Jlay, what i meant is that: A person tells me he is saved. However, his life is still the same prior to his repentence to Christ. No change. Does not the Bible mention of us being a new creation when we accept Jesus Christ? Also, in Matthew, when his disciples (i think) asked him: Jesus, how will you differentiate a good tree from a bad one. Jesus answered them: By its fruit.
I understand. The bible does speak to this. In fact James' letter is all about the outward evidence. This is how men judge. Yes, the bible mentions us being a new creation. But let us examime. Paul says that old things have passed away, behold all things have become new. Does the believer immediately inherit a new sinless physical nature when they believe? Does the pull of the flesh suddenly dissapear?
No. The believer inherits a new sinless spiritual standing. And they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. The seal represents the hope of what is yet to come. That is the new body.
In regards to fruit, I would be very careful how you apply certain sciptural truths. Everything our Lord said is the truth. But that doesn't mean that this is the gospel of
our salvation. Jesus taught on many things. Many of which related to Israel. Remember that Jesus also condemned people who supposedly had fruit. (Matt. 7:22) Have you cast out devils? I haven't. So, if we are going to use outward proofs as our measure, then we have to be consistent in our hermanuetic. As a modern example, how many times have you heard about someone in the faith that you admired, that was living a secret life of sin?
I am not saying a believer won't have new desires. But can you measure salvation by what you perceive on the outside? You can obviously judge that the fruit is not in keeping with the profession.
But dont you think when we have Jesus Christ in our hearts, the fruits of the Spirit naturally flows and exhibits themselves in our lives?
I believe there is a way for the spirit to naturally flow. But not by the method you suggest. If the fruit naturally flowed, then why would we be warned about grieving the spirit? Why would you have to strive to follow the moral law, if it were natural? And why would we be instructed on how to live, and how not to live? If it is a natural flow, then why the need? (Eph. 4,5 & 6)
In Christ, we have access to be sourced by the Holy Spirit. In other words, everything is available to the believer for Holy living. As we yield to the spirit, then the natural byproduct of yielding is fruit. There is the flow. This is important because there are a lot of people who are striving under their own resource to produce fruit, but it isn't genuine.
Sadly, we also have access to the old nature. The dead man. We can still return to being lead around by the desires of the flesh. Should we? No. Do we? Yes. In fact many strong believers stumble into to terrible sins because of this.
By "living a sinful lifestyle" I meant living while deliberately ignoring the moral law, i.e. knowing that what you're doing is wrong and yet continuing to do it.
How does one sin without ignoring the moral law? What is your scriptural support here? Are you saying as a believer that you've never done this? That you've never done something wrong, knowing it is wrong? That is quite a claim. Have you done this in your thought life, your diet, your finances, etc? Are you saying that only certain sins are wrong for the believer? The bible says that sin is transgression of the law. It also says that failing to do good is also sin.
I know a lot of missionaries who don't think hardly anyone in the church of the USA shows much fruit at all. In fact they think there is a lot of show. People going through religious exercises, but not actually living spirit led lives. Do you ever wonder how some of those people would view you? I do. One of my friends just sold out, and moved his whole family to Bolivia to serve with orphanages there. Does that make him more saved than you or I?
Like I said, when we make these kind of claims, what we are really saying is that our sin is not as bad as someone elses. It is easy to examine someone who is blatantly in sin. But I doubt anyone is really willing to apply this standard consistently to themselves. If so, I would dare say that there is no assurance of salvation. You could be saved one minute, lost the next.
Jesus spoke about moral a lot, and I believe that following the moral law is one way of recognizing His word.
That really isn't the question. The question is: Is following the moral law the real way to salvation. That says, Trust in Jesus + follow the moral law = salvation. That still says that there is an outside standard (The Law) that you have to live up to. Saying, 'follow the moral law' sounds great. It sounds noble. But if it were the way, then Christ died in vain. Now many hear this and think, "you are saying we shouldn't be moral." No, not at all. It is by faith in Christ that we are saved. And it is also by faith that we please God. The only true way to be holy is through faith in Christ. If a believer is in sin, then they are essentially denying what God has said about them and what they have access to.
On the flip side, there are a lot of people who attempt to live moral lives. On the outside they may be clothed in what appears more suited for heaven. But all of their morality is generated from self. It has no redeeming quality. It is filthy rags.
I assure you that we will see much more moral living (fruit) when people surrender to the idea of Christ completely. That he really did pay it all. When we can rest in that assurance, I believe that we will see more fruit than we've ever seen.
