Question of the Day

[FearlessLlearsy]

So, the other day, while conversing with out history teacher, he stated that:

"Each man has his price"
A kid asked him, "does that mean that if i gave you enough money to give me an A in the class, you would do it?"
He answered "if its a GREAT price YES, i would"

Then I asked him "How much do i need to pay you for you to cheat on your wife?"

Anyways, do you guys think what he said is TRUE?

[neo-x]

His statement implies an objective approach to human nature, which is at fault in reality since the word "every man" can never be tested nor documented. it can only be observed when an opportunity arises. A man like Gandhi could never have been bought, so for biblical history, Paul. There are countless examples in history to refute his claim. However if the price is not money specifically then by all means every man would have a preference and if his preference is given or provided, it can be bargained against - but it will never be objective, not everyone will do it and it may not be always bargained on free will. I will explain, the giving of preference as a bargaining chip only makes the chances likely not certain. e.g you can never give me enough money to cheat on my girl, that I can never do, given the opportunity or not. But you can make me give you all my possessions if you had a gun to her head. Since in this case my preference is her life which I value above mine. But let us say if the government of my country decides to kill all Christians unless they convert or some extreme Taliban terrorist put a gun to my head or hers and say refute Christ, deny him and you may live, I'd rather have them shoot us. See, preference can not be objective and money can never be the universal bargaining chip.

[Canuckster1127]

So, the other day, while conversing with out history teacher, he stated that:

"Each man has his price"
A kid asked him, "does that mean that if i gave you enough money to give me an A in the class, you would do it?"
He answered "if its a GREAT price YES, i would"

Then I asked him "How much do i need to pay you for you to cheat on your wife?"

Anyways, do you guys think what he said is TRUE?

There's an old joke that applies here.

A man goes up to a woman and asks, "Would you be willing to sleep with me for a million dollars?" and the woman looks at him, agonizes for a few moments and then quietly says, "Yes, I'm embarrased to say it, but yes, I would."

So the man looks at her and says, "Well, how about for $100?"

The woman looks at him in shock and says, "What sort of woman do you think I am?!!?!"

The man smiles and says, "We've already established that, now we're just settling on a price."

It's a common claim by many that everyone has their price. More often than not, it's a comfort to people who have already compromised or have no absolute basis of morality to rationalize to themselves that they're not any worse than anyone else. The fact is though, that there are people of principle who can't be bought at any price and who believe there is right and wrong to guide us regardless of circumstances. It's a foreign concept to most in our society, because the most common basis of ethics is something called Utilitarianism which dictates that the course of action that should be followed is the one the causes the least amount of pain to the least number of people. It's another word for situational ethics.

For Christians there are two ways to approach the issue. One is theorhetical and to focus upon right and wrong as it's own reward. It doesn't necessarily feel wrong but this ties to the Law of the Old Testament that the New Testament refers to as a "task master" meaning that the person who tries to live up to this code of perfection, are themselves slaves.

The other is relational and it operates on the assumption that as we are loved by God, by grace outside of any merit of our own, we in turn, because we love God and wish to please Him, will seek to do right, based on who we are in relationship to God.

It's not always easy to tell from the outside what drives and motivates a person. Jesus clearly taught that it's not enough to look good and do the right thing when viewed from the outside. God looks on the heart and He wants us to love Him first and foremost and based on that we'll do the right thing, secure in the knowledge that God loves us and we're saved by Him, not our works. Works have importance in other contexts, but they are never the basis of God's love for us. He doesn't need our performance to love us. God looks upon those in Christ and see us through the lens of Christ's already finished work of love and grace toward us.

[waynepii]

... Taliban terrorist put a gun to my head or hers and say refute Christ, deny him and you may live, I'd rather have them shoot us.

Sort of off-topic, but this presents an interesting reversal of Pascal's wager. If you let yourself be killed rather than denouncing your religion and your god does exist, you enter heaven as a martyr. If, however, your god doesn't exist, you are just dead - needlessly dead.

Also, couldn't choosing to be killed rather than simply denying Jesus be considered suicide, perhaps even by god? If so, isn't it then possible you could end up dead AND condemned to hell for committing suicide?

Wouldn't the safer thing be to (overtly) deny Christ (he'd surely know what is in your heart) and continue to live and serve him?

BTW I assume you meant "shoot me" rather than "shoot us" - or would you actually let them shoot your girl when you might have been able to save her by saying you renounced Jesus?

[neo-x]

Sort of off-topic, but this presents an interesting reversal of Pascal's wager. If you let yourself be killed rather than denouncing your religion and your god does exist, you enter heaven as a martyr. If, however, your god doesn't exist, you are just dead - needlessly dead.

Indeed, but then I will be needlessly dead 60 years after as well. no harm done.

Also, couldn't choosing to be killed rather than simply denying Jesus be considered suicide, perhaps even by god? If so, isn't it then possible you could end up dead AND condemned to hell for committing suicide?

No, its called dying for what you believe and since it is not considered suicide your second part of this statement becomes null and void.

Wouldn't the safer thing be to (overtly) deny Christ (he'd surely know what is in your heart) and continue to live and serve him?

This is not safer, it is called coward mentality and is very easily practiced by many, but sorry, I do not hold to this. The question isn't - God knows what is in my heart, the question is can I stand up for what I believe, to what I hold dear.

BTW I assume you meant "shoot me" rather than "shoot us" - or would you actually let them shoot your girl when you might have been able to save her by saying you renounced Jesus?

no, I actually meant shoot us bcuz she is like me when it comes to faith

Tell you what, i read a story about a pastor serving in communist Russia in the late 50's, he and his family was arrested and taken to a site where the pastor was told that he could deny Christ or else, they dig up a pit, put his family in between and told him that they would bury them alive. He resented and they started putting in the dirt, midway through the pastor was probably on the brink of telling them that he would deny Christ, let his family live. But his wife probably saw what was about to happen and told him that it is alright and then told her children that "tonight we shall dine in heaven with the King of Kings, do not worry." They buried his family alive, put him in prison as an example for others. he got released when USSR was about to break and wrote the book.

Anyways, I would not expect someone who is ashamed of his faith or an atheist to understand such actions and frankly I do not care what anyone would think about it either.

[waynepii]

Sort of off-topic, but this presents an interesting reversal of Pascal's wager. If you let yourself be killed rather than denouncing your religion and your god does exist, you enter heaven as a martyr. If, however, your god doesn't exist, you are just dead - needlessly dead.

Indeed, but then I will be needlessly dead 60 years after as well. no harm done.

Also, couldn't choosing to be killed rather than simply denying Jesus be considered suicide, perhaps even by god? If so, isn't it then possible you could end up dead AND condemned to hell for committing suicide?

No, its called dying for what you believe and since it is not considered suicide your second part of this statement becomes null and void.

That's what YOU believe, how do you know that god wouldn't consider choosing to be killed to be suicide?

Wouldn't the safer thing be to (overtly) deny Christ (he'd surely know what is in your heart) and continue to live and serve him?

This is not safer, it is called coward mentality and is very easily practiced by many, but sorry, I do not hold to this. The question isn't - God knows what is in my heart, the question is can I stand up for what I believe, to what I hold dear.

I can understand "standing up for what you believe in", and even giving your life because it furthers a cause you believe in. But I look at such stands in terms of "what is the possible cost?" versus "what is the possible benefit?". Would I risk my life to try to protect others - yes. In fact I have on occasion, I was a member of a volunteer fire department for a number of years and was involved in several rescues, at least one of which was downright "sticky". Would I risk my life for an idea that would benefit others - yes. Actually I've done that as well, I participated in some of the civil rights marches and protests during the '60's and '70's. Would I throw my life away on an idea where doing so would not benefit anyone? Not a chance!

BTW I assume you meant "shoot me" rather than "shoot us" - or would you actually let them shoot your girl when you might have been able to save her by saying you renounced Jesus?

no, I actually meant shoot us bcuz she is like me when it comes to faith.

I would never presume to include anyone else in the consequences of a stand I chose to take.

Tell you what, i read a story about a pastor serving in communist Russia in the late 50's, he and his family was arrested and taken to a site where the pastor was told that he could deny Christ or else, they dig up a pit, put his family in between and told him that they would bury them alive. He resented and they started putting in the dirt, midway through the pastor was probably on the brink of telling them that he would deny Christ, let his family live. But his wife probably saw what was about to happen and told him that it is alright and then told her children that "tonight we shall dine in heaven with the King of Kings, do not worry." They buried his family alive, put him in prison as an example for others. he got released when USSR was about to break and wrote the book.

So, if I understood this correctly, his wife said to go ahead and kill the children (and herself), and this is considered a GOOD thing??? And the pastor lived and wrote a book about it, presumably about how brave his wife was? How were his wife's actions any different than if she had aborted her children and committed suicide?

Anyways, I would not expect someone who is ashamed of his faith or an atheist to understand such actions ...

That's certainly true.

... and frankly I do not care what anyone would think about it either.

I have no doubt of that either. But do you not see how dangerous such blind faith is?

[zacchaeus]

Its not suicide to die just because we won't denounce Jesus because someone wants us too or they will kill us, no more than it is to get in a vehicle or plain with a knowing risk of possibilities no matter how great or small the percentage of chance is. We don't know that the guy who is presumably going to attempt to kill us want miss or that the gun won't misfire, or that I want kill him before he kills me. If I defend myself does that make me a murderer? Not hardly... It would be no difference then people choosing to die everyday because of sin and when they do die, dieing and going to hell, except its forever!!! Maybe we cannot fathom forever, but I know the risk is not great enough to cost my life, again no matter how great or small the percentage of chance is. GOD is also faithful and boy is He just... and take that text, which is scripture, however you want. If we die and go no where, which we want, then we loose nothing; if you die and go to hell if you don't accept Jesus, which you will, well then that SUCKS!!!

I leave you with this quote from someones post I came across on this website...

"In every case, the fact that we're here is a miracle. Therefore, everyone who has an opinion about how we came to be, believes in miracles. Which miracle is more realistic? The one about Jesus rising from the dead, or the one about pond scum coming to life, and gradually evolving into humans? Indeed, what a leap of blind faith it is to choose the former..."-reactionary

yet, where did the world, atoms, meteorites, matter and energy (which scientist hold cannot be created or destroyed), the earth for the pond scum to come alive and or crash into, or space, or the actual pond scum... everything results back to who created, and that who created is GOD!!!

[zacchaeus]

Its not suicide to die just because we won't denounce Jesus because someone wants us to or they will kill us, no more than it is to get in a vehicle or plane with a knowing risk of possibilities no matter how great or small the percentage of chance is. We don't know that the guy who is presumably going to attempt to kill us want miss or that the gun won't misfire, or that I want kill him before he kills me. If I defend myself does that make me a murderer? Not hardly... It would be no difference then people choosing to die everyday because of sin and when they do die, dieing and going to hell, except its forever!!! Maybe we cannot fathom forever, but I know the risk is not great enough to cost my life, again no matter how great or small the percentage of chance is. GOD is also faithful and boy is He just... and take that text, which is scripture, however you want. If we die and go no where, which we want, then we loose nothing; if you die and go to hell if you don't accept Jesus, which you will, well then that SUCKS!!!

I leave you with this quote from someones post I came across on this website...

"In every case, the fact that we're here is a miracle. Therefore, everyone who has an opinion about how we came to be, believes in miracles. Which miracle is more realistic? The one about Jesus rising from the dead, or the one about pond scum coming to life, and gradually evolving into humans? Indeed, what a leap of blind faith it is to choose the former..."-reactionary

yet, where did the world, atoms, meteorites, matter and energy (which scientist hold cannot be created or destroyed), the earth for the pond scum to come alive and or crash into, or space, or the actual pond scum... everything results back to who created, and that who created is GOD!!!

...its also not a blind faith, for we know of whom we believe in, but it is quite the contrary, it is an intelligent FAITH

[zackabba]

Wouldn't the safer thing be to (overtly) deny Christ (he'd surely know what is in your heart) and continue to live and serve him?

"But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Matt 10:33)

"For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it." (Luke 9:24)

"If we deny Him, He will also deny us." (2 Timothy 2:12)



That should clear up anything.

Jesus also said that whatever comes out of your heart shows who your heart truly belongs to.

We haven't brought anything into this world, and can bring nothing out of it.



Say you had denied Him in front of Him and lived. First of all, I don't know what truly happens after that, and never want too...but what if you just didn't believe in God anymore? I'm not saying you wouldn't, but there are consequences for what you do here. You're also going to have to tell Christ, in His face, why you denied Him. You would say "Well, I could have served you more and saved more souls for you...isn't that what you want?" He would probably say "If you hadn't denied me, that man that had the gun to your head would have found me."....or He would have just said one of the above quotes.

[MarcusOfLycia]

You're main issue is a common one; you think like a person who doesn't believe in God! I know that seems obvious, but you have to try to in order for any of Christianity to make sense in the first place. For instance, we believe that this life is temporary for good reason and that God has better things planned later. Do you really think God would consider it suicide for us to end this temporary life pointing at Him because someone else wants to kill us for what we believe? He has all eternity to work with! Neo-x never said he had blind faith, either. He said he wouldn't care what people thought of something he did. You equate that to blind faith? Most would equate it to being an adult and not letting what other people say be the deciding factor in what we choose to do.


I noticed another problem in your reasoning too where you said:
"Also, couldn't choosing to be killed rather than simply denying Jesus be considered suicide, perhaps even by god? If so, isn't it then possible you could end up dead AND condemned to hell for committing suicide?"

The response you recieved:
"No, its called dying for what you believe and since it is not considered suicide your second part of this statement becomes null and void."

You then went on to say 'well, that's what YOU believe'. What a worthless response! If you were really going to respond that way, why ask the question at all!? Obviously that's what he believes! But the real kicker is that he says he's a Christian and you say you aren't. Who would be better to give you accurate data on Christ? You know enough to know what Christians believe on the matter of Jesus as God, but it just seems absolutely silly how you approached this... since this could easily swing both ways for more robust silliness/worthlessness (eg "What if God sent people to hell for asking silly questions." - "Well, I don't believe in God so there's nothing to worry about." - "Well that's what YOU believe.")

[neo-x]

@Wayne

That's what YOU believe, how do you know that god wouldn't consider choosing to be killed to be suicide?

Because I am not an agnostic, because the Bible tell me that people can kill you for following Christ. On a side note, can't you see the difference between, dying for what you believe in and suicide. Suicide is an act which is a result of, dismay, pain, hopelessness or guilt. Dying for what you believe asks for courage, hope, dignity, the will to evaluate everything you hold dear in your life and weigh it against your faith and coming out with it. It is not easy. And is it so hard to understand - the difference between suicide and choosing to die for what you believe. Surely, you can not be that Naive!

I can understand "standing up for what you believe in", and even giving your life because it furthers a cause you believe in. But I look at such stands in terms of "what is the possible cost?" versus "what is the possible benefit?". Would I risk my life to try to protect others - yes. In fact I have on occasion, I was a member of a volunteer fire department for a number of years and was involved in several rescues, at least one of which was downright "sticky". Would I risk my life for an idea that would benefit others - yes. Actually I've done that as well, I participated in some of the civil rights marches and protests during the '60's and '70's. Would I throw my life away on an idea where doing so would not benefit anyone? Not a chance!

Cost and benefit is a good thing to evaluate, I do not go against it, but to me there is no greater cost than self respect and your faith. I would never compromise on either. Because denial of either will result in me not being the man I want to be. Risking your life for others and not for your own self is quite interesting when put to test a little further down my post. But even if you throw faith out, have you read nothing about the people throughout history, who chose to die for their belief rather than accept the other side, rat out and live in their shadows? You should, read about Sophie Scholl (white rose), Bhagat Singh, Lady Jane Grey, William Wallace, Sir Thomas More, Joac of Arc, John Huss, Socrates.

Have you read Socrates, why did he chose to die? he was't a Christian? why didn't he flee. Because he believed in something and that it defined him as a person and denial of such would result in the loss of all moral grounds rather than his life, like a coward who couldn't face the consequences of his belief. Would you consider Socrates to have committed suicide by deciding not to run for his life?

So, if I understood this correctly, his wife said to go ahead and kill the children (and herself), and this is considered a GOOD thing??? And the pastor lived and wrote a book about it, presumably about how brave his wife was? How were his wife's actions any different than if she had aborted her children and committed suicide?

Sorry Wayne, you do not understand the concept at all. It is called the right thing to do, the thing that on all moral grounds defines your personality, even if you do not like it, in principle you either die for it or you rat out.

I imagine what kind of soldier you or anyone with cost to benefit mentality will make. You will kill for your country because it is the right thing to do, whether you like it or not. And if you are captured, and your enemy offered you freedom, all you have to do is to just spit on your flag and go home or else die. what will you do? How will your cost and benefit apply here. Would you spit on your flag, because it would not hurt anyone and you dying can not possibly benefit your country by dying like this. I mean you were prepared to risk your life for others but no way you are going to give it away if it benefits no one (as you said 'Not a chance'). so what would be your answer Wayne, would you spit on your flag with your cost and benefit mentality, (remember your death benefits no one, not others, not even you), come home, live like nothing happened, a traitor, a coward. Or on principle you would like to be killed as also your fellow soldiers died. And if you choose death (which I doubt by your ideas) does that make you suicidal or brave? and what if you chose to die, would that be considered equal to the idea, if you had just committed suicide back at your home. This way a suicide equals a death of a soldier who chooses to die for his country rather than dishonor his nation's flag(see the similarity between, aborting and committing suicide or be buried to death for not denying your faith)

So spit on your flag and go home or die? What will it be? I am interested on how would answer this, Wayne

But to answer your question about the pastor. It is not about being considered a good thing, no but I do consider it as the right thing, the thing that on all moral grounds defines you as a person. And it is very different than aborting and committing suicide, I explained that above. The path to God is not wide, it is very narrow and hard and few try to walk on it. Btw the book wasn't about his wife, the book was about the soviet Christians who suffered at the hands of communism and atheism.

I would never presume to include anyone else in the consequences of a stand I chose to take.

I am not deciding for someone else, merely telling you that I know my girl, and I know like me, she would choose to be killed rather deny Christ. Just like you know your wife or girl that what food she likes? which flower she loves? what will she do if some certain thing went wrong?. That is how I Know.

I have no doubt of that either. But do you not see how dangerous such blind faith is?

Do you think, I am suicidal, that it is easy to come up with these kind of thoughts as plan of action, that I do not see the danger it poses, that I want to die, that life holds nothing dear to me. WOW, you presume much. If you think like that, you are wrong, it is wrong to presume that people having this kind of thoughts would not value life. To think that people like me are looking for an excuse to die, being stamped as a Martyr and go to heaven. sorry this is what Muslims train people like, Not Christians.

But let me tell you why I seem so ready in this kind of thought plan. I live in a country that is currently the breeding place for all the major fundamentalist/ extremist Muslim groups, including terrorists. And here Christians are killed or persecuted every week. Just yesterday, they burned down a church and killed two Christian teenagers, ages 14 and 15. And they didn't kill them by shooting, no. They beat them to death by wooden sticks, in the middle of the street, with a crowd watching and the police as well. No one came to their rescue and no one stopped them. In 2007, pastors from all over Pakistan, from active preaching denominations were kidnapped, tortured, killed, a few were left alive to be an example to others. Including an uncle of mine. I could give you a lot of examples but this will suffice. So this is how it works for Christians here. My dad is an evangelist, and it is now twice that my family has received death threats, phone calls, warning letters - to stop preaching or else be killed. Do you think we are suicidal or we do not have emotions. Again, I could rat out but that would be an insult not only to my own conscience but to my faith as well. Not to mention that I saw a lot of people who never denied their belief, their faith even if the cost was their life. I have been in front of a gun in a robbery, and I know how it feels and it is not easy, it is not quick and there is nothing good to feel about it.

And no this is not an emotional plea to understand my POV, these are the facts, these things still happen and no matter how much I do not like to be in a situation where I have to choose between death or love and life, I still know it can happen. And if it does, I hope to do the right thing.

[neo-x]

I noticed another problem in your reasoning too where you said:
"Also, couldn't choosing to be killed rather than simply denying Jesus be considered suicide, perhaps even by god? If so, isn't it then possible you could end up dead AND condemned to hell for committing suicide?"

The response you recieved:
"No, its called dying for what you believe and since it is not considered suicide your second part of this statement becomes null and void."

You then went on to say 'well, that's what YOU believe'. What a worthless response! If you were really going to respond that way, why ask the question at all!? Obviously that's what he believes! But the real kicker is that he says he's a Christian and you say you aren't. Who would be better to give you accurate data on Christ? You know enough to know what Christians believe on the matter of Jesus as God, but it just seems absolutely silly how you approached this... since this could easily swing both ways for more robust silliness/worthlessness (eg "What if God sent people to hell for asking silly questions." - "Well, I don't believe in God so there's nothing to worry about." - "Well that's what YOU believe."

Marcus,

Neo-x never said he had blind faith, either. He said he wouldn't care what people thought of something he did. You equate that to blind faith? Most would equate it to being an adult and not letting what other people say be the deciding factor in what we choose to do.

Thanx for putting it in the right perspective, bro. Btw his logic is errant, I have asked him a few questions in my latest post and I hope he answers, that is if he answers at all but it is going to give us a very clear view about what he believes, and what kind of soldier he would make

[Echoside]

Tell you what, i read a story about a pastor serving in communist Russia in the late 50's, he and his family was arrested and taken to a site where the pastor was told that he could deny Christ or else, they dig up a pit, put his family in between and told him that they would bury them alive. He resented and they started putting in the dirt, midway through the pastor was probably on the brink of telling them that he would deny Christ, let his family live. But his wife probably saw what was about to happen and told him that it is alright and then told her children that "tonight we shall dine in heaven with the King of Kings, do not worry." They buried his family alive, put him in prison as an example for others. he got released when USSR was about to break and wrote the book.

Anyways, I would not expect someone who is ashamed of his faith or an atheist to understand such actions and frankly I do not care what anyone would think about it either.

While it's nice and all to die for what you believe in, this example is extremely disturbing. The pastor could falsely deny christ with words, knowing in his heart the gospel is true, and save his children from a horrific death. Those kids probably weren't even old enough to fully understand anything that was going on, telling them "do not worry" is as good as useless against the incoming death by suffocation. I'm not so sure this is really denying christ in any meaningful way, here's a quote from George Orwell's 1984 depicting the mindset someone I imagine would feel like when denying christ.

"And perhaps you might pretend, afterwards, that it was only a trick and that you just said it to make them stop and didn't really mean it. But that isn't true. At the time when it happens you do mean it. You think there's no other way of saving yourself, and you're quite ready to save yourself that way. You want it to happen to the other person. You don't give a damn what they suffer. All you care about is yourself."

Selfish desperation and the sparing of innocents over something much more minor than the torture in this book seem like two different things to me, but then again this is my first impression maybe to a Christian this choice is a no brainer.

[FearlessLlearsy]

but then again this is my first impression maybe to a Christian this choice is a no brainer.

You said it right,
The ways of Jesus Christ are very alien to the ones of this world.

Jesus Christ once said: Do not fear the one who kills body, but fear the one who kills body and soul,

[neo-x]

While it's nice and all to die for what you believe in, this example is extremely disturbing. The pastor could falsely deny christ with words, knowing in his heart the gospel is true, and save his children from a horrific death. Those kids probably weren't even old enough to fully understand anything that was going on, telling them "do not worry" is as good as useless against the incoming death by suffocation. I'm not so sure this is really denying christ in any meaningful way, here's a quote from George Orwell's 1984 depicting the mindset someone I imagine would feel like when denying christ.

"And perhaps you might pretend, afterwards, that it was only a trick and that you just said it to make them stop and didn't really mean it. But that isn't true. At the time when it happens you do mean it. You think there's no other way of saving yourself, and you're quite ready to save yourself that way. You want it to happen to the other person. You don't give a damn what they suffer. All you care about is yourself."

Selfish desperation and the sparing of innocents over something much more minor than the torture in this book seem like two different things to me, but then again this is my first impression maybe to a Christian this choice is a no brainer.

I understand what you are saying but you have to understand this happened to millions of people, thousands of pastors. I am not talking about a single case., it is not really about saving life alone. What if, as you say he had denied Christ and saved his family and then what? You think they would ever be able follow their beliefs, no. That was the whole point of killing them in the first place. And the people who killed them would succeed in making people loose their hope. Also the same children that were saved would grow up in a society where religious people can be killed for the sake of delusional greater peace or good. Imagine they will adhere to the same philosophy they see around them and in a place where anyone believing in a God can be killed or tortured, they will actually add up to that kind of society. They will be two more additions to the immoral and unjust regime. It is simply denying everything good that you stood for.

As I said earlier, it not a price for your life but for your faith. Somethings you just can not compromise on. I even showed by example in my last post how this problem can also occur if one is outside of religion and the course of action is left again to death for your belief or convert. Please do not take this as ignorance or blind following to religion, it is nothing like that. You do not spy or turn against your own country or be a traitor because someone is threatening your children, would anyone do it? It is a matter of principle and self respect, nothing more. Hope you get my point. I am not saying it is good or bad, it is the only conscious choice, like it or not. God forbid anyone would be in this type of situation but there are unjust and cruel systems and men in the world and it does happen.