we? No. Do we? Yes. In fact many strong believers stumble into to terrible sins because of this.

By "living a sinful lifestyle" I meant living while deliberately ignoring the moral law, i.e. knowing that what you're doing is wrong and yet continuing to do it.

How does one sin without ignoring the moral law? What is your scriptural support here? Are you saying as a believer that you've never done this? That you've never done something wrong, knowing it is wrong? That is quite a claim. Have you done this in your thought life, your diet, your finances, etc? Are you saying that only certain sins are wrong for the believer? The bible says that sin is transgression of the law. It also says that failing to do good is also sin.
I know a lot of missionaries who don't think hardly anyone in the church of the USA shows much fruit at all. In fact they think there is a lot of show. People going through religious exercises, but not actually living spirit led lives. Do you ever wonder how some of those people would view you? I do. One of my friends just sold out, and moved his whole family to Bolivia to serve with orphanages there. Does that make him more saved than you or I?

Like I said, when we make these kind of claims, what we are really saying is that our sin is not as bad as someone elses. It is easy to examine someone who is blatantly in sin. But I doubt anyone is really willing to apply this standard consistently to themselves. If so, I would dare say that there is no assurance of salvation. You could be saved one minute, lost the next.

Jesus spoke about moral a lot, and I believe that following the moral law is one way of recognizing His word.

That really isn't the question. The question is: Is following the moral law the real way to salvation. That says, Trust in Jesus + follow the moral law = salvation. That still says that there is an outside standard (The Law) that you have to live up to. Saying, 'follow the moral law' sounds great. It sounds noble. But if it were the way, then Christ died in vain. Now many hear this and think, "you are saying we shouldn't be moral." No, not at all. It is by faith in Christ that we are saved. And it is also by faith that we please God. The only true way to be holy is through faith in Christ. If a believer is in sin, then they are essentially denying what God has said about them and what they have access to.
On the flip side, there are a lot of people who attempt to live moral lives. On the outside they may be clothed in what appears more suited for heaven. But all of their morality is generated from self. It has no redeeming quality. It is filthy rags.

I assure you that we will see much more moral living (fruit) when people surrender to the idea of Christ completely. That he really did pay it all. When we can rest in that assurance, I believe that we will see more fruit than we've ever seen.

[FearlessLlearsy]

I am not arguing that our works is the only measure of our salvation.
I am not arguing that living in sin automatically cancels our salvation.

This is how men judge. Yes, the bible mentions us being a new creation. But let us examime. Paul says that old things have passed away, behold all things have become new. Does the believer immediately inherit a new sinless physical nature when they believe? Does the pull of the flesh suddenly dissapear?
No. The believer inherits a new sinless spiritual standing. And they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Define seal in the Holy Spirit.

However, i will argue that Faith without Works is dead. For all i know, works and faith is a mere measurement that we have to know wether or not a person is saved. That is why it is tricky to say once saved, forever saved. In the first, do we really know if that person allowed Jesus to be Savior and Lord in his life? Certainly, the person may say the words, but are those words sincere? Do they carry weight in his life? Jesus clearly shows us the 3 steps of being a true Christian.
1.Deny yourself.
2.Pick up your cross.
3.Follow Him
So, is it really enough to say "Jesus, I accept you Lord" and not follow Him?
Once again, as i said in another post, only God truly knows the heart.

Matthew 25: 31-40 says:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


Works without faith is nothing, but so is faith without works.

[jlay]

However, i will argue that Faith without Works is dead.

Of course faith without works is dead. But that isn't the issue. it would appear to me that you are saying that this means that the person loses their salvation.

So, is it really enough to say "Jesus, I accept you Lord" and not follow Him?

I already addressed the word 'accept' in another post. What is enough, is to come to a right faith in the work and message of Jesus Christ.

Jesus clearly shows us the 3 steps of being a true Christian.
1.Deny yourself.
2.Pick up your cross.
3.Follow Him
So, is it really enough to say "Jesus, I accept you Lord" and not follow Him?
Once again, as i said in another post, only God truly knows the heart.

Where does Jesus say this is the 3 steps of being a true Christian? Do you meaure your own "Christianity" by this standard? I would challange you to prove to us here that you have denied yourself in all things, picked up your cross (and explain this concept) and followed Him faithfully in every area of your life. Was Jesus confused when he said John 5:24 and John 3:16?

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

i don't really have the time to go into an entire discourse on dispensational theology, but to sum it up. Depending on how one reads the bible there will either be agreement or contradiction. Under one method verses such as John 3:16, romans 2:8-9 and others will contradict with Jesus' teaching in Matt 24-25. Period. People don't want to admit it, but it does. So, one has to ask, is the bible reliable, or am i dividing the scripture in the correct manner? In other words, are you correctly applying what you are reading. Obviously the context of Matt 25 means everything. Do we understand such things as the 2nd advent, tribulation, inheriting the Kingdom, and more. This is no easy task. But ultimately one has to ask, is this teaching in Matt the gospel of our salvation? Or is something else being taught? If you believe it is the gospel, then I simply ask, are you saved? Have you visited the prisons, hospitals, etc. And if so, how many times do we need to do this to be saved. once? Twice? Everyday?

Define seal in the Holy Spirit.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14

2 Corinthians 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

[PaulSacramento]

The moment we do something for any reason other than love with no notion of recompense, we are doing something with an ulterior motive.
Even more so in regards to salvation.
The parable of the sheep and goats is not JUST about the deeds that Jesus viewed as righteous but also about HOW they were done:
With no notion of recompense and by people who didn't even know who they were acting righteous towards.
People are fallen and broken, believing that we can do it "ourselves', that if we do this and that, that we will be viewed as Good and just and even be saved, BUT the very notion of doing something FOR something is what makes us fallen.
Grace is given to all, so that no man my boast.
We do good works because we ARE saved, NOT to be saved and those good works are done WITH God, not FOR God so that we have leverage or a bargaining tool.
Only with the HS in us, sealed by it, can we truly do good for "goodness sake", with no thought of recompense and no pride in what we do.
We are saved because we believe in Jesus Christ and His grace comes upon as and the good works flow from this and His Love, good works of love with NO NOTION of recompense or acknoledgement by anyone.